Mormon Discussion: The Witnesses

[Watchmen]

Everyone has to get their own testimony. You can only rely on another's for so long. That said, we have the testimonies of the three and eight witnesses to the Book of Mormon that members and the curious can look to. However, it seems that many of these "witnesses" did not see or handle the gold plates at all. Rather, they saw the plates in vision or with their "spiritual eyes."

Does it trouble you that accounts that these witnesses did not actually handle the plates conflicts with the "testimony" given in the introductory pages to the Book of Mormon?

I'm interested in what the still-believers have to say, and how they reconcile these accounts.

 

[Katzpur]

Everyone has to get their own testimony. You can only rely on another's for so long. That said, we have the testimonies of the three and eight witnesses to the Book of Mormon that members and the curious can look to. However, it seems that many of these "witnesses" did not see or handle the gold plates at all. Rather, they saw the plates in vision or with their "spiritual eyes."

Does it trouble you that accounts that these witnesses did not actually handle the plates conflicts with the "testimony" given in the introductory pages to the Book of Mormon?

I'm interested in what the still-believers have to say, and how they reconcile these accounts.

Which of the witnesses who claimed to have handled the plates later denied that this was the case? I can only recall having seen the phrase, "spiritual eyes" with respect to one of the witnesses, and I've always kind of wondered what "spiritual eyes" really are. I think we'd have to come to an understanding as to what spiritual eyes are before we make much headway on this topic. I think that it's a pretty sure thing that the plates actually did exist, and I believe that people other than Joseph Smith saw them.

 

[DeepShadow]

Yeah, I'm going to need specific sources to refer to before I comment on the actual witnesses.

That being said, my testimony is rooted in the church today, at this instant. There is nothing I could learn about someone in the 1800's that would convince me that Thomas S. Monson is not a true prophet. That's like telling someone who works at the Howard Hughes Medical Center that their work isn't sincere, because Hughes started the center as a tax dodge. That's technically true; Hughes funneled huge amounts of cash to a medical research fund in his name, with no apparent intention of doing any research. After his death, his friends decided to actually make his lie into the truth.

So even if you could come up with verifiable statements where all three witnesses denied their testimonies (which I highly doubt), or where all three talked about "spiritual eyes" (agree with Katzpur, only one said that) or even come up with a signed document by all three saying that they made it all up (good luck)...well then, the joke's on them, because somehow God managed to restore the true gospel into the church behind their backs while they weren't looking.

So, please provide your sources. I'm eager to discuss them, and I'll go down the rabbit hole as far as you like. But my testimony is not even on the table here. I'll even go so far as to say that I think hanging your testimony on something other than the current, living Gospel in the current, living church is spiritually dangerous.

 

[Watchmen]

It's late so I'll post later. Although, given the comments so far, I question whether anyone will look at the issue with an open mind.

 

[Watchmen]

I need to look into this further to understand which witnesses the sources are describing but here are some quotes.

"He only saw the plates with a spiritual eye” – Joseph Smith Begins His Work, Vol. 1, 1958 “As shown in the vision” – Zenas H. Gurley, Jr., Interview with David Whitmer on January 14, 1885

“Never saw the plates with his natural eyes but only in vision or imagination”
– Letter from Stephen Burnett to "Br. Johnson," April 15, 1838, in Joseph Smith Letter Book, p. 2

“They were shown to me by a supernatural power”
– History of the Church Vol. 3, Ch. 21, p. 307-308

“...when I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver nor David & also that the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it, the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundation was sapped & the entire superstructure fell in heap of ruins, I therefore three week since in the Stone Chapel...renounced the Book of Mormon...after we were done speaking M Harris arose & said he was sorry for any man who rejected the Book of Mormon for he knew it was true, he said he had hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or a handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city throught [sic] a mountain. And said that he never should have told that the testimony of the eight was false, if it had not been picked out of—–—[him/me?] but should have let it passed as it was..."
– Letter from Stephen Burnett to "Br. Johnson," April 15, 1838, in Joseph Smith Letter Book, p. 2

 

[Scott C.]

