Muslims: discussion about homosexuality

[Gharib]

es-selamu alaykum.
(i've sent links to all of you and hope you'd like to join)

a while back in a thread, .lava mentioned something that i've been thinking about ever since. i was saying to someone that a homosexual muslim does not exist, by being reminded about a hadith i read which i am still looking for and promised both .lava and peace that i would post it to them. if we look at the word 'muslim' it means 'one who has submited to Allah' but since homosexuality (it's acts) are against Allah's will then that means a homosexual muslim does not exist, just like a rapist muslim does not exist, again all this is based on he hadith in sahih bukhari which was saying that when a muslim sins, his faith is taken away and then braught back after he has finished his sin. the faith of a muslim was being described as a shirt, it comes offwhen sining and goes back on after it.

so on that, what if one is born homosexual? i posted something the other day, again related to homosexuality, about how muslims, like all humans, feel love. i, like all males, love females. but by being a muslim even though i may find a non-muslim female attractive, i choose not to love her and i choose to love a muslim female instead. as we all know, everyone is born with love, but we can choose whom to love, muslims (both male and female) are a living exmaple of it. so what if one is born homosexual and a big part of his lifes test is homosexuality,just like the rest of us are teste with heterosexuality? does it make sense what i'm saying?

the biggest excuse homosexuals have is, it is nattural, i was born this way (even though there is no concrete evidence), well heterosexual muslims are also born that way, to love the opposite sex, but for the love of Allah and his sake alone, we choose to not have a non-muslim as a partner.

can i hear you oppinions on this?
does what i say make sense?
is there any information anyone can add?
is there any scholar who has gone deep into explaining/understanding homosexuality from an islamic perspective?

 

[Gharib]

i sent links to the brothers and sister whom i've seen around lately so if i've missed someone please forgive me.

 

[Fatihah]

es-selamu alaykum.
(i've sent links to all of you and hope you'd like to join)

a while back in a thread, .lava mentioned something that i've been thinking about ever since. i was saying to someone that a homosexual muslim does not exist, by being reminded about a hadith i read which i am still looking for and promised both .lava and peace that i would post it to them. if we look at the word 'muslim' it means 'one who has submited to Allah' but since homosexuality (it's acts) are against Allah's will then that means a homosexual muslim does not exist, just like a rapist muslim does not exist, again all this is based on he hadith in sahih bukhari which was saying that when a muslim sins, his faith is taken away and then braught back after he has finished his sin. the faith of a muslim was being described as a shirt, it comes offwhen sining and goes back on after it.

so on that, what if one is born homosexual? i posted something the other day, again related to homosexuality, about how muslims, like all humans, feel love. i, like all males, love females. but by being a muslim even though i may find a non-muslim female attractive, i choose not to love her and i choose to love a muslim female instead. as we all know, everyone is born with love, but we can choose whom to love, muslims (both male and female) are a living exmaple of it. so what if one is born homosexual and a big part of his lifes test is homosexuality,just like the rest of us are teste with heterosexuality? does it make sense what i'm saying?

the biggest excuse homosexuals have is, it is nattural, i was born this way (even though there is no concrete evidence), well heterosexual muslims are also born that way, to love the opposite sex, but for the love of Allah and his sake alone, we choose to not have a non-muslim as a partner.

can i hear you oppinions on this?
does what i say make sense?
is there any information anyone can add?
is there any scholar who has gone deep into explaining/understanding homosexuality from an islamic perspective?

Response: As salaamu alaikum

It is difficult to answer your question with an answer that stems from reality, for your question of what if someone is born a homosexual contradicts the nature in which Allah(created) us. For no one is born a homosexual. Or perhaps, we should come to an agreeance on what being born a homosexual means, because depending on who you ask, you will get a different definition.

If by being born a homosexual, you mean that one is born sexually attracted to the same sex the second they exit the womb, then the answer of course is no.

Allah(swt) has created us to be naturally born with certain emotions, certain instincts, and certain reactions. For example, we all are capable of feeling hunger. Natural instinct will tell us to satisfy that hunger with something to eat. Now here is where it gets tricky. What do we eat? Which is healthy? Which is not? Which will taste good? Which will not? When I was young, my favorite food was pizza. Being that it was my favorite, I developed a natural crave to have it. That is a natural reaction. But I was not born with a natural crave for pizza, but it was rather developed after I tasted it. In other words, it became something I craved. Lust.

