Mixed-matched paganism?

[Unveiled Artist]

Many of us pagans, but certainly not all, have been influenced by abrahamic religion. A pagan, I read threads back, said once he speaks to his gods (pantheon) in abrahamic language because that is the language he know best.

Sometimes our chosen correct path is a part of us that what we have learned from our former faiths (which Im sure some pagans admit they do) influences our present and we feel it like being hit from a bolt of lightening when it pops up for no reason.

I wonder, why not (if we have not) pagans learn from our former faiths, appreciate it, and know how they have shaped you as pagans?

I dont want to say some pagans dont do this, I certainly do, just I just think a good healthy way to see a free life as a pagan is to see the blessings you recieved in your former faith(s).

--

I was also thinking how the definition of paganism is so broad that almost anyone outside the abrahamic faith can claim he is. How or should we define how someone else sees themself as a pagan? It reminds of christians trying to define other christians relationship with God. Are we doing the same? If so, honestly, why?

I just find paganism, if I defined it as a belief system, is very mix matched that people who are embracing their faith or called to it have a hard time finding themselves in it. Especially if all they know is abrahamic associations outside in the real would (not on the internet) and are trying hard to separate the two.

I know it is an indivdual and private journey. Many of us will use this as an answer after a litttle while of sharing generalities about the pagan faith to people who are pagan. It just seems we are sometimes telling others who are pagans and who are not.

I just thought I share and ask this here because it has been bothering me lately. We, pagans in general not specifically RF readers, should help each out on our journies. Some of us, like myself, are trying to build relationship with ancestors, finding rituals that click, find outlook and our inlook. While others are pulled to panthons, learning what is meant to revere the gods and so forth. This is our faith.

I know we are influenced by formed faiths. Some see their formed faiths as enemies (from how it looks). In MHO dont be to mean to people who love what they used to follow. That is what a path does it shapes our lives. Former and present.

Another thing, off topic, I was thinking how pagans here, if not private, how have you journied from your former faiths? Have you learned from it? Does it, in little positive ways shapes who you are as a pagan?

I am not young anymore; and, time is running out. When they say life is short, it really is. I just thought that even those us that have been pagan for a long time share their thoughts.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

I wonder, why not (if we have not) pagans learn from our former faiths, appreciate it, and know how they have shaped you as pagans? I don't want to say some pagans don't do this, I certainly do, just I just think a good healthy way to see a free life as a pagan is to see the blessings you received in your former faith(s).

How true! It would be a very strange faith that cannot teach one anything worth having. I'm always surprised and saddened by the violent reaction of some Neopagans against their former religions. Sometimes it even results in the rejection of parts of their new religion: Hellenism is full of statements like "there is one God, the ruler and father of all things", yet some are determined to deny this, apparently just to reject their former Christianity!

I was also thinking how the definition of paganism is so broad that almost anyone outside the Abrahamic faith can claim he is.

I use it as a term for any religion that has grown up without being specifically founded, with "honorary membership" for Neopagans like Druids. Whether there are several paganisms or whether all such religions are "denominations" of a single Paganism, I'm still thinking about. I've certainly learned a lot from considering the faiths of India and China, but I'm always concerned about adopting a pick and mix approach. Catholicism and Calvinism are both Christianity, but if one tried to be a Calvinist Catholic the result would be a mess!

I am not young anymore; and, time is running out. When they say life is short, it really is.

The same here! But every stage of life has its own goals: we start learning and we end (if we're wise) learning.

 

[Nietzsche]

Many of us pagans, but certainly not all, have been influenced by abrahamic religion. A pagan, I read threads back, said once he speaks to his gods (pantheon) in abrahamic language because that is the language he know best.

What do you mean by that? Abrahamic language, that is.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What do you mean by that? Abrahamic language, that is.

Oh. I asked a poster one time how he (and other pagans) communicate or pray in their faith or something or other. He said he felt comfortable refering to the divine as God rather than Divinex conscioisness etc, because christian language was all he know and wanted to know when communicating with his pantheon.

Not many pagans I know relate their god to the god of abraham. It was an interesting couple of posts.

 

[Nietzsche]

Oh. I asked a poster one time how he (and other pagans) communicate or pray in their faith or something or other. He said he felt comfortable refering to the divine as God rather than Divinex conscioisness etc, because christian language was all he know and wanted to know when communicating with his pantheon.

Not many pagans I know relate their god to the god of abraham. It was an interesting couple of posts.

Ah, that makes more sense.

As for the topic at hand;

I find nothing all that useful in Christianity or its predecessor, Judaism. Christianity in particular teaches that one should be inherently ashamed, that we are born inherently broken, and must bend our knee to the God who made us that way in order to be delivered from it. It endorses false humility and corrupts even the notion of 'love' into something despicable, something that you are effectively forced to feel towards that 'God'. It teaches its followers to just "lay down and take it", because you'll be rewarded after death. There is no room in Christianity for respect either of yourself or of others, or for pride you have justly earned. In fact, all successful deeds are attributed to God, rather than to their performer. It robs humanity even of its own triumphs in that regard, while laying all our misdeeds directly at our feet. It teaches people to be sheep, going so far as to flat-out say it.

So no, I do not want my faith to have anything to do with Christianity if I can help it. I may

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ah, that makes more sense.