Everyone has to get their own testimony. You can only rely on another's for so long. That said, we have the testimonies of the three and eight witnesses to the Book of Mormon that members and the curious can look to. However, it seems that many of these "witnesses" did not see or handle the gold plates at all. Rather, they saw the plates in vision or with their "spiritual eyes."

Does it trouble you that accounts that these witnesses did not actually handle the plates conflicts with the "testimony" given in the introductory pages to the Book of Mormon?

I'm interested in what the still-believers have to say, and how they reconcile these accounts.

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are accounts that contradict the above. I would be surprised however, if it turned out that those accounts are accurate and every witness did not actually see and handle the plates. I believe the testimony is true and literal.

 

[Watchmen]

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are accounts that contradict the above. I would be surprised however, if it turned out that those accounts are accurate and every witness did not actually see and handle the plates. I believe the testimony is true and literal.

You know what's interesting about the testimony of the eight witnesses? We don't have any evidence they actually signed this statement. The earliest transcript of this statement shows Oliver Cowdry "signed" each individual's name. Additionally, almost every single witness was related somehow, which might suggest credibility issues.

Why would you be surprised if it turned out accounts to the contrary were accurate?

 

[Scott C.]

You know what's interesting about the testimony of the eight witnesses? We don't have any evidence they actually signed this statement. The earliest transcript of this statement shows Oliver Cowdry "signed" each individual's name. Additionally, almost every single witness was related somehow, which might suggest credibility issues.

Why would you be surprised if it turned out accounts to the contrary were accurate?

I've heard the credibility argument many times, but not the argument that they never actually testified that they literally saw the plates. Since I believe the restoration story, I would be surprised if such an error entered into a prominent historical claim.

 

[rrosskopf]

You know what's interesting about the testimony of the eight witnesses? We don't have any evidence they actually signed this statement. The earliest transcript of this statement shows Oliver Cowdry "signed" each individual's name. Additionally, almost every single witness was related somehow, which might suggest credibility issues.

Why would you be surprised if it turned out accounts to the contrary were accurate?

Each had plenty of time to refute their testimony; none ever did.

A bounty was offered to any witness who would deny their testimony; it was never collected. Plus we have death-bed testimony to their families that they actually saw what they saw.

 

[rrosskopf]

"He only saw the plates with a spiritual eye”

The witnesses never indicated that they thought it wasn't real. They merely expressed that they were transformed in some manner unknown to us. The eight witnesses give us the practical; we hefted the plates, thumbed through them, etc., while the three witnesses give us the spiritual - they heard the voice of God declare the translation to be correct.

 

[Watchmen]

Simply not true Ross. I'll provide more evidence later.

 

[DeepShadow]

As far as I can tell, Martin Harris is the only witness who ever used the "spiritual eyes" statement, and he made many, many other statements that were not so obtuse. His deathbed statement, for example, has him pointing to his own eyes and ears and saying he had seen/heard with them.


Gentlemen, do you see that hand? Are you sure you see it? Are your eyes playing a trick or something? No. Well, as sure as you see my hand so sure did I see the angel and the plates.

—Martin Harris, quoted in "Statement of William M. Glenn to O. E. Fischbacher," May 30, 1943, Cardston, Alberta, Canada

Well, just as plain as you see that chopping block, I saw the plates

—Martin Harris, quoted in "Statement of Comfort Elizabeth Godfrey Flinders to N. B. Lundwall," September 2, 1943, Ogden, Utah

 

[DeepShadow]

“They were shown to me by a supernatural power”
– History of the Church Vol. 3, Ch. 21, p. 307-308

I don't see the problem with this statement. An angel qualifies as a supernatural power.

 

[DeepShadow]

Nor does Harris ever state that he saw the plates with his spiritual eyes only. On the contrary, he explicitly stated that he saw them with his natural eyes as well:

"The Prophet Joseph Smith, and Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer and myself, went into a little grove to pray to obtain a promise that we should behold it with our natural eyes, that we could testify of it to the world (emphasis added)."