I was born with the natural capability to feel hunger, which is a reaction to not eating. My lust for pizza was something in which I developed after satisfying my natural hunger for something to eat. Thus my lust for something to eat is something I was naturally born with, but my lust for pizza is something I naturally developed on my own, not something I was born with. I didn't come out of the womb craving pizza.

The same is the case for sexuality. For we are not born homosexual or heterosexual. We are born children. Ignorant to what sexuality is. Yet Allah(swt) has created us with the ability to feel love, as well as lust through sexual attraction and and experiences. And just like my natural born feeling of hunger led me to develop a lust for pizza after tasting it, a person's natural born desire for affection can lead them to lust for the affection of the same sex or opposite after certain experiences with the both sexes.

And because Allah(swt) has created our nature to have natural reactions and created both man and woman with purpose, He has created man and woman's nature to be more inclined to follow the principles and teaching's of islam. In other words, if a child is not taught principles that go against islam, the child will natural grow to be a muslim, without being taught islam! Why? Because it is embedded in our nature to do so. Children are born pure. They know no evil. Their compassion to do right and be obedient is flawless. Thus they are born muslims, because a muslim is one who submits their will to Allah(swt). And what is the will if Allah? To love and do what is right, which is exactly what a child is and does, unless taught or influenced to do differently.

And Allah(swt) has made it so, so that man and woman can love each other sexually, where as the same sex can not, for the same sex was not meant to be together sexually. He has also made the nature of man and woman much more inclined to be sexually attracted to each other over the same sex. This is the decree of Allah(swt) and the nature in which He created humankind. Man for woman and vice versa. Not same sex relations. So those who practice same sex do so out of lust, not love, which is why it is haram.

So in conclusion, islam is a religion based on love, not lust. Joy comes in two forms. Giving and receiving. There's a joy you will fill if I gave you 100 dollars right now. But there's a better joy in giving 100 dollars as well. Each principle in islam is geared to make us as a people, the kind who likes to give, not receive. For that is what love is. Love stems from one's desire to give, while lust is one's desire to receive. Look at the pliiars of islam. Fasting is a time in which you deprive yourself of all your personal pleasures,(food, drink, sex) and instead focus on bettering others. Zakat is when you give to charity. Again, it's not about you, but others. Etc. And when you reach that mentality when your desire to give exceeds your desire to receive, then you'll be able to really understand the nature in which Allah(swt) created us and understand the difference between love and lust. So when it comes to homosexuality, your reasoning for not doing so is not because Allah(swt) says so, but because it is not based on love. And because your mentality is focused on doing what's right and what is best and showing love, then the chance of lust creeping in is practically impossible. Thus attraction to the same sex is impossible. And the reason why one should not marry a non-muslim is not because Allah(swt) says so, but because it's what's best.

P.S. I know the hadith you are referring to. I 'll present it for you if I can find it as well, insha'Allah. A muslim is not a muslim when they sin with the intent to disobey. Thus there is no such thing as a homosexual muslim, because homosexuality is clearly against islam and one who practices it is clearly disobeying Allah's will. So as long as their intent is to be a homosexual, then they arw not muslim. However, if they repent and are sincere, then they return to the submission of Allah(swt), thus making them muslim.

 

[Gharib]

Subhan Allah. i envy your knowledge brother. i am very jealous of you at the moment. your post does make a lot of sense. but i will ask you some questions though. they may be hard to answer but then they may be not. thats why i wanted everyone to participate, we all have heard/read different things to one another.

in sahih bukhari we find the following hadith:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said, "If anyone of you on having sexual relations with his wife said (and he must say it before starting) 'In the name of Allah. O Allah! Protect us from satan and also protect what you bestow upon us (i.e. the coming offspring) from satan, and if it is destined that they should have a child then, satan will never be able to harm that offspring." (Book #4, Hadith #143)

unfortunately i cannot find a commentary for this hadith.

what if one being born a homosexual is a result of the devils interference (if one is actually born a homosexual, i believe not)? in another hadith that i read once, it said that when a woman passes infront of you and you look at her (even though one is not soposed to), the devil comes inbetween the 2 of you and makes her look more attractive to you. this is from bukhari too.

