Morality of the Old Testament

[shunyadragon]

This reminds me of an old Charlie King tune, called "Acceptable Risks".

Ooops!

Acceptable Risks by Charlie King about the 1957 Yucca Flats Big Smokey Atomic Test​

Acceptable Risks​

Ohhhh! the unfortunate proliferation of youtube idiocy at the expense of a logical argument.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The Laws and mythology most likely evolved from Sumerian, Babylonian and Phoenician./Canaanite culture and writings, The Hebrews and their writings as a Canaanite tribe, and compiled after !600 BCE. Even the Hebrew YHWH God was originally a Canaanite God with a consort Ashrah,

You seem to be so titillated by that trope.

 

[Elihoenai]

I can think of many occasions when prominent Christian leaders opposed government policies. Martin Luther King Jr. is famous for having called for civil rights legislation-- and he led a movement that brought about the change he sought. There were a great many persons in and out of government at the time who bitterly opposed what he said and what he inspired his followers to seek. And yet he persisted. I just can't buy the idea that tax exempt status has caused every Christian leader to tout government policies and positions.

Martin Luther King Jr., and John F. Kennedy for that matter, were Not Real Christians. Martin Luther King Jr. and John F. Kennedy were Serial Adulterers that Mocked Elohim/God and Elohim/God Killed them off for the Misrepresentation.

I mean the US Churches are not going to preach Real Christianity because that would Destroy the United States if the Congregations accepted Real Christianity. If Real Christianity were taught in the Churches the pews would be empty with no income from Tithes and Offerings for the Pastor Destroying the Church. For example, if US Churches taught so-called Christians to be Vegan and the congregations observe this that would have Catastrophic impact on the Economy with the Meat/Farming Industry and industries associated and dependent on it.

​

 

[Elihoenai]

Do you understand how thoroughly depressing that sounds? Let's say that there are about 10,000 numbered in the elect. There have been over 100 billion people who have lived and died on this planet. The chance that any individual has of being one of the elect would therefore be about 0.00001%. That's not a very inspiring message.

Psalm 51:5

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Matthew 22:14

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


It's a Sobering message that might be Depressing to some. The Few numbers is because those Within and Without Christendom have never Really understood Psalm 51:5 neither do they want to understand. The Entire Holy Scriptures/Bible from Genesis to Revelation is all about the Sinful Fall and Restoration from that Sinful Fall.

Did I mention that I was raised as a Presbyterian, that we lived about half a block from the church and that we went to church every Sunday? Or that I slept through... uh, I mean... I sat very attentively through hundreds of sermons? That I sang (badly) in the youth choir, attended many church family events and study groups?

That is Popular so-called Christianity for the Natural Man that doesn't Really Transform. I practice the Different Christian Gnosticism that is Outcast from Christendom. I'm a Heretic in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church.


Gnosticism

Gnosticism (from Ancient Greek: γνωστικός, romanized: gnōstikós, Koine Greek: [ɣnostiˈkos], 'having knowledge') is a collection of religious ideas and systems that coalesced in the late 1st century AD among Jewish and early Christian sects. These various groups emphasized personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) above the proto-orthodox teachings, traditions, and authority of religious institutions.

Gnosticism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Gnosticism, the Enduring Heresy

I'm certainly not advocating that everyone should be a murderer or a thief, or that no one should worship God in their own way. I'm not even trying to convert everyone-- or even anyone-- to atheism. I'm just trying to show that the Bible says a lot of things that not even its most ardent apologists actually believe.

The Church has benefits for Society as it Acknowledges Morals and does Alms. Although I Am Christian Gnostic Outcast from Christendom, I attend the local Seventh Day Adventist Church contributing to the Offerings because they do work in the Community.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Martin Luther King Jr., and John F. Kennedy for that matter, were Not Real Christians. Martin Luther King Jr. and John F. Kennedy were Serial Adulterers that Mocked Elohim/God and Elohim/God Killed them off for the Misrepresentation.

I mean the US Churches are not going to preach Real Christianity because that would Destroy the United States if the Congregations accepted Real Christianity. If Real Christianity were taught in the Churches the pews would be empty with no income from Tithes and Offerings for the Pastor Destroying the Church. For example, if US Churches taught so-called Christians to be Vegan and the congregations observe this that would have Catastrophic impact on the Economy with the Meat/Farming Industry and industries associated and dependent on it.

Does Real Christianity say anything about capitalization?

 

[Audie]

Can you name them? I can name some of them, but certainly not all of them.

Here's a few:

Plowshares Movement History​

I meant few enough to be named.

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

I meant few enough to be named.

Go ahead. I got time.

 

[shunyadragon]

Martin Luther King Jr., and John F. Kennedy for that matter, were Not Real Christians. Martin Luther King Jr. and John F. Kennedy were Serial Adulterers that Mocked Elohim/God and Elohim/God Killed them off for the Misrepresentation.

