Morality -- I wonder...

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The was a novel written in 1903 by a fellow named Guy Thorne, and it was a huge best-seller in the first half of the Twentieth Century. The novel was called When It Was Dark: The Story of a Great Conspiracy. In it, a wealthy and powerful English Jew, Constantine Schuabe, a known adversary of Christian clergy, plots to destroy Christianity by falsely disproving the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He exploits the financial situation of English Biblical expert Sir Robert Llewelyn and coerces him to plant an inscription upon an ancient tomb entrance. This inscription, supposedly written by Joseph of Arimathea, stated that he took the body of Christ after his death and concealed it there.

Well, of course, as some might expect, the result is a terrible decline in morality in the world: people stealing from one another, fornicating in the streets, and all manner of depravity and demonstrations of man’s inhumanity to ma, until the plot is finally exposed, and everybody returns to being morally good again.

The book, in my view, is pure trash, but it seems to express something that often appears in these forums – the notion that we cannot be good without God, that without religion, morality is impossible.

So I’d like all the religious members (and I don’t care which religion) to think about this for a moment: if somehow the very basis of your religion was disproved – if Christ or Moses or Muhammad or Krishna or Vishnu or the Bab or whomever were proved not to have existed or to have been frauds – which of the following would you suddenly feel you should start doing?

• Beat your spouse
• Be unfaithful
• Give up the ties of family, and teach your children to be immoral for profit
• Steal from anyone
• Lie whenever you think you can gain by it
• Murder whom you don’t like
• Rape, and ignore others who rape

I ask this question seriously, because by asking you to consider what you might do if it were just up to you and no deity to obey, then you are telling us who you really are.

 

[GardenLady]

None of the above. The premise that it necessarily makes a difference is ridiculous (not you, those who put it forward). Presumably, most of the people here, as I do, know many people who are not religious and are caring, helpful, socially responsible, charitable people. If my religion (mainstream Christianity) were proven false, it would not change my behavior toward my spouse, broader family, friends, or community.

 

[idea]

if somehow the very basis of your religion was disproved –

Yes, the very basis of my religion was disproved. I spent 20 years 100% completely convinced Joseph Smith was a prophet, that the Mormon church was led by an actual prophet. I gave up my career (I'm female, commanded to stay home with kids - men provide, women have kids) I went to the temple, cleaned the church building, took care of kids=worked for the church (volunteer work) my entire life revolved around church - you might still be able to see my previous posts here - see anything more than 5 years back.

The religion was disproved, the foundation fell away with one phone call. A detective called asking me to help ID kids in child porn videos, made by a church leader I thought was "called by God." Not just one bad apple - other leaders knew, and covered for him, kept him in leadership, didn't protect the kids. Years and years of this. Then I meet others, in support groups, who went through the same thing. I learned that sensation - the spirit? That sensation isn't from God, it's "elevation", happens in all grpups, a herd bonding instinct.

Yes, the very basis of my religion was disproved.

I still do not drink alcohol.
I still wear modest clothing.
I am still married (he left too), am faithful, our marriage is better now. Family, not church, first.
I still volunteer just as many hours, just not for the church, I volunteer at food pantry, and with students. I work at low-income, minority serving community college and put in waaaay more hours than I get paid for.


Changes:
Family first. I used to leave home to serve church leaders - drive their kids around, take care of their pets when they were away, cook food for them, organize events for them - I no longer serve the church, I serve my own family first.

I am no longer against LGBTQ (thankfully as one of my amazing 4.0 honors scholarship awarded kids is LGBTQ).

I no longer think only women should cook/clean/nurture kids - my husband now helps cook, we both equally nurture kids. Men are nurturing just as women are. Women can work just as men can. My husband and I are closer now with shared responsibilities - rather than living in separate spheres.

For me, the immoral stuff was within the church.

From unhealthy codependency to responsible self-reliance.

From wrong priorities to putting my family first.

From second-class citizen (women do not lead, do not hold priesthood, have no authority), to being equally yoked with my husband - being his wife instead of a dependent.

From teaching my kids unhealthy sexist roles, to showing my kids unconditional love - allowing them to define their pronouns, define their family, have a career AND family.

Ok, end of soap box.
Big hugs to those going through the midlife awakening transition. It takes time, but is better on the other side.

So. Much. Better.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Yes, the very basis of my religion was disproved. I spent 20 years 100% completely convinced Joseph Smith was a prophet, that the Mormon church was led by an actual prophet. I gave up my career (I'm female, commanded to stay home with kids - men provide, women have kids) I went to the temple, cleaned the church building, took care of kids=worked for the church (volunteer work) my entire life revolved around church - you might still be able to see my previous posts here - see anything more than 5 years back.