the devil is our open enemy as staded in the quran:
O ye people! Eat of what is on earth, Lawful and good; and do not follow the footsteps of the evil one, for he is to you an avowed enemy.
(Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #168)

O ye who believe! Enter into Islam whole-heartedly; and follow not the footsteps of the evil one; for he is to you an avowed enemy.
(Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #208)

so could it be that homosexuality has something to do with the devil? the verses about the people of prophet Lot (as) do not indicate this, but like all bad things that one does, the satan is there for reinforcment to make sure one does do bad and dissobey Allah

option 2 is:
homosexuality is not natural at all. but homosexuality does have a lot to do with ones childhood as i have always claimed and then found out scientists were of the same oppinion too.

is it somewhat possible that the devil harms the child in his/her childhood?

or do you believe it has nothing to do with the devil? in that case how would you explain option 2 from an islamic perspective?

again thank you very much for your post brother. i really apreciate it. very good explanation

 

[Gharib]

Response: As salaamu alaikum
P.S. I know the hadith you are referring to. I 'll present it for you if I can find it as well, insha'Allah. A muslim is not a muslim when they sin with the intent to disobey. Thus there is no such thing as a homosexual muslim, because homosexuality is clearly against islam and one who practices it is clearly disobeying Allah's will. So as long as their intent is to be a homosexual, then they arw not muslim. However, if they repent and are sincere, then they return to the submission of Allah(swt), thus making them muslim.

alaykum selam.

hey you do know the hadith i'm talking about. please do post it to me if you find it. i was begining to think i had dreamed it considering the bad luck i've had in finding it, which i still haven't found.

 

[Fatihah]

Subhan Allah. i envy your knowledge brother. i am very jealous of you at the moment. your post does make a lot of sense. but i will ask you some questions though. they may be hard to answer but then they may be not. thats why i wanted everyone to participate, we all have heard/read different things to one another.

in sahih bukhari we find the following hadith:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said, "If anyone of you on having sexual relations with his wife said (and he must say it before starting) 'In the name of Allah. O Allah! Protect us from satan and also protect what you bestow upon us (i.e. the coming offspring) from satan, and if it is destined that they should have a child then, satan will never be able to harm that offspring." (Book #4, Hadith #143)

unfortunately i cannot find a commentary for this hadith.

what if one being born a homosexual is a result of the devils interference (if one is actually born a homosexual, i believe not)? in another hadith that i read once, it said that when a woman passes infront of you and you look at her (even though one is not soposed to), the devil comes inbetween the 2 of you and makes her look more attractive to you. this is from bukhari too.

the devil is our open enemy as staded in the quran:
O ye people! Eat of what is on earth, Lawful and good; and do not follow the footsteps of the evil one, for he is to you an avowed enemy.
(Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #168)

O ye who believe! Enter into Islam whole-heartedly; and follow not the footsteps of the evil one; for he is to you an avowed enemy.
(Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #208)

so could it be that homosexuality has something to do with the devil? the verses about the people of prophet Lot (as) do not indicate this, but like all bad things that one does, the satan is there for reinforcment to make sure one does do bad and dissobey Allah

option 2 is:
homosexuality is not natural at all. but homosexuality does have a lot to do with ones childhood as i have always claimed and then found out scientists were of the same oppinion too.

is it somewhat possible that the devil harms the child in his/her childhood?

or do you believe it has nothing to do with the devil? in that case how would you explain option 2 from an islamic perspective?

again thank you very much for your post brother. i really apreciate it. very good explanation

Response: Shaitan plays a role in all evil, or any act that is immoral and against islam. One can not say exactly what Shaitan does, for if we knew exactly how Shaitan moves and his plans are, there would be know need to seek refuge in Allah(swt) from shaitan. Homosexuality stems from a combination of both shaitan and one's influence due to their upbringing. But this is no excuse to disobey Allah or behave immoral. At the end of the day, it is the person who actually chooses to make the decision to be intimate with the same sex, not Shaitan or the environment.

Every child is born a muslim, thus one can not be born a homosexual, for homosexuality is against islam.

 

[Fatihah]

alaykum selam.

hey you do know the hadith i'm talking about. please do post it to me if you find it. i was begining to think i had dreamed it considering the bad luck i've had in finding it, which i still haven't found.

