Morality -- I wonder...

[Father Heathen]

Religion, having been the main factor in the preservation of values, if religion was suddenly abandoned on a large scale then society would rapidly revert back to earlier times in evolution.

What does religion have to do with genetic adaptation?

 

[Colt]

What does religion have to do with genetic adaptation?

Nothing

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

* Multiple mating seems fun so the prohibition of adultery would vanish.


Religion, having been the main factor in the preservation of values, if religion was suddenly abandoned on a large scale then society would rapidly revert back to earlier times in evolution.

Why? I have never been religious, never believed in deities, and yet I'm entirely faithful to my partner, and have been for decades. No gods, but didn't "revert back," either. Do you have a glib explanation for that?

 

[Colt]

Why? I have never been religious, never believed in deities, and yet I'm entirely faithful to my partner, and have been for decades. No gods, but didn't "revert back," either. Do you have a glib explanation for that?

Being faithful to a partner is a value derived from religion. Thats where the idea came from. But you haven't been faithful to God, the source of the values preserved in religion.

 

[fantome profane]

Being faithful to a partner is a value derived from religion. Thats where the idea came from. But you haven't been faithful to God, the source of the values preserved in religion.

No religion created itself, they are all human inventions. Any idea or value that can be found in religion was put there by a human. It was a human who wrote that scripture, invented that ritual, gave that sermon etc.

I agree that religion can preserve and convey values, but those ideas and values came from a human mind.

Two other things I should point out. Religion can preserve and promote some very positive human values, but it can also preserve and promote some absolutely horrible ideas.

And religion is not the only kind of human tradition that can preserve and promote ideas and values. Legal systems, philosophical treaties, even the stories we tell. And of course our own experiences.

 

[Colt]

No religion created itself, they are all human inventions. Any idea of value that can be found in religion was put there by a human. It was a human who wrote that scripture, invented that ritual, gave that sermon etc.

I agree that religion can preserve and convey values, but those ideas and values came from a human mind.

Two other things I should point out. Religion can preserve and promote some very positive human values, but it can also preserve and promote some absolutely horrible ideas.

And religion is not the only kind of human tradition that can preserve and promote ideas and values. Legal systems, philosophical treaties, even the stories we tell. And of course out own experiences.

Thats a transcendent observation making the argument that we are all just energy, math, mechanical, material. Without realizing it I believe you are a spiritual being having a human/material experience.

I believe that throughout the evolution of life the presence of the Cosmic Mind or "the spirit" has asserted a spiritual gravity translated into morals and values which may appear to have been simply human inventions. The birth of religious institutions was about the preservation of those spiritually derived values.

 

[fantome profane]

Thats a transcendent observation making the argument that we are all just energy, math, mechanical, material. Without realizing it I believe you are a spiritual being having a human/material experience.

I believe that throughout the evolution of life the presence of the Cosmic Mind or "the spirit" has asserted a spiritual gravity translated into morals and values which may appear to have been simply human inventions. The birth of religious institutions was about the preservation of those spiritually derived values.

Even with this philosophy, you are admitting we don‘t need religion to be moral. We can go directly to the source. I believe that source is human empathy and reason, and you believe that source is “the Cosmic Mind” or “spiritual gravity”. But that doesn’t actually make any difference. Neither of us is arguing that “religion“ is the ultimate source. So the OP makes a lot of sense.

 

[Colt]

Even with this philosophy, you are admitting we don‘t need religion to be moral. We can go directly to the source. I believe that source is human empathy and reason, and you believe that source is “the Cosmic Mind” or “spiritual gravity”. But that doesn’t actually make any difference. Neither of us is arguing that “religion“ is the ultimate source. So the OP makes a lot of sense.

I've always known that a person can be moral yet deny God. We disagree on the source.

 

[joelr]

The was a novel written in 1903 by a fellow named Guy Thorne, and it was a huge best-seller in the first half of the Twentieth Century. The novel was called When It Was Dark: The Story of a Great Conspiracy. In it, a wealthy and powerful English Jew, Constantine Schuabe, a known adversary of Christian clergy, plots to destroy Christianity by falsely disproving the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He exploits the financial situation of English Biblical expert Sir Robert Llewelyn and coerces him to plant an inscription upon an ancient tomb entrance. This inscription, supposedly written by Joseph of Arimathea, stated that he took the body of Christ after his death and concealed it there.

