Moses did not write the Torah: The Ultimate Evidence

[Many Sages One Truth]

Refute me if you can. Now Moses, supposing he wrote the Torah, why would he write something such as the following?

"Now the man Moses was exceedingly meek"

Anyone that wrote that about themselves would not be exceedingly meek, they'd be exceedingly arrogant.

 

[outhouse]

actually you can find contradicting biblical passages on how moses was said to be.


Moses has no historicity what so ever


there is even a passage where moses describes his own death.


anyway we know the first five books were written by many different groupd of people over hundreds of years and was edited possibly by ezra.

4 authors or groups of unknown authors and a redactor are typically ascribed by most scholars today as writing the first five books of the bible.


if you look at how the different books and authors were compiled into this peice of work, it looks like a heavily fragmented hard drive in the way it was all edited together.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Refute me if you can. Now Moses, supposing he wrote the Torah, why would he write something such as the following?

"Now the man Moses was exceedingly meek"

Anyone that wrote that about themselves would not be exceedingly meek, they'd be exceedingly arrogant.

If you figure Moses just made everything up, you'd be right. You could probably let it be more general than that... i.e. Why would a guy write about himself in the third person so much?

However...

If you're willing to figure that Moses just held the pen to write down God's words, then it's perfectly reasonable that someone who was exceedingly meek would write down that it was so.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Refute me if you can. Now Moses, supposing he wrote the Torah, why would he write something such as the following?

"Now the man Moses was exceedingly meek"

Anyone that wrote that about themselves would not be exceedingly meek, they'd be exceedingly arrogant.

Come to think of it, for the point you're trying to make, you're going about it very poorly.

If you're basically willing to suggest that it made sense for him to write in the third person UP UNTIL THAT PARTICULAR LINE.... what makes you think he wouldn't have written such a thing about himself? I mean, supposing he was making it all up and not simply taking down God's dictation, it would be wrong, but if he were looking to make himself look more virtuous, it would certainly make sense for him to toss something like that in there. You could argue that the line was wrong and that Moses was arrogant, despite his claim to the contrary, but it wouldn't at all go to show that he didn't write it.

 

[Many Sages One Truth]

I didn't say it was made up, I'm sure it was written off of a legitimate oral tradition they passed down. I'm just saying why suppose that Moses wrote it?

 

[outhouse]

. I'm just saying why suppose that Moses wrote it?

because that is the charactor that grew out of the oral tradition after heavy egyptian influences

 

[Many Sages One Truth]

Yes I'm sure that Moses probably wasn't an actual historical character, but I could be wrong. There could have been a Moses that was drastically different then what the Torah describes, or there could be some truth in the myth. Like there might have been a Moses who was a brilliant warlord and tactician.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I didn't say it was made up, I'm sure it was written off of a legitimate oral tradition they passed down. I'm just saying why suppose that Moses wrote it?

If you're looking for a secular, extra-biblical explanation, I'm not sure there is one.

Though seeing as this is in the "scriptural debates" section, if you want a scriptural answer, there are several instances where the text makes us understand that Moses wrote it, including but not limited to Deut 31:24 "So it was when Moses finished writing the words of this Torah onto a book, until their conclusion:"

 

[Many Sages One Truth]

Do you think Moses recorded his own death then? I assumed Scripture Debates included debating their origins.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Do you think Moses recorded his own death then?

I have heard two different answers, one of which suggests Moses did indeed write every word of the Torah, and the other suggests Moses wrote all of it but the last few sentences.

The first is that yes, Moses recorded his own death. It was told to him before it happened. It's the sort of thing that comes along with being a prophet.

The second suggests that Joshua took over and wrote the last few lines.

 

[Many Sages One Truth]

Poisonshady is this what you believe? That Moses did write the Torah? I've heard several Jewish scholars say he didn't write it, but that it was written off tradition.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Poisonshady is this what you believe? That Moses did write the Torah? I've heard several Jewish scholars say he didn't write it, but that it was written off tradition.

I don't have a reason to believe he didn't write it.

The "ultimate evidence" you provided in your OP didn't impress me all that much.

 

[Levite]

Frankly, I don't really care whether there was a single historical Moses, or Moses is a mythopoeic amalgam of many prophets lost in the mists of our prehistory. That's not the point of Torah.

The point of Torah is teaching the Jewish People the direction in which God wishes us to lead our lives, to give us a foundation for halachah (Jewish Law), and helping us do what is right and make meaning in our lives.

And in the end, if we are to have faith, it is to be in God, not in Moses.

 

[McBell]

Refute me if you can. Now Moses, supposing he wrote the Torah, why would he write something such as the following?

"Now the man Moses was exceedingly meek"

Anyone that wrote that about themselves would not be exceedingly meek, they'd be exceedingly arrogant.

Um...
Is that your "Ultimate Evidence"?

Hopefully you are merely gearing up to present it...

 

[Yanni]

Refute me if you can. Now Moses, supposing he wrote the Torah, why would he write something such as the following?

"Now the man Moses was exceedingly meek"

Anyone that wrote that about themselves would not be exceedingly meek, they'd be exceedingly arrogant.

Because Jewish tradition teaches that Moses only wrote down the Torah, which was dictated to him by God, word for word. Moses was not the author of the Torah, God was.

 

[outhouse]

Because Jewish tradition teaches that Moses only wrote down the Torah, which was dictated to him by God, word for word. Moses was not the author of the Torah, God was.

god never penned a word


Could you prove to anyone that god is not illiterate???

 

[Yanni]

god never penned a word


Could you prove to anyone that god is not illiterate???

And what are you basing this "God never penned a word" claim, huh? You're making an absolute statement without any backup.

 

[outhouse]

And what are you basing this "God never penned a word" claim, huh? You're making an absolute statement without any backup.

no deity has ever penned a word.

go out and bring back a shred of evidence any god has ever put pen to paper

 

[Poisonshady313]

no deity has ever penned a word.

go out and bring back a shred of evidence any god has ever put pen to paper

You're asking him to support a claim he never made. He said Moses wrote it down, taking dictation from God.

 

[outhouse]

You're asking him to support a claim he never made. He said Moses wrote it down, taking dictation from God.

then what is this statement here?? he makes it pretty clear

And what are you basing this "God never penned a word" claim, huh? You're making an absolute statement without any backup.