As for the topic at hand;

I find nothing all that useful in Christianity or its predecessor, Judaism. Christianity in particular teaches that one should be inherently ashamed, that we are born inherently broken, and must bend our knee to the God who made us that way in order to be delivered from it. It endorses false humility and corrupts even the notion of 'love' into something despicable, something that you are effectively forced to feel towards that 'God'. It teaches its followers to just "lay down and take it", because you'll be rewarded after death. There is no room in Christianity for respect either of yourself or of others, or for pride you have justly earned. In fact, all successful deeds are attributed to God, rather than to their performer. It robs humanity even of its own triumphs in that regard, while laying all our misdeeds directly at our feet. It teaches people to be sheep, going so far as to flat-out say it.

So no, I do not want my faith to have anything to do with Christianity if I can help it. I may

Wow. I can definitely see why you'd say that. I mean, when I practiced, at first I thought the sacraments were beautiful. How I interpreted God (which I found was contrary to Christianity years later) who "forgave me" of my sins took the weight off my shoulders. Then I realized that people can do pretty much anything and go to confession and be forgiven. I love confession and I can see how it can be abused to followers not seriously in tuned with their faith. I started seeing it from the opposite perspective than your experience. I started see how the community came towards Christianity and the differing ways they viewed communion and the Eucharist. There wasn't harmony in the sense that priests told me some altering things I'd hear from congregants. Even more so, having different outlook I had for myself in regards to Christianity. I also didn't care for every one saying they have a sinful nature. It got so depressing that I felt I had to go to confession even for sins I had not committed. (This was only three years ago!)

I agree, it leaves little respect for the self a part from attributing your heart to devote yourself not your doing but that of God. I know that can go two ways; but, I rarely see it positive on both sides. The constant "I am bad and God is good" neglected the right for a Christian to say "I AM good and I DESERVE to be loved." (not yelling, more emphasis). I believe we all have a Buddha-nature (or true nature/wisdom of the Buddha free of sin, for lack of better description) and this lead me into humility to be grateful for life not yearning for the next.

What I like about the faith is something quite simple without the doctrine added to it: In order to live to your new life you must die to your old. We do this all the time when we find new jobs, have family, find new friends, and so forth. Even when we go to the barbers, we shed the old cut for the new. I feel this is universal and something I learned as we learn to from our mistakes. I learned from being in a "sinful environment" that I am not sin. It was so black and white that I couldn't take it. Christianity showed me who I was by how they said who I wasn't. The people, the priests, my Catholic friends, the people I met at the retreat, we all wonderful. I finally got my post private of things off my chest with the blessings of the Divine (which they view an external God, for me it was just the Divine).

It took me awhile. I prayed to Jesus one day and said, "hey, now I understand. I will always respect you and your family however I can never be a part of it." I took my last communion with motivation of a Christian and never took communion with that sense again. If I take communion, it's for my grandmothers who are Christian. I remember reading about intent and ritual. How if we only have the intent, what we do in our rituals will be genuine. I consider taking communion with my grandmothers a ritual onto itself.

I do understand why people would be angry or disagree strongly with the christian faith. I just don't care for anyone who tells me I am not pagan because I know the Church believes once you are a Christian, you are always a Christian. I took vows that I don't follow. Why not continue to appreciate the good part of my faith? (rhetorical out loud thinking)

Thank you. Got that off my chest.
--
I remember talking with one Buddhist and we were talking about Christianity. She practically yelled frustrated (behind the wheel too) how much she despised Christianity because of all the people they have killed in the name of their faith. One of the Many reasons why I left. Buddhism teaches that no life is to be taken. One of the first "commandments" so to speak. Christianity is based on the death of one to save all. I understand her frustration and yours.

Take care
Back to work.

 

[Quintessence]

I do not feel it would be accurate to say I had a "former faith" because for all intents and purposes, I never had one. It did not have impacts on my development as a contemporary Pagan that would not have happened anyway because of the cultural dominance of Christian ideas. The primary sense in which the Abrahamic religions impact me at all are again, because of their cultural dominance, and I honestly try to keep that at arm's length as much as possible because it simply does not interest me, or in some cases, because I really want to have nothing to do with it as it is antithetical to my values. If I can remark upon the positives of other religions, that stems from having studied them or having a universal respectfulness for other people and their ways of life, not from having been affiliated.

As for defining how others see themselves as Pagan, that is not my place. Are there people who call themselves Pagan that I would not personally consider particularly Pagan? Yes. And to confess something, not using proper capitalization for Paganism and Pagan religions always sends up a red flag to me in that regard. It usually means the person is either new to the movement, an outsider, or a syncretist whose primary axis is something other than Paganism. Is there anything wrong with being any of those things? Of course not. Is there really much point in arguing about defining Paganism? Clearly some people think so, and a wander through the community media will evidence as much. Clearly, some people also just like to argue. I'm not one of them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thank you for a well thoughtful answer. Something perked my interest in your post, small, though nonetheless. The spelling of Pagan and pagan defines who you personally would consider Pagan and who not? (If there is a proper definition of one)

I understand your point of view a little; and, I find the word pagan or Pagan not accurate words to describe ones belief in the paganism category.

For example, I dont have pantheons and dont worship or revere gods/goddesses. The person next to me is a strict Wiccan with whom I would not consider Pagan since Wicca is not an eclectic or synchronized faith.

If Pagan describes a polytheist, it is not that a 'p'agan is new to the faith he just doesnt identify as a polytheist so that upper case P would not apply to him. Unless pagan is a false word? Maybe instead of pagan (non abrahamic believer) and Pagan (polytheist) he would be neopagan. Many people are "pagan" by their culture and ethnicity but not Pagan because they may not believe in multiple deities and identify themselves by a title appropriate to their country. Ethnic pagan I think people call it.