Martin Harris Interview with Ole A. Jensen, July 1875 in Ole A. Jensen, "Testimony of Martin Harris (One of the Witnesses of the Book of Mormon)," undated (c. 1918), original in private possession, photocopies at Utah State Historical Society, LDS Church Archives, and Special Collections of BYU's Harold B. Lee Library

 

[Watchmen]

Nor does Harris ever state that he saw the plates with his spiritual eyes only. On the contrary, he explicitly stated that he saw them with his natural eyes as well:

"The Prophet Joseph Smith, and Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer and myself, went into a little grove to pray to obtain a promise that we should behold it with our natural eyes, that we could testify of it to the world (emphasis added)."

Martin Harris Interview with Ole A. Jensen, July 1875 in Ole A. Jensen, "Testimony of Martin Harris (One of the Witnesses of the Book of Mormon)," undated (c. 1918), original in private possession, photocopies at Utah State Historical Society, LDS Church Archives, and Special Collections of BYU's Harold B. Lee Library

It's a contradiction. No credibility.

 

[DeepShadow]

Not at all: He saw it with his natural and spiritual eyes, together. In some statements, he speaks of one, and in others he speaks of another. No contradiction.

Also, have you found any statements by any of the other ten witnesses about the "spiritual eyes"? If not, then how can this not be attributed to simply a spiritual figure of speech on the part of one witness?

 

[dianaiad]

It's late so I'll post later. Although, given the comments so far, I question whether anyone will look at the issue with an open mind.

I believe that this is true...beginning with the writer of the OP. I would be interested in your proof that..."many" (I would, personally, say that 'many' would be more than one out of the three and eight witnesses) claimed that they had seen only with their 'spiritual eyes.' Since the claim seems to be that 'many' (and again, you will have to define that word for me) such statements destroys the credibility of all, I suggest that you support it a bit better.

 

[Watchmen]

Harris admitted he had only seen the plates with his spiritual eyes (meaning he did not see any physical plates):

“While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates.” – EMD 2:346-47

“I never saw the gold plates, only in a visionary or entranced state.” – EMD 2:346-47

“He only saw the plates with a spiritual eye” – Joseph Smith Begins His Work, Vol. 1, 1958 “As shown in the vision” – Zenas H. Gurley, Jr., Interview with David Whitmer on January 14, 1885

“Never saw the plates with his natural eyes but only in vision or imagination” – Letter from Stephen Burnett to "Br. Johnson," April 15, 1838, in Joseph Smith Letter Book, p. 2

“They were shown to me by a supernatural power” – History of the Church Vol. 3, Ch. 21, p. 307-308

“...when I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver nor David & also that the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it, the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundation was sapped & the entire superstructure fell in heap of ruins, I therefore three week since in the Stone Chapel...renounced the Book of Mormon...after we were done speaking M Harris arose & said he was sorry for any man who rejected the Book of Mormon for he knew it was true, he said he had hefted the plates 56 repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or a handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city throught [sic] a mountain. And said that he never should have told that the testimony of the eight was false, if it had not been picked out of—–—[him/me?] but should have let it passed as it was..." – Letter from Stephen Burnett to "Br. Johnson," April 15, 1838, in Joseph Smith Letter Book, p. 2

The foreman in the Palmyra printing office that produced the first Book of Mormon said that Harris “used to practice a good deal of his characteristic jargon and ‘seeing with the spiritual eye,’ and the like.” – Mormonism: Its Origin, Rise, and Progress, p.71 Two other Palmyra residents said that Harris told them that he had seen the plates with “the eye of faith” or “spiritual eyes” – EMD 2:270 and 3:22

John H. Gilbert, the typesetter for most of the Book of Mormon, said that he had asked Harris, “Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?” According to Gilbert, Harris “looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, ‘No, I saw them with a spiritual eye.” – EMD 2:548

 

[Prestor John]

I hope that after I'm dead and buried people won't take advantage of my memory and tell others what I "really" meant or what I "actually" saw.

I hope they take my word about what I believed and experienced rather than what someone else says.

 

[Watchmen]

I hope that after I'm dead and buried people won't take advantage of my memory and tell others what I "really" meant or what I "actually" saw.

I hope they take my word about what I believed and experienced rather than what someone else says.

Cuts both ways, dude.