Mitzvah to Cure on the Sabbath

[Ben Avraham]

Funny that you picked that Psalm as evidence. The heading for that area of study is "God will redeem my life from the grave"

Psalm 49:20 Though while he lives he congratulates himself-- And though men praise you when you do well for yourself-- He shall go to the generation of his fathers; They will never see the light. Man in his pomp, yet without understanding, Is like the beasts that perish.…

The proud man goes to an eternal grave, but it's implied the righteous man does not.

HaShem will redeem my life from death; from falling in battle. That's the meaning of the text. From the grave, no one can be redeemed. It is implied or you are implying that the righteous man does not go to an eternal grave? Can you provide an evidence of one that didn't? No, you can't and, you don't want to know why. Because it is obvious. Understand?

 

[Kemosloby]

HaShem will redeem my life from death; from falling in battle. That's the meaning of the text. From the grave, no one can be redeemed. It is implied or you are implying that the righteous man does not go to an eternal grave? Can you provide an evidence of one that didn't? No, you can't and, you don't want to know why. Because it is obvious. Understand?

Not so obvious to everybody. Listen to the song "Ain't no grave gonna hold my body down"

 

[Tumah]

Yes, the boy had died according to the peasants who had no idea about resuscitation.

And according to Elishah as it says in verse 32.
But regardless, the boy's father being just as much a peasant as his mother, would have also assumed that his child was dead. So he wouldn't have told his wife to get doctor just as much as his wife wouldn't have gone to get one, expecting as they were, that there son was dead.
That being the case, you have no proof that anyone suspected the boy was alive, and therefore no proof that the father thought his wife was going on some healing trip that normally took place on the Sabbath and holidays.

Basically you're trying to read what you want into verses that aren't saying it.

The body of a dead person would never get warm after a few physical tries at resuscitation by someone who knew that the boy had got a sunstroke. Elijah was a master in the school of the prophets. He knew what he was doing. The disciples of the prophets did not learn only to interpret dreams and visions but also some cases of health emergency.

I should point out, that the chapter in question is 2 King 4, to 1 Kings 17.
Can you prove that prophets learned First Aid? Or is that just another thing from Abrahamism?

That was not the point of the thread. The thread was about the mitzvah to cure on the Sabbath that Christians love to slander the Pharisees for forbidding to cure on the Sabbath when they never did.

Well you're not doing a really good job at that. For one thing, the Pharisees don't learn out commandments from the books of the Prophets or Writings. So if you can't prove that from the Pentateuch, you're already making up your own thing. For another, reinterpreting words for your convenience isn't going to win you any arguments.

You still resist to understand the thread. The father knew why the mother had gone for the prophet and revealed that it was a mitzvah to cure on the Sabbath.

Yes, I understand that that's what you want to say. And I've already disproved that possibility on more than one ground.

Yes, Christian fabrications to have some reason to slander the Jewish authorities.

Yes, we are talking about the NT. Obviously.

What you have just said above, makes absolutely no sense. All the Christian grudge against the Pharisees had its
origin in the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

What you have just said above makes no sense. I asked you how you intend to defend Pharisaic beliefs without knowing what the Pharisees actually believe and you respond about where Christian grudge stems from.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Not so obvious to everybody. Listen to the song "Ain't no grave gonna hold my body down"

I am sorry if I ended up by raining on your parade! I know how important it is for Christians to think of an eternal life somewhere in heaven and I seem to be trying to kidnap that faith of yours. If you feel complete by feeding on that dream of yours, please do and be happy!

 

[rosends]

You have got to read your Bible aka the Tanach, I hope.

I read it all the time. You made a claim about what it says and I can't recall, in all I have read, any text which supports your contention so I have asked you to substantiate your claim. I hope you don't find that an unreasonable request. Check post 7 in which I indicate exactly what I am looking for.

 

[Kemosloby]

I am sorry if I ended up by raining on your parade! I know how important it is for Christians to think of an eternal life somewhere in heaven and I seem to be trying to kidnap that faith of yours. If you feel complete by feeding on that dream of yours, please do and be happy!

Likewise, if the abyss welcomes you. sing a song of joy.

 

[Akivah]

Jesus has been dead for 2000 years. It is impossible to be lord in the grave, the eternal home of the dead. (Psalm 49:12,20) Now, please, would you provide us with a quote to evidence your saying that Jesus spoke to Moses? Thank you.

You know that you are looking like a hypocrite, right? You demand that @Kemosloby provide biblical quotes to support his assertions, but you refuse @rosends request to provide biblical quotes to support your own assertions.

 

[Ben Avraham]

You know that you are looking like a hypocrite, right? You demand that @Kemosloby provide biblical quotes to support his assertions, but you refuse @rosends request to provide biblical quotes to support your own assertions.