Response: Insha'Allah, I will help you find it brother. I believe I have it marked down somewhere.

 

[Shia Islam]

es-selamu alaykum.

Even if we suppose that there are some people who are born as homosexuals, they represent a very tiny percentage.

According to what I remember, I have came across studies that shows different causes for a person to be homosexual. The early life of a person can make him homosexual. Many of the homosexuals have mentioned that they were victims of rape in their early life for example, and this was the reason for them to be homosexuals.

So the unhealthy social life is the main cause of homosexuality.

So based on the supposition that there is very tiny percentage of people who are born as homosexuals, they represent abnormality, and hence they need to respect the normal people way of life, and the society's law. They should treat themselves in order to fit into the society.

Although homosexuals are among the great sinners , I'll choose to say that "a homosexual Muslim do exists"

As although "homosexuality (it's acts) are against Allah's", they are not the only ones whose acts are against Allah's commands, we have many kinds of bad Muslims; we have the corrupt ones, the transgressors, and even the drug addicts…They are bloody bad Muslims

 

[Sahar]

If we're going to exclude every Muslim who commits sins, then who will be left? All of us are sinners yet we are still Muslims. Yes, there are Muslims who commit adultery, sodomy, theft....etc and always they have the chance to repent.
So yes there are homosexual Muslims who many of them have very hard time because of what they feel and especially when they follow their feelings and act upon them.

so what if one is born homosexual and a big part of his lifes test is homosexuality,just like the rest of us are teste with heterosexuality? does it make sense what i'm saying?

I'd say environment plays an important role as well. Multiple factors could lead to this but I agree with you, it's a test for them, this is the point. See what this respectable person Ayub says (who has struggled against his homosexuality):
"After years of struggling, the battle has become easier. I have come to see same-sex attractions not as a curse, but as an opportunity. Some people work for years to figure out how they can serve Allah. For me this question was answered a long time ago: control same-sex attractions and share what you have learned.
I have come to think of my life this way: whatever else happens, if I can stay free of this craziness and perhaps help others become free, I will have found success in the central jihad of my life.
Others may not agree with the approach I have taken, and that's fine. But for those who are struggling, I offer these words from my own experience: You don't have to settle for a life that is contrary to what Allah has prescribed for us. You don't have to accept a definition of yourself that is compromised or any less than what He has ordained for you as a Muslim."

 

[Gharib]

Response: Shaitan plays a role in all evil, or any act that is immoral and against islam. One can not say exactly what Shaitan does, for if we knew exactly how Shaitan moves and his plans are, there would be know need to seek refuge in Allah(swt) from shaitan.

yes you are correct.

Homosexuality stems from a combination of both shaitan and one's influence due to their upbringing. But this is no excuse to disobey Allah or behave immoral. At the end of the day, it is the person who actually chooses to make the decision to be intimate with the same sex, not Shaitan or the environment.

i agree that it is not an exuse to dissobey Allah, as i mentioned in my first post, us heterosexuals are in the same position, that doesn't give homosexuals more right to love the opposite sex, because they are somehow diferent or because it is 'natural'

Every child is born a muslim, thus one can not be born a homosexual, for homosexuality is against islam.

i forgot aobut his hadith, but now that you mentione it, i don't think being born attracted to the opposite sex is against islam though. we're back at the begining i'm afraid.

because no one is born with sins (unlike the christian belief) therefore, being born homosexual is not a sin and is not against islam but indulging in homosexual activity is the sin, not the homosexual himself just like being bron heterosexual isn't a sin, but commiting adultery is a sin.
the reason why being born homosexual is not against islam (in my view) is because, just like heterosexuals, homosexuals must also refrain from what is wrong, in this case to not fall in love with someone of the same sex. same with heterosexuals, we love the opposite sex, Allah has made that sex attractive to us, but just like homosexuals, we too have boundaries which we must not cross. some of those boundaries are to not commit adultery, to not marry a non-muslim etc. in the quran Allah does condemn homosexuality, but in the quran Allah also condemns adultery. he says "do not go near it".

i what i've said doesn't make sense, then please say so and i will try to say this in a different way.

 

[Gharib]

Response: Insha'Allah, I will help you find it brother. I believe I have it marked down somewhere.

jazak Allah khairan.

