Moksha in Vaishnavism

[The Crimson Universe]

EDIT: Here you can discuss how moksha is seen by the various schools of Vaishnavism.

Vaishnavism has four major sampradyas or denominations.
They are -
*Dvaita school of Madhvacharya
* Vishist-advaita school of Ramanuja
* Shuddha-advaita school of Vallabhacharya
* Dvaitadvaita school of Nimbarka

There's another school that goes by the name achintya bheda abheda of Chaitanya, also called gaudiya vaishnavism. Its followers, the Hare Krishnas claim they're an offshoot of Madhva's school.

Since i'm familiar with the beliefs of the gaudiya vaishnavas, i'll start with them.

==============

The hare krishnas or gaudiya vaishnavas believe that after attaining moksha and going to the spiritual Goloka abode, the liberated jivas again fall down to the material world, if they become envious of Krishna while living in His abode ... or if they don't want to serve Krishna in Goloka anymore.

I found this post of a gaudiya vaishnava.
Here he says-
"However, there is a chance for only one contamination in very few cases. What is that? It is the jealousy on Krishna. If you just think atleast once that Krishna is enjoying the services of so many souls and you too should be served by others like they serve Krishna, that’s all. You are sent back to any of the material planet immediately. Why? Because, you too wanted to enjoy like Krishna. Therefore, hereafter, you can’t serve Him without a pure consciousness. So, you are relieved from the spiritual planets and are immediately sent to material planets."

My question is, why would there be envy, jealousy or other lower emotions in a liberated person? Don't we transcend all of them, just to become a mukta?

He furthur says that-
"Impurity comes even in spiritual planets...
If we violate His (Lord's) trust, we have no place there."

From his post it seems that according to the gaudiya vaishnavas, the liberated beings who live in spiritual abodes are not free of impurities.
Also it seems like they don't get to make any decision over there, like how long one can stay there, or when one gets to leave.

So, If there remains negative emotions in the liberated jivas, and if such jivas are exiled from God's abode and sent back to the material world whenever God wishes to do so, then why do the hare krishnas call it moksha? Shouldn't that be rather a temporary abode of divine pleasure?

Here's the link to that post-
Why and How did we fall down from Goloka? How to avoid it?

I'm not here to critisize. I respect all paths. I'm just trying to understand what they mean by moksha.

:=)

 

[Viraja]

There are different kinds of moksha. Not sure if this confirms with 'Gaudiya Philosophy', but Vaishnavism in general advocates Salokya, Sameepya, Sarupya, Sayujya, etc, as different mukthi states. Also Kaivalya is another mukthi state. I think (my personal opinion) that souls thus are at different levels of purity and not all souls are fully free of desires and just like heavenly planets, moksha period can be limited and that they can fall from it at some point.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

I think (my personal opinion) that souls thus are at different levels of purity and not all souls are fully free of desires and just like heavenly planets, moksha period can be limited and that they can fall from it at some point.

So, even after liberation, if souls are not completely free from desires, jealousy and other impurities, then why do you think its called 'moksha' in Vaishnavism? Shouldn't liberation be the complete elimination of all impurities and thus breaking free from the cycle of rebirth/samsara?

Are there any scriptural verses that speaks of this type of moksha (with impurities)?

I agree, some heavenly planets are temporary places of enjoyment, like brahmaloka, swargaloka, chandraloka. These are places where rebirth takes place. Souls stay there for some time and again return to material world, once fruits of their karmas are exhausted. But Vaikuntha and Goloka, as far as i know, are permanent spiritual abodes, which continues to exist even after cosmic dissolution (pralaya). I wonder why souls are sent back from Vishnu's permanent abode. If its because of our impurities, then i don't understand why are we allowed to enter Vishnu's abode with impurities in the first place?

 

[George-ananda]

Well, I think Advaita Vedanta certainly makes the best sense of things for our thinking minds.

This Krishna-Loka idea seems to still have a cult of personality tinged in it. It seems a dualist view and not a non-dualist (Advaita)=(God and creation are not-two) view.

 

[Viraja]

So, even after liberation, if souls are not completely free from desires, jealousy and other impurities, then why do you think its called 'moksha' in Vaishnavism? Shouldn't liberation be the complete elimination of all impurities and thus breaking free from the cycle of rebirth/samsara?

Are there any scriptural verses that speaks of this type of moksha (with impurities)?

I agree, some heavenly planets are temporary places of enjoyment, like brahmaloka, swargaloka, chandraloka. These are places where rebirth takes place. Souls stay there for some time and again return to material world, once fruits of their karmas are exhausted. But Vaikuntha and Goloka, as far as i know, are permanent spiritual abodes, which continues to exist even after cosmic dissolution (pralaya). I wonder why souls are sent back from Vishnu's permanent abode. If its because of our impurities, then i don't understand why are we allowed to enter Vishnu's abode with impurities in the first place?

Namaste Greg,

My personal opinion is that moksha is just a really-extended stay in Vaikuntha or Goloka, as per Vaishnavism is concerned. I have some random thoughts to support my view but they are not suitable for this thread. I do not have any scriptures backing up my claims. I just think so because any amount of devotional service made throughout the entire lifetime does not guarantee freedom from desires per se but they can be sufficient for some form of mukthi. Sorry, in my world, not everyone who is liberated is still a 'Suka muni'.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

The hare krishnas or gaudiya vaishnavas believe that after attaining moksha and going to the spiritual Goloka abode, the liberated jivas again fall down to the material world, if they become envious of Krishna while living in His abode ... or if they don't want to serve Krishna in Goloka anymore.
:=)

Your thread title is about Vaishnavism in general, but the actual content is specific to Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

This is not the view of mainstream Vaishnavism (Dvaita and Vishishtadvaita).

