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Muslims: Does Islam Condemned Pedophilia

I was discussing Islam with a friend (who is muslim) and he told me various things bout Islam one of them being the views on islam against Pedophilia... I was surprised for him to not be able to quote any hadiths or point me in the right direction as he had given me a Quran to read I did some reasearch on the net and only found texts that actually approve of pedophilia

Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same) (65:4)

"Allah's Apostle said to me, "Have you got married O Jabir?" I replied, "Yes." He asked "What, a virgin or a matron?" I replied, "Not a virgin but a matron." He said, "Why did you not marry a young girl who would have fondled with you?" (Bukhari 59:382)

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: “Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine.” (Sahih Muslim) This is confirmed in many other hadith as well.

According to the most reliable traditions, Aisha brought her dolls to Muhammad’s house for play (Muslim 3341 ) and he would fondle the little girl in the tub while taking baths with her (Bukhari 6:298). Aisha was just a teenager by the time Muhammad died, but she had already spent over half her life in marriage to him

I really don't know what to say to my friend as discussing this matter further with him may only lead to arguments. He only just became a muslim so I don't know wether this information is correct

Could I please have some input from my fellow muslim brothers on this particular topic

Regards
PK
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Most cultures if not all cultures many centuries ago had their men marrying teenagers.
You cannot judge these testimonies by the standards of much more than a thousand years later, that is simply absurd.
 
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Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Although this phenomena still exists on many of the regions which are historically related to the ethnic groups who became Muslim.
 

.lava

Veteran Member
I was discussing Islam with a friend (who is muslim) and he told me various things bout Islam one of them being the views on islam against Pedophilia... I was surprised for him to not be able to quote any hadiths or point me in the right direction as he had given me a Quran to read I did some reasearch on the net and only found texts that actually approve of pedophilia

Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same) (65:4)

"Allah's Apostle said to me, "Have you got married O Jabir?" I replied, "Yes." He asked "What, a virgin or a matron?" I replied, "Not a virgin but a matron." He said, "Why did you not marry a young girl who would have fondled with you?" (Bukhari 59:382)

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: “Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine.” (Sahih Muslim) This is confirmed in many other hadith as well.

According to the most reliable traditions, Aisha brought her dolls to Muhammad’s house for play (Muslim 3341 ) and he would fondle the little girl in the tub while taking baths with her (Bukhari 6:298). Aisha was just a teenager by the time Muhammad died, but she had already spent over half her life in marriage to him

I really don't know what to say to my friend as discussing this matter further with him may only lead to arguments. He only just became a muslim so I don't know wether this information is correct

Could I please have some input from my fellow muslim brothers on this particular topic

Regards
PK

dear friend, what Islam condemns is cruelty and hypocrisy. you can judge any kind of actions of men from this aspect. keep this in mind.

you should not trust all hadiths. there are many fake ones. age of Aisha (PBUH) is one of the subjects that's being discussed many times. i would like to share what i think. first of all, Mohammad (PBUH) was not just an ordinary man. look at us, it's been 1400 years but we are still talking about him and his marriages. this is because he was a public figure who made an impact on societies. therefor it is a bit weird to consdier his marriage as an ordinary marriage that based on sexuality. for a ordinary man that is what marriage is. but with Prophets it is not really about sexuality because Prophets do not have free will. who they would marry and when they would marry was never up to them. these desicions were made by God. most of the people who react this issue are people who do not accept him as a Prophet therefor they perceive his marriages as if it is equal sexual relationship. on the other hand there are abusive Muslim men who do the same. yes, they are abusive. because, for example, you know we have daily practices. 5 times a day, salaat and also 2 sunnah salaats. that makes 7 times salaat. but Mohammad (PBUH) was commanded to perform salaat much more than that. he had to perform salaat 1/3 or 2/3 of night every single day of his life. that would make 8-9 hours of salaat continiously each night for a life time. as a Muslim, i know this is very difficult dicipline to follow. i can not perform salaat for 9 hours. today, those who say that they want to do what Prophet did so they marry young girls would never attempt to perform salaats as Prophet did. if they did, i assure you they would not even be able to think about girls. do you see hypocrisy here? if they really want to do what Prophet did, then they should start from daily practices. but when it comes to this, they would say 'Oh he is Prophet, we can not be like him' but when it comes to satisfying their egos, they are the first ones on the line. but nobody is stupid to buy it.

age of Aisha (PBUH) is not correctly known, imo. yes she was very young yet she was very happy with him. in those times as they did not care for females and societies consider women as a burden, they did not care for their birthdates either. girls did not have birth certificates. only when they start having their period, then families would start counting years. each girl who reach puberty was considered as 'ready to marry'. so if that's the case, if a girl had her period when she was 12 and it was said she got married when she was 5, that would make 17 years old.