In short, I am a little puzzled with differenting pagan and Pagan by way of who may be new to the faith, outsider, or sycrinist. I would say sycrinist usually fall in the neopagan category. Strict polytheist fall in Pagan. All non abrahamics (from Buddhist to Lukumi) fall under pagan.

Would that make a little more sense? If not, how do you define pagan, Pagan, and Neopagan?

I do not feel it would be accurate to say I had a "former faith" because for all intents and purposes, I never had one. It did not have impacts on my development as a contemporary Pagan that would not have happened anyway because of the cultural dominance of Christian ideas. The primary sense in which the Abrahamic religions impact me at all are again, because of their cultural dominance, and I honestly try to keep that at arm's length as much as possible because it simply does not interest me, or in some cases, because I really want to have nothing to do with it as it is antithetical to my values. If I can remark upon the positives of other religions, that stems from having studied them or having a universal respectfulness for other people and their ways of life, not from having been affiliated.

As for defining how others see themselves as Pagan, that is not my place. Are there people who call themselves Pagan that I would not personally consider particularly Pagan? Yes. And to confess something, not using proper capitalization for Paganism and Pagan religions always sends up a red flag to me in that regard. It usually means the person is either new to the movement, an outsider, or a syncretist whose primary axis is something other than Paganism. Is there anything wrong with being any of those things? Of course not. Is there really much point in arguing about defining Paganism? Clearly some people think so, and a wander through the community media will evidence as much. Clearly, some people also just like to argue. I'm not one of them.

After awhile, theres no sense of keeping titles.

 

[Cassandra]

My personal opinion as Pagan

In my experience people mixing Christian stuff with Paganism are mostly Christian proselytisers in disguise. I have met them on many occasions and they always pretend to be the ones they want to convert, but they continuously mix Jesus, the Bible, God, and other stuff in the conversation, and they always work in packs using group psychology. If you question one, others will come to their rescue outnumbering you.

They are endlessly resourceful in bringing the discussion back towards Christianity giving other Christians opportunity to engage in the discussion. On some forums they got wise and Christian related words like Jesus, Bible, salvation etc are strictly forbidden and people who repeatedly use them are banned. I think this is the only sensible approach as Christian converters will never stop doing this as their religion makes proselytising into a duty.

Jesus advises them: "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. (Matthew 10:16) They do this with all other religions not only Paganism. This person, a former "Jew for Jesus" tells to what great length Christians go to fool and convert people. Very revealing.

It is not new. Lies and deceit have historically been the hallmark of Christianity in destroying Pagan traditions. And they are absolutely shameless. I recently commented somewhere that I reject Christianity, and the answer I got was. Me too, I hate the Christian church, I only accept the church of Jesus.

The revival of Paganism has prompted Christians to create lookalike movement, churches to fool Pagans. Once converted converts are again turned into proselytisers, they are often encouraged to keep their conversion secret. In Christianity the end justifies the means. And whatever is done is supposed to be done by the Spirit of Christ. They teach people that not they but the spirit of God converts people. This creates ruthlessness as the Proselytiser does not have to feel personal responsibility for his acts.

It is all done very professionally, like a modern sales organization. They have training courses and manuals, they learn what groups are the most vulnerable targets and how to approach them, ultimately leading in an invitation where they will meet all these nice Christians, and then powerful group psychology is used to reel them in further. They often use women, as their prime target is young men, still uncertain and orientating themselves and often not yet involved in relations.

I see the similar thing happening on this forum where a Pagan advises a person interested in Paganism the Santeria church of Orishas, which of course is run by Christians. That is the great thing about claiming to be a Pagan, you can bring in Christianity through the back door. Christians can claim to be Catholics but not Christians. Or non-Christians but of the Church of Jesus, or Hellenist but at the same time support evangelism, or whatever. As proselytizers work in packs, one can start a discussion and let others take it from there. They can take the role of Pagans declaring they find this behaviour normal to influence other Pagans to accept it too.

They have endless repertoires. Sometimes they take the role of a charismatic leaders winning trust of others and then declare, that they have seen the light and found Jesus. What to think of this in the earlier mentioned article:

The Church Mission Society’s webpage advertising their pioneer training scheme states: “Wherever in the world the mission of Jesus goes on, the church needs pioneer mission leaders to break new ground.
...
The new move could see famous druids such as druid leader Arthur Pendragon move to Anglicanism.

This kind of tactic is more often used by Christians, move people into higher positions and let them gain large followings and then have them convert. They for instance do this with movie stars. Christianity is the most commercial of all religions and they wrote the book on marketing and sales that now corporations are copying.

The Christian strategy with other religions is: Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish. Christianity at one time will genocide whole people, and after that start preaching compassion. While in Europe the church suppressed the Heliocentric view, Jesuits were showing it off in Asia to impress people with their knowledge. I see Pagans on this forum who declare that Christianity is fully compatible with Paganism and that that the persecutions of the past are something completely unrelated.

If you let proselytizers go unchecked, you will soon land in web of lies and deceit. As Pagans they can not only introduce all kind of Christian ideas in the mix, they can also embarrass other Pagans by behaving in the most shameful ways, knowing that they damage Paganism that way.

Personally I do not care about what other people believe. That is their own business. But I do feel that a religious forum should be kept free from all kinds of predators, specifically religious predators, to protect young people.

