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Mormon Church To US Supreme Court: Ban Gay Marriage

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Agondonter

Active Member
Preston John:

Even though I am not LDS, I must admit that I like what you say. It is honest, concise, consistent, honorable and supremely intelligible. Your opponents, on the other hand, are intellectually dishonest, inconsistent and largely incoherent while maintaining a double standard that would do a liberal university proud. It's like Lisa Simpson vs. Ralph Wiggam, pearls vs. swine, or reason vs. thuggery.
 
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Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Minimize their exposure to what?

You have to realise that your values and beliefs are not the same as mine. What homosexuals do is their business. There choices. Even anal sex has nothing to do with me, other then i know that for Christians it is a sexual sin. I am a pretty compliant Christian, So, I would naturally shield my children from homosexuality until they are old enough to understand, and even then I would show them my aversion to the acts of homosexuals. I would teach them that it is not what God wants. That He sanctified marriage between a man and a woman for the perpetuation of mankind and that a same sex relationship is not Gods design. Whilst I do that I would make sure that they know that it is th sin that is evil and not the sinner.

The fact that gay people exist?

No, what they do. Everyone has the right to exist.

Because for them there is no diversity in sexual orientation. As their parent, and a Christian, that is what I would teach them, because I want them to live a life that will take them to heaven so I would be selective about telling them about things that would give them to much food for thought making them obesely fat. As adults a couple of them do not share my opinion, probably because they are not practicing Christians, but that is fine, I did the best that I could, if that was bigoted or bias then i accept that

about the fact that people come in all different shapes and sizes,

If I did that then I would be lying. I do not believe that homosexuals are born gay, that it may be a factor i am willing to concede to, but even if it were true, we all have free agency to choose for ourselves. Nobody is forced to be gay or straight it is a choice we all make over time

about treating other human beings with compassion and respect?

Tolerance can be both positive and negative. Yes of course that is a fundamental principle. Just because they do not think as we do does not make them unworthy of compassion and respect. We have two good friend who are gay and my children have always treated them with the greatest respect. I do not think that they knew that they were gay.Why would they, why would I even tell them and create an opportunity for them to judge. I do not find it necessary to tell people that I am heterosexual so why do gay find it necessary, at the earliest opportunity to tell us that they are gay?

Stop assuming that all gay people are promiscuous, irresponsible lunatics who are fisting in the woods with twenty different guys while their kids roam around. That’s ridiculous. They’re not feral animals. They’re perfectly capable of being decent, upstanding human beings who can properly care for a child.

I have read different reports that say that a high proportions are that way, especially in the eighties. I see gay parades where they are dressed in provocative attire and acting intentionally seductive for the cameras. I have seen how gay celebrities act and conduct themselves, but I am not tarring them all with the same brush. I do not think that they are all promiscuous, my two elderly friend are most certainly not, however, those that are is usually what we see via the media
It’s another of your outdated arguments anyway, back from the times when gay people had to hide in their closets and meet clandestinely in remote locations so as not to be arrested and incarcerated.

It is not outdated, it is a constant. God, and His commandments, are the same today, tomorrow and forevermore, set in stone. That is what you see in me, a person who strives to keeps Gods commandments,regardless as to the generation I come from. It is the world that has moved away from God to a similar state as Sodom and Gomorrah. As a man, that is a part of the world, your perceptions are influenced by the world, and what you see is the norm in your world is far removed from my perceptions. We live in different worlds. You live in a world that is socially declining and you have been desensitise to what they do and how they act. The simple thing of giving your seat to a lady or the elderly seems to have disappeared. Sex has become a matter of fact act now with both men and women instigating it. Wierd sex has taken centre stage and is openly discussed for everyone to hear. When women go out for an evening they will be looking for someone to sleep with, even though they might not know him. Recreation drugs help to knock down inhibitions so that they can do things that they would not normally do, something that spurned gays on. And on and on. That maybe acceptable to the world, but it is not to me.

I think we’ve grown and matured as a society quite a bit over the last 40 years. We’ve extended much deserved rights to African Americans, to women, to gay people and most other minorities.