Weel! Are going to provide me the quote I requested that Jesus spoke to Moses, or are you not? You guys never
cease amazing me!

 

[Ben Avraham]

Likewise, if the abyss welcomes you. sing a song of joy.

Don't worry! You will not be left out. The abyss welcomes us all. Jews and Gentiles. Some sooner, others later, but the abyss is patient. He knows we will all be there.

 

[Kemosloby]

Weel! Are going to provide me the quote I requested that Jesus spoke to Moses, or are you not? You guys never
cease amazing me!

Exodus 9:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: "Let my people go, so that they may worship me."

 

[Coder]

Hi Ben,

All the Christian grudge against the Pharisees had its origin in the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

Interesting, of the four Books, the Book of Matthew does seem to portray Jesus most harshly toward Jewish leaders.

Still, I think the teachings about avoiding excess legalism are good for both Christians and Jews. My experience is that Jewish people vary in this. I had a dear Hasidic Jewish neighbor (whom I admire) who once walked a 1/4 mile to my home from his, to ask me if I could turn off the stove because it was the Sabbath. As much as I have such a great respect for his moral and family life in general, as a Christian, I would consider it absurd to walk 1/4 mile and back but not expend the energy to toggle a switch (and yes, I went with him and did as he asked ). Most other Jewish people that I know would think nothing of turning on/off electrical devices etc. on the Sabbath and I find that more reasonable.

By the way, do you think St. Paul's letters preceded the Four Gospels?

 

[Ben Avraham]

Hi Ben,

Interesting, of the four Books, the Book of Matthew does seem to portray Jesus most harshly toward Jewish leaders.

Still, I think the teachings about avoiding excess legalism are good for both Christians and Jews. My experience is that Jewish people vary in this. I had a dear Hasidic Jewish neighbor (whom I admire) who once walked a 1/4 mile to my home from his, to ask me if I could turn off the stove because it was the Sabbath. As much as I have such a great respect for his moral and family life in general, as a Christian, I would consider it absurd to walk 1/4 mile and back but not expend the energy to toggle a switch (and yes, I went with him and did as he asked ). Most other Jewish people that I know would think nothing of turning on/off electrical devices etc. on the Sabbath and I find that more reasonable.

By the way, do you think St. Paul's letters preceded the Four Gospels?

Yes, most definitely, Paul wrote his Letters quite a time before the four gospels. Hence, the gospels were written after the Pauline idea of Christianity. Now, as your Hasidic Jewish neighbor is concerned, he was only building a "fence around the Torah" aka making the Sabbath remote from being violated. The gospel authors were not portraying the hostility of Jesus towards the leaders but that of Paul's.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Exodus 9:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: "Let my people go, so that they may worship me."

Nice try! But the Lord Who spoke to Moses in Exodus 9:1 was HaShem, not Jesus the son of man aka a mortal. The expression "son of man" in Hebrew means "mortal."

 

[Ben Avraham]

You know that you are looking like a hypocrite, right? You demand that @Kemosloby provide biblical quotes to support his assertions, but you refuse @rosends request to provide biblical quotes to support your own assertions.

And did you know that you have just broken the Golden Rule? And did you further know that the Golden Rule covers the whole second part of the Decalogue? Serious transgression right there!

 

[Tumah]

And did you know that you have just broken the Golden Rule? And did you further know that the Golden Rule covers the whole second part of the Decalogue? Serious transgression right there!

You should probably explain to @Akivah how pointing out your hypocrisy equates to breaking the Golden Rule. You should also explain to him what makes the Golden Rule a more serious transgression than any other in the Torah.

 

[Coder]

Yes, most definitely, Paul wrote his Letters quite a time before the four gospels. Hence, the gospels were written after the Pauline idea of Christianity. ... The gospel authors were not portraying the hostility of Jesus towards the leaders but that of Paul's.

Fascinating Ben. I had always presumed the opposite in time sequence.

 

[Kemosloby]

Nice try! But the Lord Who spoke to Moses in Exodus 9:1 was HaShem, not Jesus the son of man aka a mortal. The expression "son of man" in Hebrew means "mortal."

What does HaShem mean?

 

[rosends]

What does HaShem mean?

Literally, "the name".

 

[Flankerl]

Weel! Are going to provide me the quote I requested that Jesus spoke to Moses, or are you not? You guys never
cease amazing me!

> You guys never cease amazing me!
> Joined: Sep 4, 2016

Hello new account of an old user, how are we today?

 

[Ben Avraham]

> You guys never cease amazing me!
> Joined: Sep 4, 2016

Hello new account of an old user, how are we today?

I am fine Flankerl, how about yourself? What are you up to? What's your opinion about doing good works on the Sabbath? For instance, to go through the struggle of resuscitation to save a boy who had a sunstroke? Don't you think it was a mitzvah for Elijah to save that boy?