more and more christians believe in karma and reincarnation

[Jainarayan]

Karma and reincarnation are not scriptural. I don't see how anyone claiming to believe in the Bible could adhere to these concepts which are clearly meant to massage those who believe in these concepts to think that there is no finality in judgment to sin. If we are sinners, if we are violating Yahweh's Law, we will perish (Psalm 145:20). We won't have multiple lives. We won't have previous states of existence, deciding fate in future existences. It's all nonsense.

Sola scriptura. A totally ridiculous doctrine, in my open-minded opinion, that leaves no room for the possibility that what Jesus is recorded to have said is the only things he ever said. It requires a Iliteralness that's, as far as I'm concerned, untenable. It's impossible that he was tailed 24/7 by those who wrote down everything he said. It's a heretical teaching rejected by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican and Methodist Churches. Not to mention being rejected by Talmudic scholars when it applies to the Tanakh. Christians think they know more about the Tanakh than Jews do. I'm not sure whether if I find that amusing or sad.

 

[1213]

...Why do more and more christians believe in karma and reincarnation? What is the reason?

Probably because they don't believe in the Bible God and don't know what the Bible teaches and also like more of the non-Biblical ideas.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Well... It's a good thing the Bible isn't the ultimate authority for most people

I think it's also a good thing that most people know that the Bible isn't a reliable source to be the ultimate authority on spiritual topics or on moral issues. I think that it's a realization that comes from reading the Bible without wearing rose-colored glasses, as it was in my case. In my opinion, the Bible has many contradictions, and some of its stories (such as the stories about the life of Jesus) were copied from a few pagan religions that predated both it and Christianity. For the record, I outlined in other posts why I don't believe the Bible's teaching about the afterlife (see here), why I believe that Christianity is heavily influenced by paganism (see here), and the articles I've linked reveal why I doubt the authenticity of the Bible itself. In essence, I don't believe the Bible is inerrant and infallible.

101 Clear Contradictions In The Bible

30 Pairs Of Bible Verses That Contradict One Another

Bible Contradictions, Misogyny, Violence, Inaccuracies interactively visualized

 

[Jainarayan]

Probably because they don't believe in the Bible God and don't know what the Bible teaches and also like more of the non-Biblical ideas.

Probably because they don't believe in the Bible God - This I agree with. It's the reason I am no longer Christian. The difference is that I believe the God of the Bible exists, but he is not the God. I never rejected his existence. To me he is just another deva, a demi-god, in just another pantheon. In this case his origins in the Semitic pantheon.

... don't know what the Bible teaches - This I disagree with because those who reject the Bible and its God do know what it teaches.

... and also like more of the non-Biblical ideas - This goes without saying. The Bible is incompatible, except for the "red letter" verses, i.e. the words of Jesus, with many other religious traditions. Some of what he said reflects bhakti (loving devotion to God) and Advaita Vedanta (in some of its flavors) of Hinduism. If you understand The Force in the Star Wars universe, you get a taste, albeit only a nibble, of Advaita.

 

[Windwalker]

This is totally nonsense and you know it is.

You want to believe I don't believe it. But that is not the case. I do believe it is true that God judges the heart, not mistaken ideas we have in our minds. You on the other hand seem to what to believe for some reason that entry into heaven is based upon getting a passing grade on a theology test. I'd say, I think in your heart of hearts, you can't really believe God is that small, do you? You have to know that is what is nonsense, don't you?

Belief in some vague goodness is not belief in Jesus.

What's vague about Goodness? "Love works no ill". That's not vague, is it? And if you believe in that kind of Love, or Goodness, then that is believing in Jesus, since Jesus is in the incarnation or embodiment. of that. Even if they don't know the first thing about Jesus of Nazareth, but they understand Love, then they know God. They are "following Jesus", if they are following Love. Aren't they?

And why are you creating some either/ or situation as if the heart and mind are totally separate? They aren't.

Why are you claiming I am? But for the purpose of understanding, while they are not totally separate, each does have a different key function they perform. The mind is for thinking, reasoning, and cognizing. The heart is for feelling, intuiting, sensing, and faith. They each have their own primary domains of influence. And the heart is where faith is found, not in reasoning and logic.

So when we "believe in God", that is primarily the heart. That is how it is used in John repeatedly. But you are saying it's primarily about thinking and reasonings. I reject that. That is not biblical belief.

Of course it has to go deeper than mental acceptance, but that just sets the bar higher and means less people are truly saved than we think.

Why are you saying that? There is always greater depths of faith and the experience of God to be had, but why are you saying that unless you can get to those depths, you aren't saved? That's like saying, you weren't really married when you got married, because you have a much deeper and more rooted love with your partner after years together, than when you were just in throes of early infatuation?