This is where our differences become all to apparent. I believe that the polar opposite is true. I believe that we are in the midst of a spiritual Armageddon that is fast approaching the wickedness of Sodom and Gomorrah. We are experiencing a catastrophic degeneration of our moral values that is resulting in a deluge of anti-social behaviour throughout our society. I understand why you don't see what I see, which is probably because you do not know any different. If you are raised in a society tolerant of sexual perversion then you will accept it as the norm. I grew up in a society that were intolerant to sexual perversion so it is not the norm to me. You and I live in different worlds.

I came across and article called "The Immortality Explosion" quite a long Christian article show the moral decline o our society. Here are a few exerts from someone that speaks my language but will appear foreign to you. This is how most christian think and believe, with the exception of some clergy

The Immorality Explosion!

To some, the world exists in a state that appears to be improving. Great achievements in science, technology, medicine and economics have led to advancements of every kind imaginable. As problems arise, we seem unlimited in our ability to solve them. But are we really solving them? Are the inevitable wounds of advancement being healed by technology?

One area in which knowledge has flourished is that of sex. A plethora of information—and instruction—is now available. But has it allowed us to make better choices?

No doubt you can see the depth to which sex permeates society. One can no longer turn on the television without finding a program that has sexual undertones. Magazines are filled with stories, photos and features that would shock those of past generations. There is now also the Internet, offering a veritable buffet of perversions.
Having parents isn’t a burden that children can’t handle. I don’t know why you assume gay parents are having wild sex with random strangers all the time and talking to their children about it.

Society has embraced the concept of political correctness. It allows all people to live their lives however they choose as long as “it doesn’t hurt anyone else.” The “PC” attitude has spawned an era of tolerance that, before our time, was unknown. Everyone and everything is now tolerated—or is it?

Children are supposed to be childlike—innocent—throughout childhood! Sexuality should never even enter their thinking. Yet they are constantly bombarded with—force-fed—images and products that push them to be sexy.

The sexualization of children has spawned a generation of adults who have delved into every perversion under the sun. Relationships have also become twisted and perverted. This has devastated marriages, which are now more likely to end in divorce than not.

A two-parent family is the best and most productive environment in which to raise children who will one day grow into sound, well-rounded adults.

It is ideal when the mother is able to care for her children, while the father provides an income for the family. This helps children to grow up in a happy and stable environment. Children with this foundation have sound male and female role models.
Same reasons anyone else would want to raise children. My cousin has always wanted a child to care for - being a lesbian doesn't change anything about that.

Sadly, this has all but disappeared. There is such a wide array of “families,” the new “normal” family structure is nearly impossible to define.

It was very different even a few generations ago. Couples would date and get to know each other. Sexual relations would not have been an option until marriage. The idea of living together would have been completely foreign.

What about the concept of two parents of the same gender? How would a child learn to understand the differences between genders and know their roles in society?

https://realtruth.org/articles/114-tie.html
A major part of the problem comes from people not understanding or knowing what their roles should be. When you show that there are differences between men and women, many angry and loud voices enter the fray. They usually overpower the one speaking. But understand! Men and women were NOT created equal. We are not the same. This is not to say that men are better or vice-versa, but the simple fact is: Males and females are different.

The concept of homosexuality is neither new nor original. It has existed since ancient times. Near the fall of any dominant society, homosexuality flourished. Be it in Sodom and Gomorra, or ancient Greece, the proliferation of homosexuality has become the great indicator that a society’s days were numbered.

Make no mistake. Homosexuality is wrong and is sin (Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Deut. 23:17-18; I Cor. 6:9; I Tim. 1:10; Jude 7). God Himself calls it an abomination. It is unnatural and mocks the very concept of marriage and reproduction. It is clear what God teaches about homosexuality. In no way would He create someone as homosexual. It must be a learned behavior. The road it has taken in modern society has changed it from criminal, to a mental disorder, to a celebrated and encouraged “lifestyle.” Never has a subsection of society seen such sweeping changes and acceptance in such a short period.