 

[Gharib]

es-selamu alaykum.

alaykum selam we rahmatullah.

Even if we suppose that there are some people who are born as homosexuals, they represent a very tiny percentage.

yes that is true.

According to what I remember, I have came across studies that shows different causes for a person to be homosexual. The early life of a person can make him homosexual. Many of the homosexuals have mentioned that they were victims of rape in their early life for example, and this was the reason for them to be homosexuals.
So the unhealthy social life is the main cause of homosexuality.

thank you for mentioning this, i didn't know.
but although rape is a part of it, it isn't the only reason why some kids turn out homosexual. their social life and their childhood sorrounding does play a big role in their life. another reason for homsexuality is that there is not barrier between boys and girls. by barrier i mean some parents let thie son play with his older sister, which is fine, but they do not tell him that they are different. of course a small child doesn't understand anything about sexual orientation, therefore the parents must not let a boy to play with dolls and other girly toys.

in my childhood, most of the kids were boys, there was only one girl in our neighbourhood. so like all children she too wanted to play. so she would come with us. by being around us, that girl never played with girly toys, instead she would play with what we would play, which was cars, trucks, chasing dogs and cats etc etc. in some days when she was alone at her front yard, she used to play with boys toys, even though she was all by herself. she, at this point, flet like a boy therefore she acted like one.

things like this do happen almost everywhere, and mostly it is the parents who are at fault.

So based on the supposition that there is very tiny percentage of people who are born as homosexuals, they represent abnormality, and hence they need to respect the normal people way of life, and the society's law. They should treat themselves in order to fit into the society.

but what if there is nothing wrong in their genes and that is their personal jihad from Allah? just like mine and your personal jihad is to not commit adultery. we don't say for heterosexual muslims who commit adultery they represent abnormality.

Although homosexuals are among the great sinners , I'll choose to say that "a homosexual Muslim do exists"

yes in the sense that they fell attracted to the same sex but do not engage in homosexual acts. is that what you mean by your statement?

As although "homosexuality (it's acts) are against Allah's", they are not the only ones whose acts are against Allah's commands, we have many kinds of bad Muslims; we have the corrupt ones, the transgressors, and even the drug addicts…They are bloody bad Muslims

yes understandable, but what the hadith was saying is that at the time when we dissobey Allah (can't remember if it said knowingly or unknowingly) we go outside the definition of the word 'muslim', meaning we are a non-muslim at the time when we sin. but this is not the same as shirk which takes us out of islam completely. we are still a muslim, but we have just sinned against ourself.

i think scholars agree that as long as one doesn't commit any of the major sins that lead ou of islam, one is still a muslim. so we could have someone drinking alcohol all his life but still declare the shahada and one day he might see the right way and leave his alcohol and become a devoted muslim. all the while he was still a muslim.

 

[Gharib]

If we're going to exclude every Muslim who commits sins, then who will be left? All of us are sinners yet we are still Muslims. Yes, there are Muslims who commit adultery, sodomy, theft....etc and always they have the chance to repent.
So yes there are homosexual Muslims who many of them have very hard time because of what they feel and especially when they follow their feelings and act upon them.

yes the point for that statement is that a homosexual who commits a homosexual act is not a muslim at that particlar time, but muslims who have feelings for the same sex do exist, just like everyone else is not a muslim when we sin, but unlike the major sins which take us out of islam completely, we are still muslims. the prophet said that our faith is like a shirt. so when we commit a sin our faith (shirt) is taken away by an angel and the brought back after we stop sinning. and eventually just like a shirt that we take off and put it back on, our faith gets worn out, so we must ask Allah to renew our iman and strengthen it.

I'd say environment plays an important role as well. Multiple factors could lead to this but I agree with you, it's a test for them, this is the point.

yes undoubtedly the environment plays the biggest role. a child may be heterosexual at birth like most of us, but if he is taught that he must love the same sex then he might eventually obey that.

