Mohamed's surah 2 back-pedal.

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No need to repeat yourself, just give me a post number and I'll reread it. I find some of your posts difficult to read.

You need examples. That's okay, some people need examples and analogies to understand.

 

[stevecanuck]

You need examples. That's okay, some people need examples and analogies to understand.

What? You said you already gave me an example, and I asked you for a post number. Was that not clear?

 

[firedragon]

Here is quote from Hallucinations 3:56 - "And Deflection One begat Deflection Two. The breather of fire saw it and said it was good".

Let's play your game this time and forget my claim that he was talking to the Jews of Yathrib. Let's simply say he was talking to Jews (I don't see how you can pretend that's not true, but I do expect you to try). Now, how does that change anything I've said regarding the mixing of the past with the present?

So though you claimed "ALL", you don't know this also so you have no choice but to say something wrong to avoid accepting you made a bogus claim.

Nevermind. What does Mujahid say? It is a very very old Tafsir.

 

[stevecanuck]

So though you claimed "ALL", you don't know this also so you have no choice but to say something wrong to avoid accepting you made a bogus claim.

Nevermind. What does Mujahid say? It is a very very old Tafsir.

So tell me. Who was being spoken to in 2:40?

 

[firedragon]

So tell me. Who was being spoken to in 2:40?

So you dont know what these mufassireen said but you made a bogus claim about all of the scholars saying one thing without knowing anything about the scholars I have given right?

 

[firedragon]

So tell me. Who was being spoken to in 2:40?

Now that we have established that your claim about "all scholars" is just fake and that you are just ignorant, let's try and get to the bottom of this based on your epistemological honesty.

Could you tell me what is the word in the Quranic arabic for Jews as in the religious sense?

Thanks.

 

[KWED]

What does Fakhruddin ar razy say?

If you are claiming that he says something different, provide a reference.
What's that? You won't?
Quelle surprise!

 

[KWED]

You made a claim. You don't know majority Tafsirs, let alone all, to make that claim. He called you out. Stop talking as if an expert.

Well, quote a tafsir that says Muhammad was not addressing the Jews of Medina.

Personally, I would have said "I am not aware of a single scholar who says they were not addressing the Jews of Medina".
So, now the onus is on you to present a contradictory opinion if you are aware of one, rather than meaningless semantic sniping.

 

[KWED]

So tell me. Who was being spoken to in 2:40?

@firedragon doesn't do answering questions or supporting his position. He only does muddying the waters, red herrings, etc.

It must be galling to realise that the only way to defend your beliefs is with smoke and mirrors.

 

[stevecanuck]

Now that we have established that your claim about "all scholars" is just fake and that you are just ignorant, let's try and get to the bottom of this based on your epistemological honesty.

Could you tell me what is the word in the Quranic arabic for Jews as in the religious sense?

Thanks.

I can tell you're having a lot of fun with this deflection. You clearly think you're on the offensive and have successfully taken attention away from the point of the OP. Here, argue with the people who run this website: Malik Surah 2. Al-Baqara Introduction, Revelation, Background and Summary

No matter how hard you try, you can't get around the fact that Mohamed (via the Qur'an) frequently inserted current-day Jews into the past, and then had to back-track and try to assure them that they wouldn't actually be blamed for all the things they were being blamed for. When he said, "YOU worshipped the golden calf", he was wrong. Plain and simple. You won't address that because you cant.

Enjoy your game.

 

[stevecanuck]

Well, quote a tafsir that says Muhammad was not addressing the Jews of Medina.

Personally, I would have said "I am not aware of a single scholar who says they were not addressing the Jews of Medina".
So, now the onus is on you to present a contradictory opinion if you are aware of one, rather than meaningless semantic sniping.

Yup. I provided a deflection opening. DOH!

 

[firedragon]

I can tell you're having a lot of fun with this deflection. You clearly think you're on the offensive and have successfully taken attention away from the point of the OP. Here, argue with the people who run this website: Malik Surah 2. Al-Baqara Introduction, Revelation, Background and Summary

No matter how hard you try, you can't get around the fact that Mohamed (via the Qur'an) frequently inserted current-day Jews into the past, and then had to back-track and try to assure them that they wouldn't actually be blamed for all the things they were being blamed for. When he said, "YOU worshipped the golden calf", he was wrong. Plain and simple. You won't address that because you cant.

Enjoy your game.

Okay. So you don't know that also. You made a bogus claim about "All mufassireen", but so far you have not known any of the great's I mentioned above. So you just made up something.

Nevermind. I asked you whats the word used in the Qur'an for people of the Jewish faith, but you don't know that as well.

Do you have any knowledge at all?