I mean the US Churches are not going to preach Real Christianity because that would Destroy the United States if the Congregations accepted Real Christianity. If Real Christianity were taught in the Churches the pews would be empty with no income from Tithes and Offerings for the Pastor Destroying the Church. For example, if US Churches taught so-called Christians to be Vegan and the congregations observe this that would have Catastrophic impact on the Economy with the Meat/Farming Industry and industries associated and dependent on it.

​

Terribly idealistic and egocentric fits well concerning the fallacy of the "Real True Scotsman." Your extreme idealism neglects the reality of the fallible nature of being human including your own fallibility to make such extreme judgements concerning the illusive only "One True Belief."

Your are also neglecting the problematic nature of ancient tribal texts without provenance that resulted in proliferation of different churches and belief systems where your view id one of many.

 

[Audie]

Go ahead. I got time.

Why would I do that?

I'm thoroughly unimpressed with
Bible- morality, or the accomplishments of
the church in promoting anything positive.

If some do, that's exception, not rule.

What's your interest in this?

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

Why would I do that?

I'm thoroughly unimpressed with
Bible- morality, or the accomplishments of
the church in promoting anything positive.

If some do, that's exception, not rule.

What's your interest in this?

You made a claim.

You are under no obligation to offer evidence for your claim, but I was offering you an opportunity to offer evidence should you chose to do so.

I’ll mention Juan Tumba, and put him at the top of the list.

 

[Audie]

You made a claim.

You are under no obligation to offer evidence for your claim, but I was offering you an opportunity to offer evidence should you chose to do so.

I’ll mention Juan Tumba, and put him at the top of the list.

Amuse yourself elsewhere

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

Amuse yourself elsewhere

Where?

 

[DavidSMoore]

Psalm 51:5
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Matthew 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

It's a Sobering message that might be Depressing to some. The Few numbers is because those Within and Without Christendom have never Really understood Psalm 51:5 neither do they want to understand. The Entire Holy Scriptures/Bible from Genesis to Revelation is all about the Sinful Fall and Restoration from that Sinful Fall.

Yes, yes, very distressing. Could you enlighten me as to how the Elect interpret the following psalm:

I am counted among those who go down to the Pit;
I am like those who have no help,
like those forsaken among the dead,
like the slain that lie in the grave,
like those whom you remember no more,
for they are cut off from your hand.
(Psalm 88:4-5, NRSVue)

As I read it, if God no longer remembers the dead, then he can't forgive their sins. If the dead are cut off from his hand, then God can't resurrect them.

Or what about Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, or Psalm 104:5, all of which say that the Earth cannot move?

Or how about this passage from the story of the creation:

And God said, "Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so. God called the dome Sky.
(Genesis 1:6-7, NRSVue)

Why would there be waters above the Earth's atmosphere? Doesn't that imply that the author believed that the universe is filled with water? And why would the atmosphere be in the shape of a dome? A dome shaped atmosphere can't fit over a spherical Earth, so it seems to me that the author must have believed that the Earth is flat. Is that what Gnosticism holds?

And here's the very first passage from the story of creation:

When God began to create the heavens and the earth, the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
(Genesis 1:1-2, NRSVue)

It would seem that the author believed that the substance of the earth and the waters both preexisted before God began the act of creation by saying "Let there be light." That is the opposite of what most Christian sects claim to believe. But is it a fundamental tenet of Gnosticism?

I doubt that I am as knowledgeable as you concerning Gnostic beliefs, but here is an excerpt from a Gnostic document known as "On The Origin of the World" from the Nag Hammadi library:

Since everyone-- the gods of the world and men-- says that nothing has existed prior to Chaos, I shall demonstrate that [they] all erred, since they do not know the [structure] of Chaos and its root. Here [is the] demonstration:
If it is [agreed by] all men concerning [Chaos] that it is a darkness, then it is something derived from a shadow. It was called darkness.
But the shadow is something derived from a work existing from the beginning.
So it is obvious that it (the first work) existed before Chaos came into being, which followed after the first work.
(The Nag Hammadi Library, Translated by Members of the Coptic Library Project of the Institute for Antiquity and Christianity, James M. Robinson Director, (c) E.J. Brill 1977, pg. 162)

The document goes on to describe a time before the time of Yahweh when a previous generation of divine spirits created Chaos. Is that the version of Gnosticism to which you adhere?

 

[Ajax]

“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." Exodus 21:20-21

"As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you and from their families who are with you who have been born in your land; they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness." Lev 25:44-46

My question is simple. Do theists agree with these the verses, or not?
And does God appear to be promoting the totally immoral and now illegal act of slavery?

 

[Elihoenai]

Terribly idealistic and egocentric fits well concerning the fallacy of the "Real True Scotsman." Your extreme idealism neglects the reality of the fallible nature of being human including your own fallibility to make such extreme judgements concerning the illusive only "One True Belief."

Your are also neglecting the problematic nature of ancient tribal texts without provenance that resulted in proliferation of different churches and belief systems where your view id one of many.

Genesis 22:10-12

10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.