See what this respectable person Ayub says (who has struggled against his homosexuality):
"After years of struggling, the battle has become easier. I have come to see same-sex attractions not as a curse, but as an opportunity. Some people work for years to figure out how they can serve Allah. For me this question was answered a long time ago: control same-sex attractions and share what you have learned.
I have come to think of my life this way: whatever else happens, if I can stay free of this craziness and perhaps help others become free, I will have found success in the central jihad of my life.

that is exactly what i am getting at. thank you for posting this sister.
now of course there may be 2 outcomes,
1)he was never born homosexual but became one based on his childhood environment
2) he was born a homosexual.

nontheles, the strugle is the same for both outcomes, to obey Allah and not indulge in homosexual activity, which for them that is the test set by Allah.

Others may not agree with the approach I have taken, and that's fine. But for those who are struggling, I offer these words from my own experience: You don't have to settle for a life that is contrary to what Allah has prescribed for us. You don't have to accept a definition of yourself that is compromised or any less than what He has ordained for you as a Muslim."

what you've posted is perfectly fine. i am actually glad i oppened this thread, everyone of us has had different experiences and has different knowledge to one another so this thread is going in the right direction, as i hoped. elhamdulilah.

 

[jtartar]

es-selamu alaykum.
(i've sent links to all of you and hope you'd like to join)

a while back in a thread, .lava mentioned something that i've been thinking about ever since. i was saying to someone that a homosexual muslim does not exist, by being reminded about a hadith i read which i am still looking for and promised both .lava and peace that i would post it to them. if we look at the word 'muslim' it means 'one who has submited to Allah' but since homosexuality (it's acts) are against Allah's will then that means a homosexual muslim does not exist, just like a rapist muslim does not exist, again all this is based on he hadith in sahih bukhari which was saying that when a muslim sins, his faith is taken away and then braught back after he has finished his sin. the faith of a muslim was being described as a shirt, it comes offwhen sining and goes back on after it.

so on that, what if one is born homosexual? i posted something the other day, again related to homosexuality, about how muslims, like all humans, feel love. i, like all males, love females. but by being a muslim even though i may find a non-muslim female attractive, i choose not to love her and i choose to love a muslim female instead. as we all know, everyone is born with love, but we can choose whom to love, muslims (both male and female) are a living exmaple of it. so what if one is born homosexual and a big part of his lifes test is homosexuality,just like the rest of us are teste with heterosexuality? does it make sense what i'm saying?

the biggest excuse homosexuals have is, it is nattural, i was born this way (even though there is no concrete evidence), well heterosexual muslims are also born that way, to love the opposite sex, but for the love of Allah and his sake alone, we choose to not have a non-muslim as a partner.

can i hear you oppinions on this?
does what i say make sense?
is there any information anyone can add?
is there any scholar who has gone deep into explaining/understanding homosexuality from an islamic perspective?

eselam,
Muslims are no different than Christians in that there is no one who is born homosexual. People who say they were born homosexual are wrong, because they have an ulterior reason for saying that. They are either practicing homosexuals, or are doctors who try to placate them. After all, would a homosexual keep going to a doctor who tells him he is not a born homosexual, when the person believes he is??
A very good reason for saying that no person is born homosexual is because God condemns homosexuality, Lev 20:13, 18:22. Even Muslims believe the Hebrew Scriptures.
The Christian Greek Scriptures also say the same things, 1Cor 6:9,10, 1Tim 1:10, Rom 1:26-32. Would a loving God condemn a person to everlasting death if a person had no control over his sexual preference???
People are caused to become homosexual because of parents or friends. Many homosexuals, after learning God's commands, have changed, so we know it can be done, if the person really wants to.

 

[Peace]

Response: As salaamu alaikum

It is difficult to answer your question with an answer that stems from reality, for your question of what if someone is born a homosexual contradicts the nature in which Allah(created) us. For no one is born a homosexual. Or perhaps, we should come to an agreeance on what being born a homosexual means, because depending on who you ask, you will get a different definition.

If by being born a homosexual, you mean that one is born sexually attracted to the same sex the second they exit the womb, then the answer of course is no.

Allah(swt) has created us to be naturally born with certain emotions, certain instincts, and certain reactions. For example, we all are capable of feeling hunger. Natural instinct will tell us to satisfy that hunger with something to eat. Now here is where it gets tricky. What do we eat? Which is healthy? Which is not? Which will taste good? Which will not? When I was young, my favorite food was pizza. Being that it was my favorite, I developed a natural crave to have it. That is a natural reaction. But I was not born with a natural crave for pizza, but it was rather developed after I tasted it. In other words, it became something I craved. Lust.