That is why would like to see that next to the Christian Wicca DIR, also a Christian Pagan DIR is created and all people who tie in Christianity with Paganism are referred to that DIR. Because otherwise I fear the manipulations will take no end and we will constantly be discussing the baits they feed us.

Even without a Christian Pagan DIR these Christian Pagans can operate in the New Age DIR if the like, New Age is very much a mishmash of ideas from everywhere. But Paganism is not. Neopagans are sincere in reviving a pre-Christian kind of religion, by reconstruction or rediscovery. We do not need people here mixing in Christian content.

That is my personal opinion: Mixed-matched Paganism is not Paganism but proselytizing.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There is no such thing as a christian pagan. Christianity is a strict belief and cannot fit with paganism or Paganism. There is no sense in creating a pagan DIR for individuals who are not not christian no matter their former faith. If there is no respect for other Pagans and pagans, how is paganism different than christians disrespecting our faith? If we are going to act less like christians, in the negative sense, then we should act like it. Pagans have killed just as many people as christians.

It is sad that this still exist today not only among christians with their own kind, but among Pagans too.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If my former faith bothers you so much, then its best not to post here in the thread I created for other reasons than to bash people. I have many reasons I am not Christian. No serious Christian will try and convert anyone to their faith. No serious christian would have any serious interest in entertaining the belief of multiple gods. I never met a Christian in the Church I went to who did this at all. Thats rediculous.

This thread was not meant to be the inquisition all over again. Pagans killing christians. Christians killing Pagans. Lets not relive history.

To be a Christian and a Pagan is a contradition. Pagans range from ethnic faith (yes, santeria/lukumi [African origin] not santeria/catholic [Cuban origin] is a Pagan faith). Wiccan is a Pagan faith. People who worship multiple Gods are Pagans. People who revere ancestors so much as to worship are Pagans. People who worship nature are Pagans. More than half of these people have former faiths such as christianity.

Not everyone HATES their former faith. As a Pagan my former faith taught me that I dont have sinful nature. What it did was make me so guilty for sins I have not commited to where it was like a bulb cut on ...no one has a sinful nature. Not you. Not me. Not Jane doe.

Christianity taught me that we MUST find a faith that is true to us. How? Priests have told me for the only three years I practiced christianity NOT to become Christian. What Christian would tell anyone not to become one???!!!!

Christianity taught that we MUST have some sort of fellowship with like believers. So, I told three friends of mine, I did not want to lie to them. I do not want to lie to myself. I dont believe in God" They were nice and said they understood. We havnt talked since. Now I look for fellowship among Pagans, THIS is what I get. Reminds me of evangalistic christians who think everyone is trying to take their pearls.

Not many Pagans like Christianity. I am a rare bunch that does to some degree. That does not make me Christian. That makes me Acceptive of other peoples religions. Respect them for their belief, eve. Mixed matched pagans.

Yes, I practice magic (no, Im not neopagan and dont use the K) and ritual, yes, I revere my ancestors ans deceased, yes I worship nature, and Yes I payy respects to my Christian grandmas by ritual.

This bias towards other pagans saddens me. It is why I left christianity. It is why I left practicing Nichiren Buddhism. Paganism makes me me. With or without the upper case P.

My personal opinion as Pagan

In my experience people mixing Christian stuff with Paganism are mostly Christian proselytisers in disguise. I have met them on many occasions and they always pretend to be the ones they want to convert, but they continuously mix Jesus, the Bible, God, and other stuff in the conversation, and they always work in packs using group psychology. If you question one, others will come to their rescue outnumbering you.

They are endlessly resourceful in bringing the discussion back towards Christianity giving other Christians opportunity to engage in the discussion. On some forums they got wise and Christian related words like Jesus, Bible, salvation etc are strictly forbidden and people who repeatedly use them are banned. I think this is the only sensible approach as Christian converters will never stop doing this as their religion makes proselytising into a duty.

Jesus advises them: "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. (Matthew 10:16) They do this with all other religions not only Paganism. This person, a former "Jew for Jesus" tells to what great length Christians go to fool and convert people. Very revealing.

It is not new. Lies and deceit have historically been the hallmark of Christianity in destroying Pagan traditions. And they are absolutely shameless. I recently commented somewhere that I reject Christianity, and the answer I got was. Me too, I hate the Christian church, I only accept the church of Jesus.

The revival of Paganism has prompted Christians to create lookalike movement, churches to fool Pagans. Once converted converts are again turned into proselytisers, they are often encouraged to keep their conversion secret. In Christianity the end justifies the means. And whatever is done is supposed to be done by the Spirit of Christ. They teach people that not they but the spirit of God converts people. This creates ruthlessness as the Proselytiser does not have to feel personal responsibility for his acts.

It is all done very professionally, like a modern sales organization. They have training courses and manuals, they learn what groups are the most vulnerable targets and how to approach them, ultimately leading in an invitation where they will meet all these nice Christians, and then powerful group psychology is used to reel them in further. They often use women, as their prime target is young men, still uncertain and orientating themselves and often not yet involved in relations.

I see the similar thing happening on this forum where a Pagan advises a person interested in Paganism the Santeria church of Orishas, which of course is run by Christians. That is the great thing about claiming to be a Pagan, you can bring in Christianity through the back door. Christians can claim to be Catholics but not Christians. Or non-Christians but of the Church of Jesus, or Hellenist but at the same time support evangelism, or whatever. As proselytizers work in packs, one can start a discussion and let others take it from there. They can take the role of Pagans declaring they find this behaviour normal to influence other Pagans to accept it too.