Why are you imagining God's love is something you earn by getting at least an A- on the test? It really appears in your language and analogies, you do see 'salvation' as something you need to earn, something you need to live up to for God's acceptance. That to me, is not the way the Love of God works at all. The exact opposite of that actually.

And yes, the gospels demand a belief in a specific God, not just any god. What you have is gooblygook, a attempt to confuse the clear teaching of scripture.

It's actually a clarification of what it teaches. Saying that beliefs in God need to be about ideas, and not the heart, is what muddies scripture making clarification necessary. In this case, your wrong ideas, obscures the message.

 

[Wildswanderer]

What's vague about Goodness? "Love works no ill". That's not vague, is it? And if you believe in that kind of Love, or Goodness, then that is believing in Jesus, since Jesus is in the incarnation or embodiment. of that. Even if they don't know the first thing about Jesus of Nazareth, but they understand Love, then they know God. They are "following Jesus", if they are following Love. Aren't they?

No. Because no one can know real love outside of the Holy Spirit residing in them. And because love isn't the requirement for salvation... it's a fruit of salvation. The requirement is believe in Jesus, not some other god and definitely not in the self's ability to love.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Why are you saying that? There is always greater depths of faith and the experience of God to be had, but why are you saying that unless you can get to those depths, you aren't saved? That's like saying, you weren't really married when you got married, because you have a much deeper and more rooted love with your partner after years together, than when you were just in throes of early infatuation?

Let's review: you said it is all love. I said it's belief. So you say it can't be just the head, but the heart, as if real belief in Jesus can just be mental.
Again, you have to believe and trust in the true God, not some vague idea in your mind. You can not love like Jesus without knowing who he even is.

“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”

Oh look, God does reward faith. He doesn't just let you in for believing in Thor or Allah.

Where does faith come from?

"And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. "

Not by any other name.

 

[Windwalker]

No. Because no one can know real love outside of the Holy Spirit residing in them.

Considering someone can in fact know the unconditional Love of God, before they convert to a religion (think of how many examples there are of those who came to believe and converted in the NT), this poses a problem for what you are suggesting here. According to some people's theology, and I'll assume yours too, that you can't have the Holy Spirit in you until after you've been converted to the religion (something I do not believe). Than what are they responding to internally, if not that Love?

Scripture even says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God". So inside of people who feel "called by God", there is that Spirit already in them in order for them to respond to it. They cannot be a vacuum, and still respond. It's a case of "like recognizes like". How else is it that they can even respond to God, if it isn't God in them they are responding to? It says clearly, it "not from yourselves". It is therefore the Spirit of God, right?

And because love isn't the requirement for salvation... it's a fruit of salvation.

Wrong. It is the sole condition of salvation. But yes, it is also a fruit of it as well though. You doubt this? Let's ask Jesus.

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

~Mt. 22:36-40

"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

~Ro. 13:8-13
​

There are many others of course I can quote, but the point here is that in fact, if you do love as Jesus commanded, you are fulfilling the law of God. Are you saying that doesn't matter, you're still not saved, unless you swear fealty to certain religious doctrines? If so, then respond to this, "For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

If you are fulfilling the law through Love, then you are doing the will of the Father, and Jesus calls you brother, and sister, and mother. And that would include anyone, anywhere, regardless of religious beliefs and doctrines and affiliations. "Love is the fulfillment of the law", teaches the scriptures.

The requirement is believe in Jesus, not some other god and definitely not in the self's ability to love.

No one is claiming the ego is the source of Love, with a capital L. God is the Source of that, and anyone can access that in themselves, if they open themselves to that. And that can happen for anyone, anywhere, regardless of their ideologies and beliefs.

But I ask you, what does "believe in Jesus" mean to you? Theological views? I've already shown that "believe" in scriptures is not primarily a mental thing. Yet that is what I seem to hear you suggesting, as you seem to ignore every point I've made showing it's not.

 

[Windwalker]

Again, you have to believe and trust in the true God, not some vague idea in your mind. You can not love like Jesus without knowing who he even is.

You don't trust some vague idea in your mind. You trust what is in your heart, and say yes to it. It sounds to me as though this is all about ideas in the mind for you. Do you understand it when someone talks about the knowledge or faith of their heart? Have you ever heard that the heart can know what the mind cannot fathom or process, or believe?

“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”

Faith is a heart thing. Don't conflate it with ideas of the mind you call 'beliefs', which is what very many Christian mistaken do. It's all head-based.

Oh look, God does reward faith. He doesn't just let you in for believing in Thor or Allah.

"Let you in". There you go again with earning salvation.

Where does faith come from?

From the Spirit of God within your heart.

"And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. "

Not by any other name.

So the name has magical powers, and by saying the name, God "lets you into" heaven? Tell me you really don't believe this way, do you? This whole "letting you into heaven" thing sounds so "earned". That's not the message of Love of scripture. That's not the Gospel. Read the prodigal son story. It doesn't read, "Good boy, I shall let you in". No, he runs out to meet him. Such a different view of God than this "letting you into heaven" God idea.