I was born with the natural capability to feel hunger, which is a reaction to not eating. My lust for pizza was something in which I developed after satisfying my natural hunger for something to eat. Thus my lust for something to eat is something I was naturally born with, but my lust for pizza is something I naturally developed on my own, not something I was born with. I didn't come out of the womb craving pizza.

The same is the case for sexuality. For we are not born homosexual or heterosexual. We are born children. Ignorant to what sexuality is. Yet Allah(swt) has created us with the ability to feel love, as well as lust through sexual attraction and and experiences. And just like my natural born feeling of hunger led me to develop a lust for pizza after tasting it, a person's natural born desire for affection can lead them to lust for the affection of the same sex or opposite after certain experiences with the both sexes.

And because Allah(swt) has created our nature to have natural reactions and created both man and woman with purpose, He has created man and woman's nature to be more inclined to follow the principles and teaching's of islam. In other words, if a child is not taught principles that go against islam, the child will natural grow to be a muslim, without being taught islam! Why? Because it is embedded in our nature to do so. Children are born pure. They know no evil. Their compassion to do right and be obedient is flawless. Thus they are born muslims, because a muslim is one who submits their will to Allah(swt). And what is the will if Allah? To love and do what is right, which is exactly what a child is and does, unless taught or influenced to do differently.

And Allah(swt) has made it so, so that man and woman can love each other sexually, where as the same sex can not, for the same sex was not meant to be together sexually. He has also made the nature of man and woman much more inclined to be sexually attracted to each other over the same sex. This is the decree of Allah(swt) and the nature in which He created humankind. Man for woman and vice versa. Not same sex relations. So those who practice same sex do so out of lust, not love, which is why it is haram.

So in conclusion, islam is a religion based on love, not lust. Joy comes in two forms. Giving and receiving. There's a joy you will fill if I gave you 100 dollars right now. But there's a better joy in giving 100 dollars as well. Each principle in islam is geared to make us as a people, the kind who likes to give, not receive. For that is what love is. Love stems from one's desire to give, while lust is one's desire to receive. Look at the pliiars of islam. Fasting is a time in which you deprive yourself of all your personal pleasures,(food, drink, sex) and instead focus on bettering others. Zakat is when you give to charity. Again, it's not about you, but others. Etc. And when you reach that mentality when your desire to give exceeds your desire to receive, then you'll be able to really understand the nature in which Allah(swt) created us and understand the difference between love and lust. So when it comes to homosexuality, your reasoning for not doing so is not because Allah(swt) says so, but because it is not based on love. And because your mentality is focused on doing what's right and what is best and showing love, then the chance of lust creeping in is practically impossible. Thus attraction to the same sex is impossible. And the reason why one should not marry a non-muslim is not because Allah(swt) says so, but because it's what's best.

P.S. I know the hadith you are referring to. I 'll present it for you if I can find it as well, insha'Allah. A muslim is not a muslim when they sin with the intent to disobey. Thus there is no such thing as a homosexual muslim, because homosexuality is clearly against islam and one who practices it is clearly disobeying Allah's will. So as long as their intent is to be a homosexual, then they arw not muslim. However, if they repent and are sincere, then they return to the submission of Allah(swt), thus making them muslim.

:clap an excellent post brother Fatihah! May Allah bless you!!!

 

[Gharib]

eselam,
Muslims are no different than Christians in that there is no one who is born homosexual. People who say they were born homosexual are wrong, because they have an ulterior reason for saying that. They are either practicing homosexuals, or are doctors who try to placate them. After all, would a homosexual keep going to a doctor who tells him he is not a born homosexual, when the person believes he is??

you make a good point. i agree that no one is born homosexual. most evidence points to early childhood factors/environment.