 

[Aupmanyav]

As for why the liberated fall back in 'maya', we have the story of Sage Narada wanting to marry a princess. Although the whole maya was contrived by Lord Vishnu only to teach Narada.
So, Narada comes to Lord Vishnu and says that he wants to marry this princess. Would the Lord give him his beautiful personality to him. Lord ays, no problem, but gives him the face of a monkey. Confident Narada goes to the Swayamvara (girl choosing a groom for herself), but the princess and her friends laugh loudly when they see Narada (with his monkey face). She asks him to look his face in the mirror.
Tricked, Narada goes back to Lord Vishnu, curses him that one day the Lord will need the help of monkeys. The Lord Says, 'You were very confident to have overcome 'maya', therefore I planned this play. Learn that any one, at any time, may fall a victim of 'maya'. 'Maya' is very strong.'
Saint Kabir said, "Maya bari thagini hum jani" (I know that 'maya' is a great deceiver).

But to keep the words of Sage Narada, Lord took the avatara of Lord Rama, where he required the help of monkeys to defeat Ravana. Of course, that was not the only reason why Lord Vishnu took the Rama avatara. There were many, like fulfilling his promise given to Dasharatha and Kaushalya in their previous birth, or saving Ahilya or killing Ravana and Kumbhakarna who were his door keepers in Vaikuntha so that they could return to Vaikuntha quickly.

Hah, a strong atheist telling you all this.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

Your thread title is about Vaishnavism in general, but the actual content is specific to Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

This is not the view of mainstream Vaishnavism (Dvaita and Vishishtadvaita).

Even though i spoke only about the gaudiya sect, people here can discuss how moksha is like in various branches of vaishnavism.
Oh, and i made some changes to my original post.

 

[Jainarayan]

I used to drive myself to distraction trying to figure out where I fit in vis-à-vis sampradaya, school of Vedanta, etc. I finally accepted being simply a Vishnu bhakta, though a bad one at that.

The closest I come to thinking about where I fit is probably Viśiṣṭādvaita or Acintyabhedābheda (imo they are virtually the same). While the idea of spending eternity in Vaikuntha or Goloka eternally in the presence of God, with cows mooing, bees buzzing, flowers always in bloom is a nice romantic image, I don’t think that’s reality. In fact, it smacks of the Christian and Islamic images of an afterlife paradise.

I rather think it’s what Sri Krishna says that one attains His nature:
And whoever, at the end of his life, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt. BG 8.5

Because throughout the Gītā He makes it clear He is Brahman, and He knows what He is, we also become aware we are Brahman. I can chant aham brahmāsmi until the cows come home (see what I did there? ) but I don’t really understand it because I’m still embodied.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

I used to drive myself to distraction trying to figure out where I fit in vis-à-vis sampradaya, school of Vedanta, etc. I finally accepted being simply a Vishnu bhakta, though a bad one at that.

The closest I come to thinking about where I fit is probably Viśiṣṭādvaita or Acintyabhedābheda (imo they are virtually the same). While the idea of spending eternity in Vaikuntha or Goloka eternally in the presence of God, with cows mooing, bees buzzing, flowers always in bloom is a nice romantic image, I don’t think that’s reality. In fact, it smacks of the Christian and Islamic images of an afterlife paradise.

I rather think it’s what Sri Krishna says that one attains His nature:
And whoever, at the end of his life, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt. BG 8.5

Because throughout the Gītā He makes it clear He is Brahman, and He knows what He is, we also become aware we are Brahman. I can chant aham brahmāsmi until the cows come home (see what I did there? ) but I don’t really understand it because I’m still embodied.

Do you think Krishna was speaking of his personal brahman nature in the Gita verse you quoted?

In other words, can we attain Krishna's personal/saguna/sakara brahman nature, with two hands, flute, discus etc. if we leave this world remembering Him? ... or can we attain only the impersonal invisible brahman nature as per that Gita verse?

 

[Jainarayan]

Do you think Krishna was speaking of his personal brahman nature in the Gita verse you quoted?

In other words, can we attain Krishna's personal/saguna/sakara brahman nature, with two hands, flute, discus etc. if we leave this world remembering Him? ... or can we attain only the impersonal invisible brahman nature as per that Gita verse?

I believe it's only the impersonal. Viśiṣṭādvaita is Advaita with qualifications. As the Wiki article describes it, all diversity subsuming to a whole. That whole is the impersonal Brahman, which is what we are part of. So no flute, chakra, peacock feather for us.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

I believe it's only the impersonal. Viśiṣṭādvaita is Advaita with qualifications. As the Wiki article describes it, all diversity subsuming to a whole. That whole is the impersonal Brahman, which is what we are part of. So no flute, chakra, peacock feather for us.

I thought this 'whole' as per visistadvaita is the cosmic body of narayana. If i remember correctly i read somewhere, that his head being the abode of the devas, the torso is where we common folks dwell and the lower portion is where the demons reside.