They have endless repertoires. Sometimes they take the role of a charismatic leaders winning trust of others and then declare, that they have seen the light and found Jesus. What to think of this in the earlier mentioned article:


This kind of tactic is more often used by Christians, move people into higher positions and let them gain large followings and then have them convert. They for instance do this with movie stars. Christianity is the most commercial of all religions and they wrote the book on marketing and sales that now corporations are copying.

The Christian strategy with other religions is: Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish. Christianity at one time will genocide whole people, and after that start preaching compassion. While in Europe the church suppressed the Heliocentric view, Jesuits were showing it off in Asia to impress people with their knowledge. I see Pagans on this forum who declare that Christianity is fully compatible with Paganism and that that the persecutions of the past are something completely unrelated.

If you let proselytizers go unchecked, you will soon land in web of lies and deceit. As Pagans they can not only introduce all kind of Christian ideas in the mix, they can also embarrass other Pagans by behaving in the most shameful ways, knowing that they damage Paganism that way.

Personally I do not care about what other people believe. That is their own business. But I do feel that a religious forum should be kept free from all kinds of predators, specifically religious predators, to protect young people.

That is why would like to see that next to the Christian Wicca DIR, also a Christian Pagan DIR is created and all people who tie in Christianity with Paganism are referred to that DIR. Because otherwise I fear the manipulations will take no end and we will constantly be discussing the baits they feed us.

Even without a Christian Pagan DIR these Christian Pagans can operate in the New Age DIR if the like, New Age is very much a mishmash of ideas from everywhere. But Paganism is not. Neopagans are sincere in reviving a pre-Christian kind of religion, by reconstruction or rediscovery. We do not need people here mixing in Christian content.

That is my personal opinion: Mixed-matched Paganism is not Paganism but proselytizing.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hey, I have questions for you guys and staff.

Do you consider paganism and neopaganism completely different from each other or is the latter a more modern version of the former? Do you think there could be a neopagan subforum if so?

I was reading this site (below) and a couple old posts of mine and thought that the sub forum description may separate paganism from neopaganism in its description.

Also, it could have a neopagan sub-sub forum so Pagans who, collectively identity as polytheist or animist in between there can post in this forum. While more nature rather than deity centered (or those who dont believe in deities like myself) can post on the neopagan forum.

I know all non abrahamic faiths are pagan. (pagan-collective term; Pagan-practitioner of a path within the group) Many polytheists and people reconstructing older polythiests beliefs are Pagan. While nature centered religions (Which I practice) such as Wicca and eclecticism would fall somewhat under neopagan (as defined in the article and Wicca in its sub sub forum already here). They are both pagan though.

Would that make more sense so this DIR wont be too broad to where any pagan can post rather than just Pagans (pre christian polytheistic believers)?

Similar to christianity and catholicism. Both are christian. Any christian can post in the former, only Catholics in the latter.

Or, is this forum for All pagans regardless whether they are neopagan, ethnic, or modern pre christian era Pagan?

--
Defining Paganism and Neopaganism (A blogger view on definitions of paganism/neopagan/retropagan, and the like)

 

[Whiterain]

Wow, this guy had a lot to say.

My personal opinion as Pagan

In my experience people mixing Christian stuff with Paganism are mostly Christian proselytisers in disguise. I have met them on many occasions and they always pretend to be the ones they want to convert, but they continuously mix Jesus, the Bible, God, and other stuff in the conversation, and they always work in packs using group psychology. If you question one, others will come to their rescue outnumbering you.

They are endlessly resourceful in bringing the discussion back towards Christianity giving other Christians opportunity to engage in the discussion. On some forums they got wise and Christian related words like Jesus, Bible, salvation etc are strictly forbidden and people who repeatedly use them are banned. I think this is the only sensible approach as Christian converters will never stop doing this as their religion makes proselytising into a duty.

Jesus advises them: "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. (Matthew 10:16) They do this with all other religions not only Paganism. This person, a former "Jew for Jesus" tells to what great length Christians go to fool and convert people. Very revealing.

It is not new. Lies and deceit have historically been the hallmark of Christianity in destroying Pagan traditions. And they are absolutely shameless. I recently commented somewhere that I reject Christianity, and the answer I got was. Me too, I hate the Christian church, I only accept the church of Jesus.

The revival of Paganism has prompted Christians to create lookalike movement, churches to fool Pagans. Once converted converts are again turned into proselytisers, they are often encouraged to keep their conversion secret. In Christianity the end justifies the means. And whatever is done is supposed to be done by the Spirit of Christ. They teach people that not they but the spirit of God converts people. This creates ruthlessness as the Proselytiser does not have to feel personal responsibility for his acts.

It is all done very professionally, like a modern sales organization. They have training courses and manuals, they learn what groups are the most vulnerable targets and how to approach them, ultimately leading in an invitation where they will meet all these nice Christians, and then powerful group psychology is used to reel them in further. They often use women, as their prime target is young men, still uncertain and orientating themselves and often not yet involved in relations.

I see the similar thing happening on this forum where a Pagan advises a person interested in Paganism the Santeria church of Orishas, which of course is run by Christians. That is the great thing about claiming to be a Pagan, you can bring in Christianity through the back door. Christians can claim to be Catholics but not Christians. Or non-Christians but of the Church of Jesus, or Hellenist but at the same time support evangelism, or whatever. As proselytizers work in packs, one can start a discussion and let others take it from there. They can take the role of Pagans declaring they find this behaviour normal to influence other Pagans to accept it too.