Nevertheless, the survival of homosexuality also links it to other perversions—such as pedophilia. A 1998 study showed that 86% of pedophiles described themselves as homosexual. In fact, the Encyclopedia of Homosexuality verifies, “that until very recently man/boy love relationships were accepted as a part, and indeed were a major part, of male homosexuality.” The links continue: Alan Bell and Martin Weinberg found that 25% of white gay men have had sexual relations with boys under age 16.

This is obviously not to say that all homosexuals look to corrupt children, but historically, when taken as a whole, the man-boy relationship has been prevalent.

And as shocking as it may seem, schools are helping to promote this! In just the last year, various organizations have begun to promote curricula with increasing success. Schools all across the country have begun to teach children how to be homosexual—be it by cross-dressing, reading about homosexual relationships or even booklets teaching children what sodomy involves.

Many times, such programs are delivered to children without parental knowledge. Again, do you know if your children are being taught any of the following popular courses?:
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
I love your double-standards.
I placed the word "false" in parenthesis to show that I was expressing my opinion.

I did not want it to look like I supported the idea that the Bible did not condemn homosexuality in any way, yet I also did not want to inject my opinion in a way that would be misconstrued as me applying my interpretation of the Bible to everyone.

So I placed the word "false" in parenthesis to show that it was my opinion and to avoid applying a double standard.

I had already expressed my opinion a number of times about homosexuality and what the Bible said.

I did not feel the need to spell out my opinion once again because I thought it was clear.

However, I was wrong. You were too dense to realize that I placed parenthesis around the word "false" to express my opinion about that idea.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Preston John:

Even though I am not LDS, I must admit that I like what you say. It is honest, concise, consistent, honorable and supremely intelligible. Your opponents, on the other hand, are intellectually dishonest, inconsistent and largely incoherent while maintaining a double standard that would do a liberal university proud. It's like Lisa Simpson vs. Ralph Wiggam, pearls vs. swine, or reason vs. thuggery.
Thank you.

Like it or not, you are my best friend now.

:)
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Sure, but it doesn't make much sense that it would only happen to less than half of us, does it?

I'm not aware of any such electrostatic charge and I'm not even sure how that would make sense given the way the body organizes and uses energy.

I don't know why energy and intelligence would be synonymous.
I am so sorry.

Your post was the only one I actually wanted to respond to, but instead I wasted my time and effort on less than ideal posters.

I am going to respond to your post next. I promise!
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
If I did that then I would be lying. I do not believe that homosexuals are born gay, that it may be a factor i am willing to concede to, but even if it were true, we all have free agency to choose for ourselves. Nobody is forced to be gay or straight it is a choice we all make over time

May I ask when you chose to be heterosexual? Was it hard to make up your mind?

Ciao

- viole
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I am so sorry.

Your post was the only one I actually wanted to respond to, but instead I wasted my time and effort on less than ideal posters.

I am going to respond to your post next. I promise!
Sounds great! I eagerly await your response.

I really am going to respond to your post like I promised I would. I just have to find it again! LOL
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
You choose to be heterosexual the moment you have sex with someone of the opposite sex.
I know a gay man who did have sex with a woman, as an effort to try to "prove to himself and the world," but it really didn't do anything for him. It was at that moment he realized that he most definitely is gay and he has zero sexual attractions towards women.
Another problem with that statement is comes the fact most people know if they are attracted to men, women, or both, before they even have sex for the first time.
 

Agondonter

Active Member
Thank you.

Like it or not, you are my best friend now.

:)
From where I sit, it looks like ethics and religion have been discarded for politics and power. Secularism's guiding principles have been reduced to hypersensitivity, political correctness, and moral corruption whose tactics are misinformation, unfounded accusations and thuggery. Every forum I've visited on the internet, whether religious, political or philosophical, is dominated by spoiled brats bound and determined to see some kind of aggression from anyone expressing values that establish boundaries for acceptable behavior and take offense. Serious discussion on important matters is as rare as hairs on a frog.