Well, of course, as some might expect, the result is a terrible decline in morality in the world: people stealing from one another, fornicating in the streets, and all manner of depravity and demonstrations of man’s inhumanity to ma, until the plot is finally exposed, and everybody returns to being morally good again.

The book, in my view, is pure trash, but it seems to express something that often appears in these forums – the notion that we cannot be good without God, that without religion, morality is impossible.

So I’d like all the religious members (and I don’t care which religion) to think about this for a moment: if somehow the very basis of your religion was disproved – if Christ or Moses or Muhammad or Krishna or Vishnu or the Bab or whomever were proved not to have existed or to have been frauds – which of the following would you suddenly feel you should start doing?

• Beat your spouse
• Be unfaithful
• Give up the ties of family, and teach your children to be immoral for profit
• Steal from anyone
• Lie whenever you think you can gain by it
• Murder whom you don’t like
• Rape, and ignore others who rape

I ask this question seriously, because by asking you to consider what you might do if it were just up to you and no deity to obey, then you are telling us who you really are.

The morality argument never seemed to make sense. Religious folks say you need God, but they discard all the religious morals that no longer fit with current society.
They also recognize that billions of other religious people in different religions are following made-up Gods and are still no better or worse.
Then there are millions of secular people and those in atheist versions of Hindu or other Eastern philosophies. Again, not running around doing terrible things.
Then they say "but without God you COULD just decide to kill people?"
But first you would also likely be killed or sent to prison and killed. Whatever you do to people tends to come back at you.

Finally they forget about all of the people in religions who still commit terrible crimes. In their religion. It was an "epidemic" of child molestation?!

The last of the argument is "without God nothing matters". Except nothing can matter even with a God. You can become tired with the randomness of the world, Gods allowing billions to believe different religions or just become tired of being a pawn in a God experiment. You can still come to the same conclusion with or without a God.

In fact modern philosopher Nagel, who religious people often quote because he argues against materialism said - " In The Last Word, he wrote, "I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn't just that I don't believe in God and, naturally, hope that I'm right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that."[22]"

Thomas Nagel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

He doesn't want that. For him a God would diminish meaning.

 

[Colt]

The morality argument never seemed to make sense. Religious folks say you need God, but they discard all the religious morals that no longer fit with current society.
They also recognize that billions of other religious people in different religions are following made-up Gods and are still no better or worse.
Then there are millions of secular people and those in atheist versions of Hindu or other Eastern philosophies. Again, not running around doing terrible things.
Then they say "but without God you COULD just decide to kill people?"
But first you would also likely be killed or sent to prison and killed. Whatever you do to people tends to come back at you.

Finally they forget about all of the people in religions who still commit terrible crimes. In their religion. It was an "epidemic" of child molestation?!

The last of the argument is "without God nothing matters". Except nothing can matter even with a God. You can become tired with the randomness of the world, Gods allowing billions to believe different religions or just become tired of being a pawn in a God experiment. You can still come to the same conclusion with or without a God.

In fact modern philosopher Nagel, who religious people often quote because he argues against materialism said - " In The Last Word, he wrote, "I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn't just that I don't believe in God and, naturally, hope that I'm right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that."[22]"

Thomas Nagel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

He doesn't want that. For him a God would diminish meaning.

Nagel doesn't want the universe to be like that? Be like what? Created by a loving heavenly father who has an eternal plan for his children that want it?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Nagel doesn't want the universe to be like that? Be like what? Created by a loving heavenly father who has an eternal plan for his children that want it?

Some of us don't like having our plans made for us. We prefer to make our own.

 

[Colt]

Some of us don't like having our plans made for us. We prefer to make our own.