another fact that we should consider is that time and societies and necessities are changing. today, it is more normal and expected for a girl to go school and study. then marry. marriage also has to be desicion of two people not a third party. when people marry, they m ake a promise to keep for a life time. that would be so cruel to force people to marry or make very oung teenager to get married even before she or he did not know about sexuality. this is abusive too. today, in our dergahs for example men and women study Qur'an seperately. no men are allowed where women study. some mothers would bring their sons. until age 14, they could bring their sons. but after that age, for example a 15 year old boy would not be allowed where women gather together. he would be considered as a boy who entered first stage of being a man, thanks to hormons. same works with girls.

there are certain commands in Qur'an that does not need special commentary. they are clear. they do no change. some of the stuff has to be applied to time because societies and necessities are changing by time. we do not expect our socities follow traditions of societies who lived 1400 years ago. this is ridicules. but as i said commands of God that's written in Qur'an does not change. according to these commands a virgin girl has to marry with virgin boy. if one is not virgin, he is not allowed to marry a virgin girl. in case two people fell in love, then that is another issue.

so far i can tell :)

thank you

.
 

Sajdah

Al-Aqsa Is In My Heart.


age of Aisha (PBUH) is not correctly known, imo. yes she was very young yet she was very happy with him. in those times as they did not care for females and societies consider women as a burden, they did not care for their birthdates either. girls did not have birth certificates. only when they start having their period, then families would start counting years. each girl who reach puberty was considered as 'ready to marry'. so if that's the case, if a girl had her period when she was 12 and it was said she got married when she was 5, that would make 17 years old.

.
I think the same too, because Aisha engaged to someone else before she got engaged to prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
And if we considered that her age was 9, people of Mecca did not object to Aisha's Marriage and also her Parents did the same. So it was acceptable by all their tribe.
 

Delamere

Member
Is it true that Aisha was the daughter of Abu Bakr and that she was given to Muhammed when she was 6 years old, that the Prophet was more than 40 years older than she was, that he engaged in sexual behaviour with her until she was 9 years old at which time he "married" her and then consummated the marriage by full intercourse?

This seems clear from Bukhari et al. The record does not say that Aisha was a teenager at this time but that she was a child. Does anyone know of any other world religion in which its leader engaged in sexual practices with children? I have never heard of such thing.

Should the conduct of a prophet not be more righteous than mere mortals? Lava's convoluted justification is quite bizarre? Should we not just accept that this happened and cope with it?

Also, I have never heard anyone claim that a prophet did not have free will or be subject to the same moral law as everyone else. I cannot accept that God would inspire someone to behave in a way that was immoral.

Did the Prophet restrict himself to having no more than four wives as the Holy Quran says?
 

EiNsTeiN

Boo-h!
I'd like to add that the conditions of marraige in Islam include "maturity".

I'd also second what Caladan, lava and Sajadah said before me...
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Centuries ago, it was much harder to make a living than it is for many people today. Anytime you live in a society where it is as hard to make a living as it was in most societies centuries ago, you will have older males marrying much younger females. Why? Because by the time a male becomes well enough established in a relatively poor society to support a wife, he is much older than the available females.
 

EiNsTeiN

Boo-h!
Is it true that Aisha was the daughter of Abu Bakr and that she was given to Muhammed when she was 6 years old, that the Prophet was more than 40 years older than she was, that he engaged in sexual behaviour with her until she was 9 years old at which time he "married" her and then consummated the marriage by full intercourse? Absolutly not true.

This seems clear from Bukhari et al. The record does not say that Aisha was a teenager at this time but that she was a child. Does anyone know of any other world religion in which its leader engaged in sexual practices with children? I have never heard of such thing. The record does not say that Aisha was a child!

Should the conduct of a prophet not be more righteous than mere mortals? Lava's convoluted justification is quite bizarre? Should we not just accept that this happened and cope with it?

Also, I have never heard anyone claim that a prophet did not have free will or be subject to the same moral law as everyone else. I cannot accept that God would inspire someone to behave in a way that was immoral. And the prophet (PBUH) certainly didn't behave in a way that was immoral, I don't believe lava stated so..

Did the Prophet restrict himself to having no more than four wives as the Holy Quran says?
The Quran says that one can not have more than four wives in the same time, but nothing about having more than four in a life time..
 
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.lava

Veteran Member
except for Aisha (PBUH) all the women he got married were older than 50 years old. they were widows and actually some asked him to marry him to be protected.

.
 

jamaesi

To Save A Lamb
I don't even know why I am bothering to dignify this with a response, it's quite clear that the only reading and researching of Islam you have been doing is from anti-Islam websites and your post is but a copy-paste from many of them.

