Mormons: DNA Shows that Native North Americans were Never Jewish. What is your Response to This?

[MSizer]

Do you accept the DNA evidence as refuting the traditional doctrine of the LDS church, or do you think somehow that science is mistaken? If you admit that the DNA evidence must be correct, then how do you uphold any prophetic claims of Joseph Smith?

 

[Jose Fly]

I've seen some of the LDS apologetics for this bit of inconvenient data. They're quite amusing.

 

[MSizer]

I've seen some of the LDS apologetics for this bit of inconvenient data. They're quite amusing.

And it's only part of the picture. There's also the archeological and anthropological evidence. In short, the book of Mormon is completely false historically. I'm curious how they manage to get around this and continue to believe in Joseph Smith at all.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

The same way people continue to believe in other religious figures that some might not find convincing.

 

[MSizer]

The same way people continue to believe in other religious figures that some might not find convincing.

Yes but in this case the Book of Mormon is clearly fictitious. I may believe that much of the bible is fictitious, but I don't have much evidence to back that up with. On the other hand, we can actually see that the book of mormon was made up.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

On the other hand, we can actually see that the book of mormon was made up by a liar.

This is going to sound weird to you, but even if the BoM was written by a liar, if it leads one person to true spirituality, it's still worth something. I can't just offhand dismiss a religion because parts of it are proven inaccurate. Not when it has changed the lives of people for the better.

 

[MSizer]

This is going to sound weird to you, but even if the BoM was written by a liar, if it leads one person to true spirituality, it's still worth something. I can't just offhand dismiss a religion because parts of it are proven inaccurate. Not when it has changed the lives of people for the better.

Thanks for assuming I've never thought of that oh so deep and philisophical point. As an atheist activist and presenter on morality, it's never even occured to me that some people derrive inspiration from religion to lead "good" lives (whatever a "good" life is).

The point I'm trying to make is that they're basing a worldview on something that has been proven to be false. They can't even get the history correct in their own back yard, so how do they expect anyone to believe them about Kolob?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have to ask, with your approach to such a question, do you really expect a response?

 

[Apex]

I have to ask, with your approach to such a question, do you really expect a response?

I sure hope he doesn't.

 

[Katzpur]

Do you accept the DNA evidence as refuting the traditional doctrine of the LDS church, or do you think somehow that science is mistaken? If you admit that the DNA evidence must be correct, then how do you uphold any prophetic claims of Joseph Smith?

How much do you know about Mitochondrial DNA, haplogroups and how they disapear through genetic drift, the founder effect, and how population bottlenecks work? Have you ever read up on the deCODE Project in Iceland, which is an excellent example of the results of a population bottleneck in completely obliterating an entire genetic line? If you can discuss your position and address the issues raised by these factors, I'd be happy to address the topic with you. Otherwise, it would be a complete waste of my time.

 

[Katzpur]

I've seen some of the LDS apologetics for this bit of inconvenient data. They're quite amusing.

I'll tell you what's really amusing. It's that people insist on arguing against a claim the Latter-day Saints aren't even making. Phrase the argument correctly and of course your're going to win. Just so that we're on the same page, we do NOT claim that "Native Americans are of Israelite origin." Our claim is that it is entirely possible that a small family from Israel could have arrived in America, to a continent that was already populated, leaving no genetic evidence of their existance 2600 years later. So if you can stop being amused long enough to respond to my post, I would like to hear your explanation of the process by which these DNA studies have concluded that the claim we are actually making (and not the one you seem to believe we're making) is false.

 

[Yerda]

Our claim is that it is entirely possible that a small family from Israel could have arrived in America, to a continent that was already populated, leaving no genetic evidence of their existance 2600 years later.

Out of curiosity, did they leave any other evidence?

 

[Katzpur]

Out of curiosity, did they leave any other evidence?

Well, let's put it this way. For 180 years, people have been claiming that things mentioned in the Book of Mormon did not exist in the Americas prior to the Spanish Conquest. Over time, and particularly within the last 15 or 20 years, evidence that many of these things did exist has turned up. So far, though, no big sign that says, "Welcome to Zarahemla."

Most of the "evidence" for the Book of Mormon's Hebraic origins is linguistic in nature. I'm not going to get into a big debate over any of this, though. In the past, whenever I or any other Mormon has presented evidence (sometimes in considerable detail), people will turn around five posts later and say, "There is NO evidence for the Book of Mormon." It's a losing battle, and it's not because it's an open and shut case on either side. I've just been down that road so many times I'm sick of it. I wanted to respons to msizer's OP because (1) the initial premise is flawed, and (2) it's easy enough to throw out a general negative statement without explaining it in any more detail that he did.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I have to be honest, the idea of the Native Americans being part of Israel sounds a lot like the idea of Euro-Israelism and Afro-Israelism to me. People claiming there are lost tribes in Europe and Africa. I am even skeptical about some European Jews truly being semetic, there are a few of us, but we're few and far between. Even the only majority of Jews with any truly semetic Hebrew stock are Arabic Jews like Yemenites, etc.

 

[DarkSun]

 

[Jose Fly]

So why then was the introduction to the BoM changed from stating that the Lamanites are "the principal ancestors of the American Indians" to stating that they are "among the ancestors of the American Indians"?

 

[MSizer]

I have to ask, with your approach to such a question, do you really expect a response?

Absolutely. I don't think it would make an alleged god too proud for one of his latter day saints to turn a smug shoulder on a chance to explain "the truth" as it were.

 

[linwood]

This is going to sound weird to you, but even if the BoM was written by a liar, if it leads one person to true spirituality, it's still worth something.

The only way a lie can lead anyone to "true spirituality" is through the rejection of it.

 

[linwood]

I'll tell you what's really amusing. It's that people insist on arguing against a claim the Latter-day Saints aren't even making. Phrase the argument correctly and of course your're going to win. Just so that we're on the same page, we do NOT claim that "Native Americans are of Israelite origin." Our claim is that it is entirely possible that a small family from Israel could have arrived in America, to a continent that was already populated, leaving no genetic evidence of their existance 2600 years later. So if you can stop being amused long enough to respond to my post, I would like to hear your explanation of the process by which these DNA studies have concluded that the claim we are actually making (and not the one you seem to believe we're making) is false.

In all honesty Kat this is the LDS claim NOW since they`ve discovered genetics.

It wasn`t always and it is very recent .

Would you like me to quote the introduction from my 20 year old copy of the BOM here?

The book claims directly that ..

The Lamanites are "are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."

When did this belief change and why?

 

[Mr Cheese]

In all honesty Kat this is the LDS claim NOW since they`ve discovered genetics.

It wasn`t always and it is very recent .

Would you like me to quote the introduction from my 20 year old copy of the BOM here?

The Book claims directly that ..

The Lamanites are "are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."

When did this belief change?

:help: you mean mormons are one of the many religions that have claimed one thing
only to about face and claim another?

well I never

I think Mormonism gets a lot of flack, because its claims are rather incredible...