Rebellious children are just like that. But years later in life some come to understand the wisdom of their parents. I trust Gods way.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why do you think people do all those things all the time

The vast majority doesn't. It's a dishonest statement to imply that such is somehow "common" behavior.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Rebellious children are just like that. But years later in life some come to understand the wisdom of their parents. I trust Gods way.

Rebellious children indeed! My father and I never saw each other's faces. My mother, I saw in court at 7 years old when I was finally removed after the second time my step-father nearly killed me. I met my mother once again when I was 47 -- she was, by then, married to her fifth drunken abuser.

 

[Colt]

Rebellious children indeed! My father and I never saw each other's faces. My mother, I saw in court at 7 years old when I was finally removed after the second time my step-father nearly killed me. I met my mother once again when I was 47 -- she was, by then, married to her fifth drunken abuser.

I'm sorry for your unfair, unjust experience. I can read between the lines in our exchanges and see that you are a nice person. So, I completely understand that when you hear God the Father then you would have a visceral reaction to such an idea.

I have self pity at times but have a great life and had a wonderful childhood. So at times of despair, I envision sitting at the base of the Cross, I look up with blood dripping on my face and tell the Son of God how hard life is. Hes says "yea, tell me about it". .........Im like "sigh", never mind mr big Jesus, ill go back to my life!

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Religion, having been the main factor in the preservation of values, if religion was suddenly abandoned on a large scale then society would rapidly revert back to earlier times in evolution.

This is a very pervasive, harmful myth. It's the basis of people complaining that the world has become more immoral since state-led prayer was removed from public schools, but the evidence is that that praying accomplishes nothing. They never stopped praying in the Catholic church as it was abusing children and covering it up for centuries. More religion is never the answer, and wherever we have had less of it, it pays off, such as with the advent of the secular state, and where its removal from investigations of reality unleashed science. And here you are trying to claim credit for moral thought for the church and its gods when what we actually see from it is an endless trail of immorality and hypocrisy.

This myth is why people are shocked at religious moral failures and why they trusted their children with priests. It's why people put religious symbols on their business cards and logos. It's why my neighbor referred to her grandchildren riding ATVs through our woodlands as them having good Christian fun, as if that made it OK. ATVs, forbidden in woodlands, tear up the ground, terrify the wildlife, and made unwelcome noise, but I guess it's all wholesome if you call it Christian and those opposing it become satanic.

Being faithful to a partner is a value derived from religion.

No, it's not. It's a winning strategy for those who can be faithful easily deduced using reason applied to experience, and not limited to relationships with intimate partners. There are great rewards for the person who can be internally consistent and true to his word - my definition of personal integrity.

But you haven't been faithful to God, the source of the values preserved in religion.

The rational ethicist has a better source for his values than the claims of others about unseen gods with commandments for us - his own conscience. Mine has been a reliable guide to right behavior for decades now, obedience to which not only feels good, but reliably leads to other desirable outcomes in the interpersonal affairs characterizing daily life.

Nagel doesn't want the universe to be like that? Be like what? Created by a loving heavenly father who has an eternal plan for his children that want it?

I'll bet he feels the same about the Abrahamic god as I and many others do. Of course we're better off if no such god exists. Believers have simply accepted that it is a benevolent deity whose word can be trusted, but that has been ruled out by the evidence supporting evolutionary theory even if the theory is ever falsified. Also, for the believer, what did the angels who rejected heaven see that made them uninterested in being there, and how much of eternity would have passed before you did the same? A million years before you get tired of it and simply want to be elsewhere? A billion? A billion billion? Remember, this deity likes free will, not "robots."

Dawkins has a pretty low opinion of the deity of the Old Testament: "The god of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

Why would we prefer that such a thing and its hell and demons and torture existed over its nonexistence?

 

[joelr]

Nagel doesn't want the universe to be like that? Be like what? Created by a loving heavenly father who has an eternal plan for his children that want it?

Oh Geez, Nagel doesn't think that? He's one of the smartest people alive, he doesn't believe legends about heavenly fathers? Of course the story is nice but he knows those are mythology. He is talking about a deism, a creator deity that created everything rather than universes evolving from natural unconscious forces.