The religion was disproved, the foundation fell away with one phone call. A detective called asking me to help ID kids in child porn videos, made by a church leader I thought was "called by God." Not just one bad apple - other leaders knew, and covered for him, kept him in leadership, didn't protect the kids. Years and years of this. Then I meet others, in support groups, who went through the same thing. I learned that sensation - the spirit? That sensation isn't from God, it's "elevation", happens in all grpups, a herd bonding instinct.

Yes, the very basis of my religion was disproved.

I still do not drink alcohol.
I still wear modest clothing.
I am still married (he left too), am faithful, our marriage is better now. Family, not church, first.
I still volunteer just as many hours, just not for the church, I volunteer at food pantry, and with students. I work at low-income, minority serving community college and put in waaaay more hours than I get paid for.


Changes:
Family first. I used to leave home to serve church leaders - drive their kids around, take care of their pets when they were away, cook food for them, organize events for them - I no longer serve the church, I serve my own family first.

I am no longer against LGBTQ (thankfully as one of my amazing 4.0 honors scholarship awarded kids is LGBTQ).

I no longer think only women should cook/clean/nurture kids - my husband now helps cook, we both equally nurture kids. Men are nurturing just as women are. Women can work just as men can. My husband and I are closer now with shared responsibilities - rather than living in separate spheres.

For me, the immoral stuff was within the church.

From unhealthy codependency to responsible self-reliance.

From wrong priorities to putting my family first.

From second-class citizen (women do not lead, do not hold priesthood, have no authority), to being equally yoked with my husband - being his wife instead of a dependent.

From teaching my kids unhealthy sexist roles, to showing my kids unconditional love - allowing them to define their pronouns, define their family, have a career AND family.

Ok, end of soap box.
Big hugs to those going through the midlife awakening transition. It takes time, but is better on the other side.

So. Much. Better.

Thank you so much for your post. Your strength and integrity shine through every word.

 

[GardenLady]

Idea, you are validated. I left my church of origin (cradle Catholic here) in large part due to the abuse scandal and the cover-ups and RICO-like behavior of the church. I already had some major doctrinal issues with the church for many years but had been ignoring them. I am now far happier in a mainstream protestant denomination (ELCA Lutheran).

 

[Jimmy]

That list is goofy. Anyway I think most intelligent people realize they don’t need religion to be good. I think they just like it in their lives cuz they enjoy aspects of it.

 

[Twilight Hue]

None of the above. The premise that it necessarily makes a difference is ridiculous (not you, those who put it forward). Presumably, most of the people here, as I do, know many people who are not religious and are caring, helpful, socially responsible, charitable people. If my religion (mainstream Christianity) were proven false, it would not change my behavior toward my spouse, broader family, friends, or community.

I agree in general

Morality is really an individuals viewpoint, and reflects on a collective group that shares those same or similar views.

 

[1213]

....

• Beat your spouse
• Be unfaithful
• Give up the ties of family, and teach your children to be immoral for profit
• Steal from anyone
• Lie whenever you think you can gain by it
• Murder whom you don’t like
• Rape, and ignore others who rape

...

Why do you think people do all those things all the time, even when we all should know they are wrong?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Why do you think people do all those things all the time, even when we all should know they are wrong?

I don't know that they are wrong. How do you know that?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The was a novel written in 1903 by a fellow named Guy Thorne, and it was a huge best-seller in the first half of the Twentieth Century. The novel was called When It Was Dark: The Story of a Great Conspiracy. In it, a wealthy and powerful English Jew, Constantine Schuabe, a known adversary of Christian clergy, plots to destroy Christianity by falsely disproving the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He exploits the financial situation of English Biblical expert Sir Robert Llewelyn and coerces him to plant an inscription upon an ancient tomb entrance. This inscription, supposedly written by Joseph of Arimathea, stated that he took the body of Christ after his death and concealed it there.

Well, of course, as some might expect, the result is a terrible decline in morality in the world: people stealing from one another, fornicating in the streets, and all manner of depravity and demonstrations of man’s inhumanity to ma, until the plot is finally exposed, and everybody returns to being morally good again.

The book, in my view, is pure trash, but it seems to express something that often appears in these forums – the notion that we cannot be good without God, that without religion, morality is impossible.