Tell me now since you have read "all the scholars and all the mufassireen on this subject", what do all the scholars say are "Children of Israel"? Tell me what Atthabari says. Just one, not your bogus claim of "I know all the scholars", just google what Tabari says and get back once your googling and quick read up is done.

Cheers.

 

[stevecanuck]

Okay. So you don't know that also. You made a bogus claim about "All mufassireen", but so far you have not known any of the great's I mentioned above. So you just made up something.

Nevermind. I asked you whats the word used in the Qur'an for people of the Jewish faith, but you don't know that as well.

Do you have any knowledge at all?

Tell me now since you have read "all the scholars and all the mufassireen on this subject", what do all the scholars say are "Children of Israel"? Tell me what Atthabari says. Just one, not your bogus claim of "I know all the scholars", just google what Tabari says and get back once your googling and quick read up is done.

Cheers.

Malik Surah 2. Al-Baqara Introduction, Revelation, Background and Summary

 

[firedragon]

Malik Surah 2. Al-Baqara Introduction, Revelation, Background and Summary

I didn't;t ask for some internet link. I know I asked you to google, but not so shallow you see?? Just read Tabari's tafsir. Obviously though you claimed you have read "ALL" the tafsirs ever made in history, you have not read any.

So just read the direct source. I'm sure you can download a pdf version of the little fraction that was translated which has chapter 2. Read the source. And tell me what he says Children of Israel means. I mean just one tafsir, not all like you falsely claimed.

 

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Just keep in mind most of Yathrib where waiting for Mohammad (s) and were known as Jews but believed in Isa (a) as well, but were not trinity Christians, and hence known as Jews (today they be probably called something like Messianic Jews).

They invited Mohammad (s) (a secret group met together and decided to invite him saying we have support of most of the city and God never revealed who it was, lest they be killed by hypocrites).

And most Jews including those in Yemen and other places, converted to Islam if not during Mohammad (s) lifetime, then after.

I just want to lay it out there, it may have a harsh tone, but it worked. Most of "bani-Israel" became Muslim.

Ibn Kathir records there was a time, after Twelve Imams (a) passed away, that most of the remaining Jews converted to Shiite Islam due to the Prophecy of Twelve Princes from offspring of Ismail (a).

So majority stayed true to the covenant, so one can ask what is the point then, to keep all this if most accepted? Why keep it in Quran?

The truth is Quran rotates, it speaks of the past for us to learn for the present and future. We were and are still going to be tried in similar way of Christians and Jews and Bani-Israel.

The main difference is Nubuwa has stopped. But Messengers and Imams are still a thing and so similar logic applied. How we treat the house of our time, the Ahlulbayt (a), will have similar logic.

And if we preach to the world to be righteous while not righteous ourselves, same logic of Surah Baqara applies to us.

And we see Imams (a) interpret Surah Baqara that way, for example "every time there came to them "a Mohammad"..." is an interpretation of "every time there came to them a Messenger", meaning we too be tried like that, but even tried more of sign and bright guidance, with a Mohammad, a person of same light and caliber of Mohammad (s).

I will soon give examples of how there is nothing wrong with addressing people with past generations. It happens in language all the time.

 

[stevecanuck]

I will soon give examples of how there is nothing wrong with addressing people with past generations. It happens in language all the time.

Please tell me, were you justified when you beheaded hundreds of unarmed men and youths of the Banu Quraiza. If you don't answer this question specifically by inserting yourself into that event, I won't be responding to you anymore. The Deflection Express is being shunted to a holding area and shut down.

 

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Please tell me, were you justified when you beheaded hundreds of unarmed men and youths of the Banu Quraiza. If you don't answer this question specifically by inserting yourself into that event, I won't be responding to you anymore. The Deflection Express is being shunted to a holding area and shut down.

If Mohammad (s) and that event happened, then I am part of his followers, who did that, from one perspective. From another perspective, I was not there.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What do you mean by "same kind of people"?
Accusing them can only be justified if they have committed the same acts.

Please see my discussion with @stevecanuck.

So the Quran was written by Muhammad, not Allah?

I believe Muhammad was a Manifestation of God. So, Allah was speaking through the Mouth of Muhammad.
We do not make any distinction between God and His Messenger.

 

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Please see my discussion with @stevecanuck.




I believe Muhammad was a Manifestation of God. So, Allah was speaking through the Mouth of Muhammad.
We do not make any distinction between God and His Messenger.

Can you show me where in Bahai scripture, there is no difference between words of God (Quran) and Mohammad (s). I just want to know the reference, or if you just making it up.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Can you show me where in Bahai scripture, there is no difference between words of God (Quran) and Mohammad (s). I just want to know the reference, or if you just making it up.

It is in Kitabi Iqan.
It is also in the Quran:
"Those who make a distinction between God and His Messenger, those are disbelievers"

You can find exactly QUOTE in the Quran.