They have endless repertoires. Sometimes they take the role of a charismatic leaders winning trust of others and then declare, that they have seen the light and found Jesus. What to think of this in the earlier mentioned article:


This kind of tactic is more often used by Christians, move people into higher positions and let them gain large followings and then have them convert. They for instance do this with movie stars. Christianity is the most commercial of all religions and they wrote the book on marketing and sales that now corporations are copying.

The Christian strategy with other religions is: Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish. Christianity at one time will genocide whole people, and after that start preaching compassion. While in Europe the church suppressed the Heliocentric view, Jesuits were showing it off in Asia to impress people with their knowledge. I see Pagans on this forum who declare that Christianity is fully compatible with Paganism and that that the persecutions of the past are something completely unrelated.

If you let proselytizers go unchecked, you will soon land in web of lies and deceit. As Pagans they can not only introduce all kind of Christian ideas in the mix, they can also embarrass other Pagans by behaving in the most shameful ways, knowing that they damage Paganism that way.

Personally I do not care about what other people believe. That is their own business. But I do feel that a religious forum should be kept free from all kinds of predators, specifically religious predators, to protect young people.

That is why would like to see that next to the Christian Wicca DIR, also a Christian Pagan DIR is created and all people who tie in Christianity with Paganism are referred to that DIR. Because otherwise I fear the manipulations will take no end and we will constantly be discussing the baits they feed us.

Even without a Christian Pagan DIR these Christian Pagans can operate in the New Age DIR if the like, New Age is very much a mishmash of ideas from everywhere. But Paganism is not. Neopagans are sincere in reviving a pre-Christian kind of religion, by reconstruction or rediscovery. We do not need people here mixing in Christian content.

That is my personal opinion: Mixed-matched Paganism is not Paganism but proselytizing.

What a read, this is basically how I feel about "agents" of another agenda. Maybe I'm not totally insane.

Ah, that makes more sense.

As for the topic at hand;

I find nothing all that useful in Christianity or its predecessor, Judaism. Christianity in particular teaches that one should be inherently ashamed, that we are born inherently broken, and must bend our knee to the God who made us that way in order to be delivered from it. It endorses false humility and corrupts even the notion of 'love' into something despicable, something that you are effectively forced to feel towards that 'God'. It teaches its followers to just "lay down and take it", because you'll be rewarded after death. There is no room in Christianity for respect either of yourself or of others, or for pride you have justly earned. In fact, all successful deeds are attributed to God, rather than to their performer. It robs humanity even of its own triumphs in that regard, while laying all our misdeeds directly at our feet. It teaches people to be sheep, going so far as to flat-out say it.

So no, I do not want my faith to have anything to do with Christianity if I can help it. I may

And Nietzsche is superb, he keeps me coming here lately..

My 'spiritual' journey so far has been havoc but I am grateful. I was borderline suicidal in spiritual depression with Christianity not making any sense.

Then I was instinctively drawn to Norse myth and became totally schizophrenic, it gave me hope that this world doesn't suck and is my worst nightmare, I hate Catholicism, Judaism and Islam.

All of Christianity's teaching out are weighed by the atrocities the Church committed, at least the Vatican is trying to re-direct it's power into a positive direction this age. I still believe I am done with Catholicism and Christianity. It's been 2000 years and they'll keep waiting, how the hell this religion has made it is sick anyway.

It's just sick, all of it, they brain washed the hell out of people.

The teachings of Norse/ Germanic Paganism in particular is outstanding, it teaches independence and there is no divine intervention. Divine intervention sickens me and it's costed people dearly in their darkest hours.

The world can't be in my image, but with the resurgence of Norse Paganism it can be for me.

It makes me warm and fuzzy inside.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thank you guys for sharing your views of your former faiths.

I always tell people not everyone is meant to be christian; and, not all Christians are meant to be Catholic. I dont know how pre-christian Pagans (pre christian believers) would view their original faiths before Christians took over. I know not all Pagans became under Christian rule but it definitely has influences on all pagan beliefs.

I guess from an intellectual view and belief, how do you associate with prechristian beliefs and from what country?

I was thinking, over a years of practicing paganism (for lack of a better, appropriate name) as a serious practice and more than ten years influenced by my parent's interest in witchcraft (she practiced bits she learned overseas and other modern when she came to the US.), I started to have more of a deep appreciation for the modern craft with bits of other things in it. It is as if her interest glued me to go into it.

Then she took us to church with the intention of "creating a white picket fenced family" (Two parents, two kids, boy and girl, a Labador dog, in an Edward Sissorhand neighborhood) It was my first experience with christianity full blown at 16ish.

I dropped at 18 after reading the bible full. I met a Roman Catholic friend and her devotion attracted me to where, by her influence, I made the jump. Catholicism, contrary to mainstream catholic views, does have paganism in it; so, I felt at home. Ten years of paganism didnt take over with only half of that of christianity and only three years of Catholicism. I divorced it and now growing in the craft.

I had at one time played with the idea of mixing the two. I studied the histories and it made me sick that both sides killed each other for religious and political reasons. People loose their businesse because the Church overpowers the owners to close down (true experience). I said to myself that I couldnt be a part of a faith (like many others who killed in the name of their faith) where thr community promoted overruling other peoples freedom. I saw it in Nicheren Buddhism as well.