People should be allowed to entertain whatever values that are pleasing to them an do whatever they want so long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Attack Christianity for all its offenses, real and imagined, without fear of retaliation, but don't talk about how Islam treats women and homosexuals because nothing can be done about it and Muslims might kill you, so it's best to put it out of mind. At least, that seems to bethe thrust of their reasoning.

Ask them how a society can be created without guidelines as to what is and is not acceptable, and every skeptic of religion here will give you vagaries evasiveness. Use the adage "pearls before swine" and they scream bloody murder.

Will Western civilization last to see the 22nd century? I have my doubts.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
May I ask when you chose to be heterosexual? Was it hard to make up your mind?

Ciao

- viole
I didn't even notice it. It just gradually became a part of who I am. What I know, from person experience and through raising six children, is that I was not born straight, and neither did any of my children. I wasn't even interested in girls until I was around 14. Prior to that sex was not a serious part of my life. I ended up with a girl, as opposed to a boy, because that was what my dad did, and his dad, and all of my Aunties and Uncles. It was the norm. There was no other choice. Give people a choice and the will take it for a host of different reasons. I have a cousin who was born a girl but had to have an operation to make her a man because physically she was both man and women, but that was a physical abnormality that she had not control over.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
I know a gay man who did have sex with a woman, as an effort to try to "prove to himself and the world," but it really didn't do anything for him. It was at that moment he realized that he most definitely is gay and he has zero sexual attractions towards women.
Another problem with that statement is comes the fact most people know if they are attracted to men, women, or both, before they even have sex for the first time.
I have determined from your comments that you believe that a person is born either as a hetero- or homosexual?

The issues that I have with that line of reasoning is that human sexuality is more complex than simply being "born that way".

There are many adults in our society who have a sexual attraction toward children, animals and trees. Would you make the claim that they were "born that way"?

In reference to your example I see a man who struggles with "same-sex attraction" who made a conscious decision to be a heterosexual. However, the experience did not satisfy his predisposition.

I take it that the feelings of disappointment he had after having sex with a woman would be equivocal to a man who struggles with his attraction for children after he had sex with an adult female. His predisposed lust for children was not satisfied.

Does having a predisposed attraction for the same-sex make a person a homosexual?

I'd like to answer that question with another question. Does having a predisposed attraction for children make a person a pedophile?

The answer for both questions would be "No." A person who has same-sex attraction is not a homosexual until he/she has sex with someone of the same-sex. The same can be said for the person who has a sexual attraction toward children. If he/she does not have sex with children then he/she is not guilty of pedophilia.

Now, as to your friend's "zero sexual attraction toward women", I find that hard to believe. I mean, he did "perform the deed", did he not? He was able to start and finish?

Claiming that someone has a "zero" level of attraction toward a female human being would indicate that that person would also not be that attracted to male human beings. They are so anatomically similar. I think "zero sexual attraction" is a bit of an exaggeration.

We are all born with different predispositions toward certain sins. Some people are born with a temper. That temper, however, does not necessarily need to be with those people for their entire lifetime. A temper can be quelled or it can be fueled, depending on the upbringing and life-choices made by that person.

No one is born homosexual. They may be born with a predisposed same-sex attraction, but that attraction can be uprooted or made to flourish depending on the person's upbringing and life-choices.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I placed the word "false" in parenthesis to show that I was expressing my opinion.

I did not want it to look like I supported the idea that the Bible did not condemn homosexuality in any way, yet I also did not want to inject my opinion in a way that would be misconstrued as me applying my interpretation of the Bible to everyone.

So I placed the word "false" in parenthesis to show that it was my opinion and to avoid applying a double standard.

I had already expressed my opinion a number of times about homosexuality and what the Bible said.

I did not feel the need to spell out my opinion once again because I thought it was clear.

However, I was wrong. You were too dense to realize that I placed parenthesis around the word "false" to express my opinion about that idea.

