-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Muhammads life at Mecca was model of a peaceful person
- Thread starter paarsurrey
- Start date
- Status
gnostic
The Lost One
paarsurrey said:
Man, paarsurrey,
you're either terribly dishonest (because you are so evasive) or terribly ignorant (because you don't understand words, like "history" or "accurate"). And I don which you are, but I'm beginning to suspect.You are being evasive, because you keep moving the bl@@dy goalpost on me.
Every time I have tried to pin you down so that we can stay on the current topic, but you're feeling cornered, so you move the goalpost. But when I do move to that new goalpost, you move the damn goalpost back again.
I do feel like I am playing shell-game with a con-man.
First, you say that what happened to Muhammad, as it say in the Qur'an to be be "accurate", which would imply it to be "historical", hence "history".
But when I have made several points to refute the Qur'an so-called "history", you wrote this:
paarsurrey said:
How is more accurate?
Accurate in what ways?
If events about Muhammad is "accurate", then aren't you saying that the Qur'an is a history book?
But then you move this bl@@dy goalpost of the Qur'an being-not-historical to being-historical, when you wrote this last reply:
paarsurrey said:
How can any "event" be "accurate", and not be "history"?
If the "event" isn't "historical", then it must be "mythological" or "fictional"...if that's the case, then how could the Qur'an possibly be in any way be "accurate"?
If you are not being "dishonest" or "evasive", then you are ignorant to what "history" or "accurate" mean.
Last edited:
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Quran is Revelation from G-d and the events mentioned in it have no doubts in them:
The Holy Quran : Chapter 2: Al-Baqarah
[2:3]This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
A historian may on his own discretion take an event as an event of history then the historian shall have to prove that his sources are more accurate than Quran. There simply exist none about Muhammad.
“The upshot is that the Qur’an is the best source we have for the life of Muhammad–it may be chronologically close to his lifetime and it’s a text that theoretically wouldn’t have existed had he not revealed it to his followers–but it is far from being comprehensive.”
Islamic History, Part 6: The problem with early sources-Derek Davison
Islamic History, Part 6: The problem with early sources | and that's the way it was
Regards
gnostic
The Lost One
paarsurrey said:
That's your faith that you believe the Qur'an come from god. It has nothing to do about the Qur'an being "accurate".
Accurate is something that you can confirm or verify, and you can't confirm or verify anything about these revelations divinely revealed. It is just your personal belief and your circular reasoning, nothing more.
Any imbecile can say "this is a perfect book" or "that is a perfect book", and any naive person or simpleton will believe it.
And you have just quoted a very subjective verse, as if it contain some profound truth. Is that really the best you have?
It's a joke that I am even debating this with you. You are wasting my time with claims that you can't verify.
So Revelation from god is not history. So are you saying that nothing in the Qur'an happened the way it was written?
If so, then I will agree with you 100%, the Qur'an is a complete fiction. Are you happy, now?
Last edited:
gnostic
The Lost One
paarsurrey said:
You are playing with words, paarsurrey.
You say nothing is more accurate than the Qur'an, and yet you are saying that the Qur'an is not history book. If that's true, then nothing in the Qur'an is real, nothing about the Qur'an is historical. But that would also mean that the Qur'an isn't accurate.
You are contradicting yourself.
- Either the Qur'an is accurate or it isn't.
- Either the revelation of the Qur'an is "historical" or it is "mythological" (or "fictional").
I really don't think you should ask question or debate over issue, if you can't keep your story straight. Because, you are making Islam and the Qur'an look "stupid" or "deceitful".
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
You are simply wrong. Truth is not a function of history. Truth exists even if no historian is there to record the events.
Quran provides truth with 100% accuracy.
Regards
Arabic males are not as masculine or as virile as Western males. They cannot satisfy their women sexually so they circumcise and mutilate them so they won't have to deal with unhappy and unsatisfied women. We in the West know that can be tough. So Islam, the Koran and female mutilation is all about the lack of virility in the Muslim culture. Oh it's true.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Muhammad’s life at Mecca was model of a peaceful person
THE FAITHFUL PERSECUTED
A most cruel campaign began. Women were butchered shamelessly. Men were slaughtered. The slaves who had declared their faith in the Prophet (sa) were dragged over burning sands and stones. Their skins became hardened like those of animals. A long time after, when Islam had become established far and near, one of these early converts named Khabbab bin Al-Arat (ra) had his body exposed. His friends saw his skin hardened like an animal's and asked him why it was so. Khabbab (ra) laughed and said it was nothing; only a memory of those early days when slaves converted to Islam were dragged through the streets of Mecca over hard and hot sands and stones
(Musnad, Vol. 5, p. 110).