 

[Wildswanderer]

You don't trust some vague idea in your mind. You trust what is in your heart, and say yes to it.

The heart without the Holy Spirit is desperately wicked.

 

[Wildswanderer]

There are many others of course I can quote, but the point here is that in fact, if you do love as Jesus commanded, you are fulfilling the law of God. Are you saying that doesn't matter, you're still not saved, unless you swear fealty to certain religious doctrines? If so, then respond to this, "For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

What is God's will. For us to be like Jesus, which is impossible without faith. Faith in who? Not in ourselves. Not in our ability to love like God. Only in his sufficiency, not ours.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So the name has magical powers, and by saying the name, God "lets you into" heaven?

The name is the only name that saves...quit dancing. And yes, salvation has conditions. It's not earned because nothing we do is sufficient to earn heaven, but it does require faith in a specific God.

 

[Fool]

Lol, obviously you aren't reading the verses. Just belief in God isn't enough. It's very specific about what God is in view. No they don't have to believe everything exactly the same but there's some basics you have to believe to be a Christian.

Like the resurrection, and that Christ came in the flesh and died for mankind.
Like it's appointed onto us to die only once and then be judged.
If you don't believe what the Bible clearly says, don't fool yourself into pretending to be a Christian.

there are two deaths

revelation 20:14

 

[Fool]

What is God's will. For us to be like Jesus, which is impossible without faith. Faith in who? Not in ourselves. Not in our ability to love like God. Only in his sufficiency, not ours.

this is typical dualistic thinking because it is the spirit working through self that accomplishes god's works.


so the bible says to glorify god in the body and not somewhere else exclusively


fyi, jesus said you can do all these things and more; if you believe. you're claiming otherwise


john 14:10

 

[Wildswanderer]

this is typical dualistic thinking because it is the spirit working through self that accomplishes god's works.


so the bible says to glorify god in the body and not somewhere else exclusively


fyi, jesus said you can do all these things and more; if you believe. you're claiming otherwise


john 14:10

Believe in who? That's the question.

 

[1213]

...
... don't know what the Bible teaches - This I disagree with because those who reject the Bible and its God do know what it teaches.....

Unfortunately I don't see that to be true. I think it is sad when people reject Bible God without really knowing what they are rejecting.

 

[Fool]

Believe in who? That's the question.

at this point everyone is at least one person removed from jesus via the writer of the gospel/book. so you're relying on belief in the writer using their indirect/direct connection to jesus.


so reading multiple witnesses statements would be better than relying on one single bit of scripture.


jesus believed in god. just like abraham believed in god.


so the believer sees and does what the father is doing


john 5:20

 

[Windwalker]

The heart without the Holy Spirit is desperately wicked.

So you are saying that those without the Holy Spirit speaking in their hearts, would never come to God then? Considering that they do respond and do come to God, then it must be God in their hearts that does that, right? So God is in their hearts, prior to coming to religion, right? That is my point. They already have the Spirit within them, which is what they are responding to.

 

[Windwalker]

What is God's will. For us to be like Jesus, which is impossible without faith. Faith in who? Not in ourselves. Not in our ability to love like God. Only in his sufficiency, not ours.

That is right. It is not by the ego, not by "believerism" that we are "let into heaven". All of that is an effort of our egos. But if you act in accord with Love, with a capital L, or Divine Love, then you are not acting out of the ego, seeking for the sake of the self and its own gain.

Therefore, all who act from that place of unconditional, agape Love, are in fact doing God's will. And that can come from anyone, regardless of their belief ideas, or things that they think about or imagine about God. That would include atheists. It not those who claim to believe in God, but those who act from Love that are the one's doing "the will of the Father".

Our ideas about God, are not what is measured on the scales. It's what is in our hearts.

 

[Windwalker]

The name is the only name that saves...quit dancing.

Dancing? So you do believe that saying the word "Jesus" invokes salvation? Perchance, are you a "Jesus name Pentecostal"? Just curious.

And yes, salvation has conditions.

Is God's Love conditional? Does God no love someone until they meet those conditions first?

So regarding salvation, what conditions do you believe there must be? Conversion to Christianity? Belief in the Trinity? Adult Baptism? Worship on Saturdays? Can you list them for me?

It's not earned because nothing we do is sufficient to earn heaven, but it does require faith in a specific God.

Are you using faith to mean belief in the the sense of believing in a specific theological definition of God from Christian schools of thought?

In reality, when you say "a specific God", what that means is clear. You mean, "a specific idea of God". Right? Eventually, I think you'll get my point here.

"You must believe in a specific idea of God in order to be saved". Do you believe that statement is true, or not true? I would like your answer to this. If true, you've made my point. If not true, than you are in agreement with me.