Loving heavenly father? Have you read the OT? Or the NT where people in different religions go to eternal fire? Not loving.

 

[joelr]

Thats a transcendent observation making the argument that we are all just energy, math, mechanical, material. Without realizing it I believe you are a spiritual being having a human/material experience.

It is what we are, it can be demonstrated. Please demonstrate a soul. By the way, the new A.I. program GPT4 in many ways is now smarter than people, has common sense, creativity and other transcendent qualities. And it's just the very very beginning. A.I. will surpass the human mind in every way and it will also be conscious.

No soul to be found.

I believe that throughout the evolution of life the presence of the Cosmic Mind or "the spirit" has asserted a spiritual gravity translated into morals and values which may appear to have been simply human inventions. The birth of religious institutions was about the preservation of those spiritually derived values.

We have a perfectly reasonable explanation for morals as part of our evolutionary mind.
If we left it to religious institutions we have scripture which is not a moral guide.
Slavery, children born into permanent slavery, plunder of war, stoning for adultery, killing 6 cities because they have a different religion, no other Gods allowed, no graven images, floods, plagues, eternal hell, a devil who cannot be stopped, anti-gay rhetoric, women remain silent in church.
and many more.

The basic ideas about don't murder, lie, treat others kindly is also found in religions just as old, older and in secular societies like the ancient Greeks. Who were the founders of modern logic. So it isn't religious at all? You have zero argument that it is.
How did ancient Greeks come up with anti-slavery, a free society, logic, ethics, morals, wisdom, as a secular culture?

Nothing here suggests any religious institution having any truth a secular society didn't also have. Or a society with a false religion from your perspective like Hinduism which is very philosophical.
One entire book of Proverbs is an Egyptian book? Nothing suggests any religion had access to special knowledge. Just stories about how their Gods are real. There is no evidence of any spirit or cosmic mind. Or does the cosmic mind endorse non-Hebrew slavery?

 

[Colt]

It is what we are, it can be demonstrated. Please demonstrate a soul. By the way, the new A.I. program GPT4 in many ways is now smarter than people, has common sense, creativity and other transcendent qualities. And it's just the very very beginning. A.I. will surpass the human mind in every way and it will also be conscious.

No soul to be found.





We have a perfectly reasonable explanation for morals as part of our evolutionary mind.
If we left it to religious institutions we have scripture which is not a moral guide.
Slavery, children born into permanent slavery, plunder of war, stoning for adultery, killing 6 cities because they have a different religion, no other Gods allowed, no graven images, floods, plagues, eternal hell, a devil who cannot be stopped, anti-gay rhetoric, women remain silent in church.
and many more.

The basic ideas about don't murder, lie, treat others kindly is also found in religions just as old, older and in secular societies like the ancient Greeks. Who were the founders of modern logic. So it isn't religious at all? You have zero argument that it is.
How did ancient Greeks come up with anti-slavery, a free society, logic, ethics, morals, wisdom, as a secular culture?

Nothing here suggests any religious institution having any truth a secular society didn't also have. Or a society with a false religion from your perspective like Hinduism which is very philosophical.
One entire book of Proverbs is an Egyptian book? Nothing suggests any religion had access to special knowledge. Just stories about how their Gods are real. There is no evidence of any spirit or cosmic mind. Or does the cosmic mind endorse non-Hebrew slavery?

Atheists and secularist plagiarize their morality, they ignore their creator as the source! Spiritual influences around the world within all evolved cultures result in common values. Religious institutions are about the preservation of those values.

 

[Colt]

Oh Geez, Nagel doesn't think that? He's one of the smartest people alive, he doesn't believe legends about heavenly fathers? Of course the story is nice but he knows those are mythology. He is talking about a deism, a creator deity that created everything rather than universes evolving from natural unconscious forces.

Loving heavenly father? Have you read the OT? Or the NT where people in different religions go to eternal fire? Not loving.

A person can be smart but terribly unwise when they take themselves too seriously. Lucifer was like that.

The problem with the Bible is that some of it is true! If we judge the past by the presnt then the past will always come up short! Rather its how we measure progress.