The problem is that you placed the false parameter outside of the interpretation of LDS but within the views of other. So you are still calling every other interpretation/views wrong just as you blast Sojourner for doing. He put forward your interpretation is wrong, you respond in the same manner but call him out for projection while you have done the same.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
In reference to your example I see a man who struggles with "same-sex attraction" who made a conscious decision to be a heterosexual. However, the experience did not satisfy his predisposition.
And that is most definitely putting words in his mouth. Homosexuality is still stigmatized, especially in Conservative areas, especially in regards towards homosexual men, where sexual acts that are ok for a woman to do (such as performing fallatio) became an insult for a man to do. It wasn't the same-sex attractions he was struggling with, but the judgements of society he was struggling with. He didn't have sex with a woman for himself, he did it for others. It was that experience that made him realize he can't live his life for others in such a way.
Now, as to your friend's "zero sexual attraction toward women", I find that hard to believe. I mean, he did "perform the deed", did he not? He was able to start and finish?
Not only was he not able to not finish, he felt like vomiting (probably hyperbole, but he definitely did not enjoy the experience).
The answer for both questions would be "No." A person who has same-sex attraction is not a homosexual until he/she has sex with someone of the same-sex. The same can be said for the person who has a sexual attraction toward children. If he/she does not have sex with children then he/she is not guilty of pedophilia.
That is not a logic position, as people do not have to have sex to know they have attractions towards men, women, prepubescent children, cross dressers, or whatever. You could poll the students at any random high school, and though many would still be virgins, you would find that nearly all of them are able to identify their sexual orientation.
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Wow. I still can’t believe how you are misunderstanding such simple concepts.

It’s hard for me to believe that you are actually this dense. Perhaps you are simply feigning misunderstanding to try to annoy me?

Anyways, I have thought up a parable that may help you understand. Jesus used them to convey messages to simple-minded people, so I think it might just work here.

The Village

I am going to liken our world unto a village which is isolated from the rest of the modern world by wilderness. (Kind of like the village from the movie “The Village”)

The village was founded by great explorers (Prophets, Apostles, Saints) who had travelled the outside world and they saw and experienced everything (received revelation from God) before eventually settling down and building this village isolated from all other people.

Even though the village was isolated, the founders of the village had left behind a record of what they had seen and experienced out in the world (the Bible) so that their descendants in the village would not be ignorant of the outside world.

However, as the village grew, different groups of people reacted to what was written in the book differently.

Some villagers believed that the record was true, even if they could not imagine buildings tall enough to touch the clouds or creatures in the oceans large enough to swallow a person. Others felt that the stories were too fantastic to be true. They had never seen the things described for themselves so they assumed that they must not exist.

As generations went by the villagers became more and more diverse in their ideas and they had formulated all sorts of theories and speculations about what the book meant. For example, some of them did not know what the word “airplane” meant, because they had never seen one and the descriptions left in the record were too vague, so they debated on what an “airplane” was and they came up with differing theories.

Other villagers used the ignorance of their neighbors to explain away what the record said. “Those are just stories. There is no ‘outside world’. Everything that is known, and can ever be known is in this village and the surrounding wilderness. Don’t read that book or believe in the nonsense of old crazy men.”

Then there was a curious young man (Joseph Smith) who had grown up reading from the book and he wanted to know for himself if what the book said was true. So he left the village and travelled into the wilderness until he came upon the civilization of the modern-world (Received revelation from God after earnestly seeking for the truth). He found what he had been looking for. He saw and experienced many things. He came to know what an “airplane” was and how it worked and many other wonderful things.

He returned to the village joyously, ready to share with everyone what he had seen and experienced. Not only that, but he also brought another book written by explorers, and what was written in that book agreed with what was written in the old book that had been passed down for generations among them. It did not agree with all the theories that many of the villagers had formulated about what was written in the old book, but with the knowledge and experience he had from the outside world, the young man knew how to properly interpret the old book and he knew that it agreed with the book he had received.

When he finally returned to the village and shared what he had experienced and also the book that he had received, many of the villagers laughed at him. Some said that there was nothing beyond the wilderness, so they stopped listening to him immediately. Others were curious, but when he started sharing things about the outside world that did not agree with the theories that had been formed they rejected everything he had to say.