The slaves who believed came from all communities.
Bilal (ra) was a negro, Suhaib (ra) a Greek. They belonged to different faiths. Jabr (ra) and Suhaib (ra) were Christians, Bilal (ra) and ‘Ammar (ra), idol-worshippers. Bilal (ra) was made to lie on hot sand, loaded with stones, and boys were made to dance on his chest, and his master, Umayya bin Khalf, tortured him thus and then asked him to renounce Allah and the Prophet (sa) and sing the praises of the Meccan gods, Lat and ‘Uzza. Bilal (ra) only said, Ahad,
Ahad … (God is One).
Exasperated, Umayya handed Bilal (ra) over to street boys, asking them to put a cord round his neck and drag him through the town over sharp stones. Bilal's (ra) body bled, but he went on muttering, Ahad, Ahad…
Later, when Muslims settled in Medina and were able to live and worship in comparative peace, the Holy Prophetsa appointed Bilal (ra) a Mu’adhdhin, the official who calls the worshippers to prayers. Being an African, Bilalra missed the (h), in the Arabic Ashhadu (I bear witness). Medinite believers laughed at his defective pronunciation, but the Prophet (sa) rebuked them and told them how dear Bilal (ra) was to God for the stout faith he showed under Meccan tortures. Abu Bakr (ra) paid ransom for Bilal (ra) and many other slaves and secured their release. Among them was Suhaib (ra), a prosperous merchant, whom the Quraish continued to belabor even after his release.
When the Holy Prophet (sa) left Mecca to settle down in Medina, Suhaib (ra) wanted to go with him. But the Meccans stopped him. He could not take away from Mecca, they said, the wealth he had earned in Mecca. Suhaib (ra) offered to surrender all his property and earnings and asked whether they would then let him go. The Meccans accepted the arrangement.
Suhaib (ra) reached Medina empty-handed and saw the Prophet (sa), who heard him and congratulated him, saying, "This was the best bargain of your life."
Page 13-14
Life of Muhammad (sa)
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Life-of-Muhammad.pdf
One could see that the Meccan did not allow the right of freedom of religion, right of freedom of speech, right of free thinking, all human right were denied by them to Muslims.
Regards
THE FAITHFUL PERSECUTED
A most cruel campaign began. Women were butchered shamelessly. Men were slaughtered. The slaves who had declared their faith in the Prophet (sa) were dragged over burning sands and stones. Their skins became hardened like those of animals. A long time after, when Islam had become established far and near, one of these early converts named Khabbab bin Al-Arat (ra) had his body exposed. His friends saw his skin hardened like an animal's and asked him why it was so. Khabbab (ra) laughed and said it was nothing; only a memory of those early days when slaves converted to Islam were dragged through the streets of Mecca over hard and hot sands and stones
(Musnad, Vol. 5, p. 110).
The slaves who believed came from all communities.
Bilal (ra) was a negro, Suhaib (ra) a Greek. They belonged to different faiths. Jabr (ra) and Suhaib (ra) were Christians, Bilal (ra) and ‘Ammar (ra), idol-worshippers. Bilal (ra) was made to lie on hot sand, loaded with stones, and boys were made to dance on his chest, and his master, Umayya bin Khalf, tortured him thus and then asked him to renounce Allah and the Prophet (sa) and sing the praises of the Meccan gods, Lat and ‘Uzza. Bilal (ra) only said, Ahad,
Ahad … (God is One).