A very good reason for saying that no person is born homosexual is because God condemns homosexuality, Lev 20:13, 18:22. Even Muslims believe the Hebrew Scriptures.
The Christian Greek Scriptures also say the same things, 1Cor 6:9,10, 1Tim 1:10, Rom 1:26-32. Would a loving God condemn a person to everlasting death if a person had no control over his sexual preference???
People are caused to become homosexual because of parents or friends. Many homosexuals, after learning God's commands, have changed, so we know it can be done, if the person really wants to.

this is where i dissagree. in the quran Allah condemns homosexual activity. it specifically says in one of the verses "...do you then leave your wives..."

no one can be a homosexual (have feelings for the same sex) unless Allah wills it. everything that happens is because Allah says so. we cannot say that heterosexuality is condemned, but we say hat certain homosexual activity is condemned such as adultery. the same applies to those who have feelings for the same sex,engaging in such acts is unlawful, but having feelings is not. because even though a heterosexual muslim may not have any feelings for any non-muslim, we are still told "lower your gaze". so based on that it is not homosexuality that is condemned but instead homosexual activity. many people though, can change and have changed. it is mostly people of abrahamic faiths that change from homosexual to heterosexual, because no other faith requires full submission to gods will. therefore we accept that what god tells us is te right way, and he would not tell us to change if it wasn't possible. other religions, however, do not have this total submission or way of life, thereofre the people are left to make their own decisions on some issues, one such issue is homosexuality. you wil find that it is mostly non-believers in god that say homosexuality is natural from birth and that no one can change. they have never surrendered to anyone elses will to see that all things are possible they are used to having it their way.
does anyone agree with this? can you add more to it?
if anyone dissagrees then can you please explain why?

 

[maro]

Although i understand what you mean ,eselam , but i still think that the " a homosexual muslim doesn't exist " and " a rapist muslim doesn't exist " statements need to be re- phrased because they can easily be misunderstood

it's better to say that while practicing sodomy or rape , one's faith is near the zero point and he's in great danger considering that this could be the last moment of his life....the same thing applies to all grave sins

i also like to make a distinction between ' homosexuality ' as a mere sexual orientation and the act of sodomy which is prohibited in Islam....i don't view homosexuality as something negative as long as one's faith is strong enough not to be lead to the act of sodomy....wether it's congenital or acquired....it's still a trial for one's faith....just like heterosexual people can face many other trials in life....isn't what this life is all about ? A trial ?

 

[Gharib]

Although i understand what you mean ,eselam , but i still think that the " a homosexual muslim doesn't exist " and " a rapist muslim doesn't exist " statements need to be re- phrased because they can easily be misunderstood

it's better to say that while practicing sodomy or rape , one's faith is near the zero point and he's in great danger considering that this could be the last moment of his life....the same thing applies to all grave sins

yes that is a better way to say it and can be very easily understood. Jazak Allah Khairan

i also like to make a distinction between ' homosexuality ' as a mere sexual orientation and the act of sodomy which is prohibited in Islam....i don't view homosexuality as something negative as long as one's faith is strong enough not to be lead to the act of sodomy....wether it's congenital or acquired....it's still a trial for one's faith....just like heterosexual people can face many other trials in life....isn't what this life is all about ? A trial ?

good post sister.

the above is the point that i have been making in my last few posts, do we accept that a muslim who has feelings for the same sex is being trialed by Allah instead of saying that one chooses to love the same sex and refuses the opposite sex intentionally.

 

[Gharib]

a question about homosexuality being labeled as natural.

in most threads that i've posted about homosexuality, non-muslims who are pro-gay always see homosexuality as natural. now this question is sort of made towards fatihah because we've been in those homosexual threads together. i know his stance on the topic and he probably knows mine. but everyone can answer i'd like to know what you all think.

i always argue that homosexuality is not natural. one good reason is, there is no sufficent evidence to support that view. reson 2 is, even if there was sufficent evidence, i would not accept the non-muslim pro-gay definition of the word 'natural'. when they say natural, they also mean 'moral'. finding the roots of something, that is whether homosexuality is natural or acquired after birth, and giving something a category, in this case is it moral or not, are 2 different things. now unless pro-gays do not separate the morality of homosexuality from its roots, i cannot agree with them. but if there is enough evidence to support the view that it is natural and morality is separated from the word natural, then i can accept that homosexuality is natural, based on what i've been saying that a homosexual person is being trialed.

any thoughts?

 

[Sahar]

It seems we understand "natural" differently. For us, natural is the straight fitrah and disposition. For them natural includes the healthy and the pathological, the normal and abnormal, etc. And according to their definition, I don't know how the natural argument is used to prove homosexuality as moral.

Moreover, it's really sad to see some people view animals behavior as their moral reference, "See, it occurs in animals"!! :areyoucra