So I’d like all the religious members (and I don’t care which religion) to think about this for a moment: if somehow the very basis of your religion was disproved – if Christ or Moses or Muhammad or Krishna or Vishnu or the Bab or whomever were proved not to have existed or to have been frauds – which of the following would you suddenly feel you should start doing?

• Beat your spouse
• Be unfaithful
• Give up the ties of family, and teach your children to be immoral for profit
• Steal from anyone
• Lie whenever you think you can gain by it
• Murder whom you don’t like
• Rape, and ignore others who rape

I ask this question seriously, because by asking you to consider what you might do if it were just up to you and no deity to obey, then you are telling us who you really are.

Well, most people would remain moral I guess. I mean I switched from atheism to being religious and my morality didn't change.

 

[1213]

I don't know that they are wrong. How do you know that?

Is it ok to you, if any of those is done to you without you accepting it? If not, that is why it is wrong for you to do any of them.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Is it ok to you, if any of those is done to you without you accepting it? If not, that is why it is wrong for you to do any of them.

I use like or don't like, but I don't use right wrong.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Why do you think people do all those things all the time, even when we all should know they are wrong?

I'm guessing that you either did not read my whole post, or did not understand it.

The whole point is that I DON'T believe people "do all those things all the time." No matter their religion, or lack of it, I think people are generally able to behave reasonably ethically, with some exception. The point of the story I was trying to tell is that, contrary to those who claim that we cannot be good without God, we can indeed, and generally would. The book I mentioned makes the alternate claim: that if it were proved that Jesus were just a mortal man, most people would lose their faith and turn to immorality and evil. The notion is silly, which was my whole point in asking which of them you would do -- if you lost your religion.

 

[1213]

I use like or don't like, but I don't use right wrong.

Why?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Why?

Because it is a subjective model, but not the only one. I use a different one.

 

[1213]

Because it is a subjective model, but not the only one. I use a different one.

But isn't like or don't like also subjective?

I don't think what I said about good and right is subjective, because I think all people would be against evil things to be done to them against their will. If all people think so, then I think it is objective, doesn't depend on person.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Once again: The Biological Basis of Morality ...

 

[Kenny]

• Be unfaithful
• Steal from anyone
• Lie whenever you think you can gain by it

Unfaithful is what I was going to be before I met Jesus. I would have simply fulfilled it.
Not steal from anyone. But cheating / stealing is pretty much rampant in the business world already. One would just go with the flow
Every lie is an attempt to gain something.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

But isn't like or don't like also subjective?

I don't think what I said about good and right is subjective, because I think all people would be against evil things to be done to them against their will. If all people think so, then I think it is objective, doesn't depend on person.

That is subjective, it is just so that it is all people.

 

[Colt]

The was a novel written in 1903 by a fellow named Guy Thorne, and it was a huge best-seller in the first half of the Twentieth Century. The novel was called When It Was Dark: The Story of a Great Conspiracy. In it, a wealthy and powerful English Jew, Constantine Schuabe, a known adversary of Christian clergy, plots to destroy Christianity by falsely disproving the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He exploits the financial situation of English Biblical expert Sir Robert Llewelyn and coerces him to plant an inscription upon an ancient tomb entrance. This inscription, supposedly written by Joseph of Arimathea, stated that he took the body of Christ after his death and concealed it there.

Well, of course, as some might expect, the result is a terrible decline in morality in the world: people stealing from one another, fornicating in the streets, and all manner of depravity and demonstrations of man’s inhumanity to ma, until the plot is finally exposed, and everybody returns to being morally good again.

The book, in my view, is pure trash, but it seems to express something that often appears in these forums – the notion that we cannot be good without God, that without religion, morality is impossible.

So I’d like all the religious members (and I don’t care which religion) to think about this for a moment: if somehow the very basis of your religion was disproved – if Christ or Moses or Muhammad or Krishna or Vishnu or the Bab or whomever were proved not to have existed or to have been frauds – which of the following would you suddenly feel you should start doing?

• Beat your spouse
• Be unfaithful
• Give up the ties of family, and teach your children to be immoral for profit
• Steal from anyone
• Lie whenever you think you can gain by it
• Murder whom you don’t like
• Rape, and ignore others who rape

I ask this question seriously, because by asking you to consider what you might do if it were just up to you and no deity to obey, then you are telling us who you really are.

* Multiple mating seems fun so the prohibition of adultery would vanish.


Religion, having been the main factor in the preservation of values, if religion was suddenly abandoned on a large scale then society would rapidly revert back to earlier times in evolution.