Exasperated, Umayya handed Bilal (ra) over to street boys, asking them to put a cord round his neck and drag him through the town over sharp stones. Bilal's (ra) body bled, but he went on muttering, Ahad, Ahad…
Later, when Muslims settled in Medina and were able to live and worship in comparative peace, the Holy Prophetsa appointed Bilal (ra) a Mu’adhdhin, the official who calls the worshippers to prayers. Being an African, Bilalra missed the (h), in the Arabic Ashhadu (I bear witness). Medinite believers laughed at his defective pronunciation, but the Prophet (sa) rebuked them and told them how dear Bilal (ra) was to God for the stout faith he showed under Meccan tortures. Abu Bakr (ra) paid ransom for Bilal (ra) and many other slaves and secured their release. Among them was Suhaib (ra), a prosperous merchant, whom the Quraish continued to belabor even after his release.
When the Holy Prophet (sa) left Mecca to settle down in Medina, Suhaib (ra) wanted to go with him. But the Meccans stopped him. He could not take away from Mecca, they said, the wealth he had earned in Mecca. Suhaib (ra) offered to surrender all his property and earnings and asked whether they would then let him go. The Meccans accepted the arrangement.
Suhaib (ra) reached Medina empty-handed and saw the Prophet (sa), who heard him and congratulated him, saying, "This was the best bargain of your life."
Page 13-14
Life of Muhammad (sa)
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Life-of-Muhammad.pdf
One could see that the Meccan did not allow the right of freedom of religion, right of freedom of speech, right of free thinking, all human right were denied by them to Muslims.
Regards
The Koran speaks of Moses and Jesus as if they actually existed. Clearly they did not and both are simply allegories for the sun in the solar myths centered around them and the only writings that ever mention either of them. So that fact alone'proves the Koran is as phony as a three-dollar bill. It doesn't do any good to argue with Muslims about this. Muslims have never been introduced to the possibility of asking questions.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
It is not correct.
Quran answers questions a lot of them exist in Quran, I give just one with reference just as an example:
The Holy Quran : Chapter 17: Bani Isra'il
[17:86]And they ask thee concerning the soul. Say, ‘The soul is by the command of my Lord; and of the knowledge thereof you have been given but a little.’
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
Regards
I'm talking about much broader questions such as, Is there really a God? Are the claims of Islam true? Or did Islam evolve from ancient Arabic moon worshiping cults as the evidence suggests? Did Muhammad really exist? Why can't any of the events described in the Koran be verified using sources independent of the Koran? You haven't asked these questions and until you do you won't know the answers.
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
The moonhas a clear impactonIslam
Agree with you
Because prayer is dependent on the Moon
Also, fasting and Hajj based on the Moon's movement
Lunarmonthsvariable
Islam relies
And also some Muslims in the Lunar Crescent
There are studiessaying thatthe LunarCrescentwasthe idolof the Godin theArabicPeninsula
And this logo was lifted to mosques
He was formerly of the gods mentioned above
Yep, and the Jewish and Christian religions evolved from sun worshiping cults. So the Muslims and Christians have hated each other for so long they've forgotten what the original disagreement was about, whether the sun or the moon was the real god. Neither Christians or Muslims have a clue where their religions came from. Only we critics know. And the religious wonder why we laugh at them.
paarsurrey, You have witnessed the debunking of your religion right here. You can reject the truth or reject your religion. It's all up to you now. Good luck.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
You are wrong. Quran gives arguments.
The Holy Quran : Chapter 7: Al-A`raf
[7:173]And when thy Lord brings forth from Adam’s children — out of their loins — their offspring and makes them witnesses against their own selvesby saying: ‘Am I not your Lord?’ They say, ‘Yea, we do bear witness.’This He doeslest you should say on the Day of Resurrection, ‘We were surely unaware of this.’
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
Regards
gnostic
The Lost One
paarsurrey said:
Did I say truth is history?
No, I didn't.
Truth is subjective variable in history, and the least reliable if you can't verify a single source, with other independent sources.
For something to accurate with a narrative, then it could be considered history, if it is not, then it is fiction or mythological.
paarsurrey said:
No it isn't.
If something was 100% "accurate" then anyone can verify what were written to be true.
Can you any way prove that humans can understand the languages of birds or ants, as Solomon did in the Qur'an? Or that birds and ants can understand human speech?
You can't.
And if you can't, how can you possibl say that the Quran is accurate? This whole ants episode in the Qur'an is purely mythological or fantasy, with no basis in reality. Meaning that the Qur'an is based on superstition and the supernatural.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
- Status