That's absolutely correct. I Am an Ultra Extremist Christian Gnostic. True Devoted Religion is Ultra Extremism as Elohim/God taught Abraham. Precisely, Without True Religious Devotion to Elohim/God you Fall prey to the Fallible and Weak Nature.

One way of demonstrating True Religious Devotion to Elohim/God is to Separate like the Amish. Elohim/God has Ordained that I live among True Devoted Satanists.


Amish Abduction - Trailer

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." Exodus 21:20-21

"As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you and from their families who are with you who have been born in your land; they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness." Lev 25:44-46

My question is simple. Do theists agree with these the verses, or not?
And does God appear to be promoting the totally immoral and now illegal act of slavery?

Historically, the Laws of Slavery were contentious issues back in the 1700s and early 1800s.

The Wars of Independence, for example, were Holy Wars.

 

[Ajax]

Historically, the Laws of Slavery were contentious issues back in the 1700s and early 1800s.

The Wars of Independence, for example, were Holy Wars.

Yes, so? What is the your answer to the questions?

 

[dybmh]

The Laws and mythology most likely evolved from Sumerian, Babylonian and Phoenician./Canaanite culture and writings,

From which Sumerian, Babylonian and Phoenician./Canaanite culture and writings, did this law evolve?

​

Exodus 13:16​

​

והיה לאות על־ידכה ולטוטפת בין עיניך כי בחזק יד הוציאנו יהוה ממצרים׃​

And it shall be for a sign upon your hand, and for frontlets between your eyes; for by strength of hand the Lord brought us forth out of Egypt.​

​

Deuteronomy 11:18​

​

ושמתם את־דברי אלה על־לבבכם ועל־נפשכם וקשרתם אתם לאות על־ידכם והיו לטוטפת בין עיניכם׃​

Therefore shall you lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.​

​

From which Sumerian, Babylonian and Phoenician./Canaanite culture and writings, did these law evolve?

​

Deuteronomy:​

22:6​

כי יקרא קן־צפור לפניך בדרך בכל־עץ או על־הארץ אפרחים או ביצים והאם רבצת על־האפרחים או על־הביצים לא־תקח האם על־הבנים׃​

If a bird’s nest chances to be before you in the way in any tree, or on the ground, whether they are young ones, or eggs, and the mother sitting upon the young, or upon the eggs, you shall not take the mother with the young;​

​

22:7​

שלח תשלח את־האם ואת־הבנים תקח־לך למען ייטב לך והארכת ימים׃​

But you shall let the mother go, and take the young to you; that it may be well with you, and that you may prolong your days.​

​

22:8​

כי תבנה בית חדש ועשית מעקה לגגך ולא־תשים דמים בביתך כי־יפל הנפל ממנו׃​

When you build a new house, then you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you should not bring any blood upon your house, if any man falls from there.​

​

22:9​

לא־תזרע כרמך כלאים פן־תקדש המלאה הזרע אשר תזרע ותבואת הכרם׃​

You shall not sow your vineyard with different seeds; lest the fruit of your seed which you have sown, and the fruit of your vineyard, be defiled.​

​

22:10​

לא־תחרש בשור־ובחמר יחדו׃​

You shall not plow with an ox and an *** together.​

​

22:11​

לא תלבש שעטנז צמר ופשתים יחדו׃​

You shall not wear a garment of different sorts, like woolen and linen together.​

​

22:12​

גדלים תעשה־לך על־ארבע כנפות כסותך אשר תכסה־בה׃​

You shall make fringes upon the four quarters of your cloak, with which you cover yourself.​

 

[shunyadragon]

Historically, the Laws of Slavery were contentious issues back in the 1700s and early 1800s.

The Laws of slavery have been contentious issues throughout history with the failure of ancient texts to forbid slavery.

The Wars of Independence, for example, were Holy Wars.

The Wars of Independence were not Holy Wars. Better examples of Holy Wars are the wars between Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The Tribal nature of ancient religions has resulted in persecution, ethnic cleansing, pogroms, and anti-semitism and anti-Islamic violence against other religions up until today.

 

[dybmh]

In the context of that passage, yes-- I agree that the laws were given to the Israelites.

Thank you.

But in the broader context of the Old Testament as a whole I think there's more to it than that.

How? The law is incumbent-or-not. There is no middle ground. It's binary and mutually exclusive.

Here's an excerpt from Isaiah:

"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob,
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths."

And it's written in Habakuk:

כי תמלא הארץ לדעת את־כבוד יהוה כמים יכסו על־ים׃
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

From Isaiah's point of view the teachings of Yahweh were to be disseminated to all the peoples of the world. They weren't just for the Israelites.

It's written in Isaiah 2 that "many people" (עמים רבים) will seek out the temple, the teachings and maybe, depending on the interpretation, the laws of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But that does not mean that the laws are incumbent on them.

Moving on.

... the teachings of Yahweh were to be disseminated to all the peoples of the world.

What are these teachings, in your opinion?