I dont like talking ill about any faith. I had negative experiencs with Buddhist just as I do christian. But mostly christian online. We have an evangelistic catholic in our building who feels everyone should be Catholic. She would put down any person who is not a part of the Church. I know not all Catholics are like that. I just see holes in the faith though beautiful a part from how people even some priests make it out to be.

Anyway, Im just blogging my little two cents. If it were possible, would you like our christian society (in US) to be Pagan?

I know Pagans in the past were forceful with their faiths (as the Church takes it to the extreme with the saints deaths). I wouldnt say do that. Many ethnic Pagan cultures are trying to unsycrinize their faith to its origins. Just a thought of what it would be like if each country went back to their origins.

 

[Jainarayan]

Hey, I have questions for you guys and staff.

Do you consider paganism and neopaganism completely different from each other or is the latter a more modern version of the former? Do you think there could be a neopagan subforum if so?

Neo-Paganism usually means a reconstructed Pagan tradition, or one that is new (neo=new). I would call parts of Germanic Heathenry Neo-Paganism, such as the Nine Noble Virtues. They were gleaned mainly from the Hávamál. As far as we know, there was no such codified list in ancient times. The higher level sub-forum here is Neo-Paganism or Revival Religions. Within in that we have New Age, Goddess Spirituality and Worship and Paganism.

Speaking only for myself I think adding more sub-sub-forums would serve only to muddy the waters and confuse things more than they appear to be. Paganism, Neo-Paganism and Heathenism are broad terms. If anything, I personally would like to see a conolidation of sub-forums.

Or, is this forum for All pagans regardless whether they are neopagan, ethnic, or modern pre christian era Pagan?

As far as I am concerned, yes.

 

[Jainarayan]

Ah, that makes more sense.

As for the topic at hand;

I find nothing all that useful in Christianity or its predecessor, Judaism. Christianity in particular teaches that one should be inherently ashamed, that we are born inherently broken, and must bend our knee to the God who made us that way in order to be delivered from it. It endorses false humility and corrupts even the notion of 'love' into something despicable, something that you are effectively forced to feel towards that 'God'. It teaches its followers to just "lay down and take it", because you'll be rewarded after death. There is no room in Christianity for respect either of yourself or of others, or for pride you have justly earned. In fact, all successful deeds are attributed to God, rather than to their performer. It robs humanity even of its own triumphs in that regard, while laying all our misdeeds directly at our feet. It teaches people to be sheep, going so far as to flat-out say it.

So no, I do not want my faith to have anything to do with Christianity if I can help it. I may

I'd also add that while most, if not all Paganism is pluralistic, Christianity is certainly not. As a Heathen I can believe the Hindu, Taoist, Egyptian, Hellenic, Celtic, Slavic, Youruba (and so on) gods are as valid as my gods for the people who worship those gods. A Christian cannot believe that. One can add Jesus as a deity to their pantheon if they wish, but then one is not Christian. I think Christo-Pagan is a valid term only when Jesus is one's fulltrui, ishta-devata, patron, or whatever term one uses to indicate their primus inter pares deity in syncretism. But there's the rub... "inter pares", "among equals". Christianity rejects that out of hand.

 

[Quintessence]

Thank you for a well thoughtful answer. Something perked my interest in your post, small, though nonetheless. The spelling of Pagan and pagan defines who you personally would consider Pagan and who not? (If there is a proper definition of one

Not specifically, it's just Paganism, refers to religions, and should be capitalized. Those who are Pagan nearly always capitalize their own religion, because... well... why wouldn't you? Not capitalizing Paganism when you're a Pagan is basically insulting yourself, just as failing to capitalize other religions like Christianity or Hinduism is something of an insult, especially if it is being done deliberately and not out of laziness or sloppy/poor grammatical skills.

In short, I am a little puzzled with differenting pagan and Pagan by way of who may be new to the faith, outsider, or sycrinist. I would say sycrinist usually fall in the neopagan category. Strict polytheist fall in Pagan. All non abrahamics (from Buddhist to Lukumi) fall under pagan.

Would that make a little more sense? If not, how do you define pagan, Pagan, and Neopagan?

I've probably done that better in some other thread around here, but I'll be damned if I can find it. Briefly?

• paganism (lower case) - a pejorative term used to designate individuals one believes to be cultural outsiders (i.e., non-Abrahamics, atheists), and in many cases, people to hate and scorn.

I personally never use this definition of "paganism" and wish it didn't exist, but I can't deny the historical usage or the fact that the word continues to be used in this way by many people, including, unfortunately, some contemporary Pagans. ​

• Paganism (proper case) - polytheistic, nature-centered (aka, gods are immanent and either represent or are various aspects of nature or culture), ritual-based (aka, focus is more on practice than creed/dogma) religions that are (usually) non-revealed and lack a founder. Represents indigenous or tribal religious modalities characteristic of humanity prior to the invention of monotheistic religions.

Honestly, Paganism is rather complex to be distilled down into two sentences. Michael York's "Paganism as a World Religion" work, which is maybe a bit academic for some, does a better job of delineating it, as can I when I'm not feeling lazy.​

• Neopaganism (or contemporary Paganism) - a new religious movement (~1940s) that had its roots in European Romanticism that reconstructs and revives elements of historical or indigenous Paganisms. Frequently, contemporary Pagans simply call themselves Pagan, without the clarifier.