However, there were some villagers who listened and they were intrigued by what he had said. They had grown up reading the old book too and what the young man was saying sounded familiar to them. Those who were intrigued read the book that the young man had brought from the outside world and they compared it to the old book that they already had and they knew that both of the books were describing the same things.

These villagers asked the young man what they should do now that they knew he was telling the truth. The young man told them to go out into the world and become explorers themselves, as he had, so they can truly know for themselves that what was written in the books was true. Those that wanted to know did go out and they returned to the village with first-hand knowledge of everything the books recorded and also of the testimony of the young man.

This group of villagers formed an organization and called themselves “The Explorers” (LDS Church) because they knew the outside world with first-hand knowledge, not just from what was written in the old book. The Explorers tried to convince other villagers that what was written in the old book was true and that all people should become Explorers and come to know for themselves that the old book was true and that the testimony of the young man was also true by going out into the world and experiencing it first-hand.

Then enters a silly ignorant girl (you) who listens to what an Explorer had to say (me) then she asks him, “Do you believe what was written in the old book?” The Explorer replied that he did believe what was written in the old book. He knew that what was written was true and he quoted from the old book often to support what he claimed.

The silly ignorant girl then said, “I don’t believe that ‘airplanes’ are as you describe. The old book does not describe them that way, therefore, you cannot claim that they are vehicles that fly through the sky.”

The Explorer then tells her that he did not come by his knowledge of “airplanes” just from the descriptions recorded in the old book, but he had personally seen airplanes when he had travelled to the outside world. He explained that all Explorers had gone out into the world and seen these things for themselves so they had first-hand knowledge of these things, so they could correctly interpret what the old book meant when it described “airplanes”.

The silly ignorant girl then said, “But you quoted from the old book to prove that what you said was the truth. If you quote from the old book then that must mean that the old book is the only source of the knowledge that you claim to have.”

The Explorer realizes that the girl is silly and ignorant, but he wants her to understand, so he explains again that he was only quoting from the old book to support what he had already known from his travels in the outside world. The old book supported what he had claimed, but it was not his only source for this knowledge. His main source of knowledge was from his personal experience out in the world.

The silly ignorant girl then claimed that since the old book had been in the village longer than the Explorer had, then all that he had learned must have come only from the old book, and that she did not believe he had any first-hand knowledge of these things because she had never seen what the Explorer had claimed to see. She had never left the village and all she knew about the outside world was from the old book and from the theories formulated by other villagers who had never travelled to the outside world and experienced it for themselves either.

No matter how hard the Explorer tried to get the silly ignorant girl to understand that he had first-hand knowledge of the things the old book described, she would not listen and kept saying the same silly and ignorant arguments over and over. “Since you quoted from the old book, it must be your only source. You do not have first-hand experience because I have never seen what you are describing. This old book has been around longer than you so it must be your only source and since I do not agree with your interpretation of what an ‘airplane’ is I claim that you are wrong and that you have been deceived.”

The Explorer then slaps the silly ignorant girl in the face and all was well.

Again - you are calling me names, - and that pretty much sums you up.

And again you try to twist what was said.

The LDS pages quote the Bible as their source.

AND - I asked YOU for an LDS source saying otherwise, - as you keep twisting what is being said.

You have not provided it.

And they said - ""We love and revere the Bible. The Bible is the word of God. It is always identified first in our canon, our “standard works.”



*
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
You choose to be heterosexual the moment you have sex with someone of the opposite sex.
Seriously? Are you saying you weren't heterosexual until the first time you had sex? If I'd actually had a word to describe my sexual orientation back when I was 6 years old, I'd have called myself heterosexual. And I would have definitely identified as heterosexual throughout my teens and all the time I was dating my husband. As it was, I just liked boys. :p

It was not hard for me at all.
Of course it wasn't. It wasn't hard for you because it came naturally. You speak of it as a choice, though. Would you mind explaining the thought process you went through which led up to this "choice?" I can't recall ever "choosing" to be attracted to little boys instead of little girls (I did have a major crush on the little boy down the street when I was 5 and he was 6, but it was just how I felt). At any rate, since it was apparently different for you, would you mind explaining the the process of choosing took place.
 
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