Anybody who can't trace their roots to an indigenous Pagan tradition is technically Neopagan. This is pretty much the understanding we use in delineating this DIR, but I doubt if we'd exclude non-contemporary Paganism from here. ​

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Aah. Okay. THAT makes sense. I don't call myself any type of pagan because I find my "pagan" practices and faith do not mirror the dogma behind it. For example, I don't have pantheons, not eclectic, and not refer to nature as God and Goddess and so forth. It's nothing wrong with that, don't get me wrong. I just find myself pulled to ethnic faiths that come from my roots. Unfortunately, for my dis-benefit, it is mostly Christian. If I were to choose a word according to your post Paganism (proper case). I was thinking if Paganism is only directly related to polytheism, than I'm not Pagan. If it is nature centered faith (with, for me, ancestral veneration among other practices), then I "qualify."

As with proper cases, I understand what you mean. I capitalize Christian because of grammar not because of religious identity of the Christian. Since Christianity is a broad term for many denominations whose titles should be capitalized.

I feel if I can be more specific in how I identify myself as a Pagan (like identifying with a denomination), than using that word would fit. As long as it's a broad term, for me personally, I find that misleading to identify as a Pagan. That would include polytheism and other beliefs I do not relate too. It doesn't describe specifically my relationship with the word. Gleaning from my mother's practice of witchcraft (from Louisiana not British), the closest I'd call myself is a Witch. Even that word is a little stingy.

Not specifically, it's just Paganism, refers to religions, and should be capitalized. Those who are Pagan nearly always capitalize their own religion, because... well... why wouldn't you? Not capitalizing Paganism when you're a Pagan is basically insulting yourself, just as failing to capitalize other religions like Christianity or Hinduism is something of an insult, especially if it is being done deliberately and not out of laziness or sloppy/poor grammatical skills.

I've probably done that better in some other thread around here, but I'll be damned if I can find it. Briefly?

• paganism (lower case) - a pejorative term used to designate individuals one believes to be cultural outsiders (i.e., non-Abrahamics, atheists), and in many cases, people to hate and scorn.

I personally never use this definition of "paganism" and wish it didn't exist, but I can't deny the historical usage or the fact that the word continues to be used in this way by many people, including, unfortunately, some contemporary Pagans. ​

• Paganism (proper case) - polytheistic, nature-centered (aka, gods are immanent and either represent or are various aspects of nature or culture), ritual-based (aka, focus is more on practice than creed/dogma) religions that are (usually) non-revealed and lack a founder. Represents indigenous or tribal religious modalities characteristic of humanity prior to the invention of monotheistic religions.

Honestly, Paganism is rather complex to be distilled down into two sentences. Michael York's "Paganism as a World Religion" work, which is maybe a bit academic for some, does a better job of delineating it, as can I when I'm not feeling lazy.​

• Neopaganism (or contemporary Paganism) - a new religious movement (~1940s) that had its roots in European Romanticism that reconstructs and revives elements of historical or indigenous Paganisms. Frequently, contemporary Pagans simply call themselves Pagan, without the clarifier.

Anybody who can't trace their roots to an indigenous Pagan tradition is technically Neopagan. This is pretty much the understanding we use in delineating this DIR, but I doubt if we'd exclude non-contemporary Paganism from here. ​

Modern paganism is it's own animal. I find a lot of neopagans identify as Pagans...and it strikes me odd, because I learned Pagans (as you mentioned) as a polytheistic pre-christian oriented faiths. I would also add to that definition the practice of ethnic or cultured based faiths. Though, the culture calls their faith by their own name.

The "Language of the Cosmos" is something else, I tell ya.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

As far as I am concerned, yes.

Thank you. I didn't want to overstep my boundaries after being offended.

 

[illykitty]

Not specifically, it's just Paganism, refers to religions, and should be capitalized. Those who are Pagan nearly always capitalize their own religion, because... well... why wouldn't you? Not capitalizing Paganism when you're a Pagan is basically insulting yourself, just as failing to capitalize other religions like Christianity or Hinduism is something of an insult, especially if it is being done deliberately and not out of laziness or sloppy/poor grammatical skills.

While I agree it can be sloppy to not capitalise it, speaking as someone with two languages learnt before English, I can sometimes forget to capitalise things, because you don't do that in French. I found it quite strange when I learned English. The spell-checker is a life saver at times!

OP: How or should we define how someone else sees themself as a pagan? It reminds of christians trying to define other christians relationship with God. Are we doing the same? If so, honestly, why?

I've seen it happen, and unless it was obvious that someone wasn't a Pagan, I often felt uncomfortable about it. Personally, I'm a newbie so I won't judge who is and isn't. It's not my place to say and I feel it would be arrogant from my part. I'm not even sure what criteria one would use... Reverence of nature? Having rituals? Gods? *Shrugs*

Another thing, off topic, I was thinking how pagans here, if not private, how have you journied from your former faiths? Have you learned from it? Does it, in little positive ways shapes who you are as a pagan?

I wasn't born into a faith, per say, I was baptised out of tradition and obviously in the west, the culture is influenced by Christianity... So I had to put some assumptions aside, like what the word "god" means. I'm still very much in that process. I feel any past religions I've looked at had given me insight into what I really believed in and what I didn't so because of that, I'm more sure of the general direction I want to go towards. I don't have ill feelings towards those religions and feel that, at the very least, I can put aside some assumptions made in the media about people from other faiths.