I was discussing Islam with a friend (who is muslim) and he told me various things bout Islam one of them being the views on islam against Pedophilia... I was surprised for him to not be able to quote any hadiths or point me in the right direction as he had given me a Quran to read I did some reasearch on the net and only found texts that actually approve of pedophilia


If you talk to most Islamic scholars, all of them will give you about the same response- there is no set age where someone is ready for marriage because everyone is different. When someone is ready for the responsibilities of marriage then they're ready, and people aren't stamped with the date that will happen on their bum when they're born. The world we live in is much, much different than the world was over a thousand years ago, and in most societies people become ready for marriage at a much later age than back then.

Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same) (65:4)
I haven't the slightest why you quoted that, oh, wait, I know why! This verse is quoted on all those anti-Islam websites you've been looking at even though it has zilch to do with pedophilia. LOL!

Well, I am so sorry to disappoint, but that verse actually refers to 'iddah, which is the waiting period for a woman after a divorce until she can remarry.
"Allah's Apostle said to me, "Have you got married O Jabir?" I replied, "Yes." He asked "What, a virgin or a matron?" I replied, "Not a virgin but a matron." He said, "Why did you not marry a young girl who would have fondled with you?" (Bukhari 59:382)
It would be helpful if you quoted the WHOLE hadith, not just a portion of it. Oh, right, all those anti-Islam websites you've been copy-pasting from don't have the full version of it. That's okay, cause I do, here it is...

Narrated Jabir: Allah's Apostle (SallAllaho Alaihi Wasallam) said to me, "Have you got married O Jabir?"
I replied, "Yes."
He asked "What, a virgin or a matron?"
I replied, "Not a virgin but a matron."
He said, "Why did you not marry a young girl who would have fondled with you?"
I replied, "O Allah's Apostle! My father was martyred on the day of Uhud and left nine (orphan) daughters who are my nine sisters; so I disliked to have another young girl of their age, but (I sought) an (elderly) woman who could comb their hair and look after them."
The Prophet (SallAllaho Alaihi Wasallam) said, "You have done the right thing."

Well, doesn't that put a different light on it. Funny what putting things in context does and not just cherry-picking a few sentences out does...

Anyway, this is just Muhammad, peace be upon him, joking around with him. Muhammad had an awesome sense of humour and joked around a lot and laughed a lot- there's many hadiths that record his jokes and him laughing so hard you could see his back teeth. He also used his sense of humour to get important points across. There's many other hadiths that have been twisted into something they aren't because people missed the humour or joke, to quote the late Heath Ledger, why so serious?


'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: “Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine.” (Sahih Muslim) This is confirmed in many other hadith as well.

According to the most reliable traditions, Aisha brought her dolls to Muhammad’s house for play (Muslim 3341 )
As explained by Lava, we really haven't the slightest how old Aisha, may G-d be pleased with her, was when she was engaged and then married to Muhammad. To build a timeline of her life from the other hadiths, she would have been from late teens to early twenties when the engagement and marriage occurred.

In Arabic, numbers are counted without the tens. 16 becomes 6, 19 becomes 9. That could explain why the ages 6 and 9 were used in the hadith.

However, most of the sources and scholars agree on Aisha being 12 when engaged and 15 when she went to live with him.

Also, as explained earlier in this post and in other posts, even if she was 6 and 9- that was pretty much normal back then all over the world. It really doesn't bother any rational historian. Aisha also shows no signs of being abused, she was a very intelligent and wise and powerful woman and became a strong leader in her community. She also had no problems with standing up to Muhammad when she disagreed with him- though Muhammad always treated her kindly and with respect. These aren't really the signs of an abused little girl.

And just to throw this in here, Aisha being married to the Prophet from a young age would have allowed him to teach her even more about Islam- remember, this is the woman who narrated thousands of hadiths and became the first scholar of Islam!

Oh, and if you're using playing with dolls as a sign of being a child- I'm a 21 woman and I still play with dolls and I still sleep with the stuffed elephant I've had since I was a little girl (and that elephant goes with me everywhere, from staying overnight at a friend's to foreign countries to into surgery), so neener. :p Phhhbt!

Oh and by the way, Aisha also continued to play with her toys even long after she was married. There's a story about Aisha and Muhammad that I absolutely love, Aisha had put wings on her toy horses and Muhammad joked (remember what I said about his sense of humour?) around with her, asking what those where on the backs of the horses, why she put those wings there, she was being silly because horses don't have wings. A defiant Aisha responded that King Solomon's horses had wings, so her horses could have wings, too!

and he would fondle the little girl in the tub while taking baths with her (Bukhari 6:298). Aisha was just a teenager by the time Muhammad died, but she had already spent over half her life in marriage to him
Let me quote 6:298

Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).

And explainify, because congratulations, your anti-Islamic websites have COMPLETELY missed the point of this.

First sentence- Muhammad and Aisha would both wash themselves from the same container of water. This container of water is not a bathtub, are you trying to be ridiculous? They are in Saudi Arabia. There is not enough water to fill a bathtub and even if they did have enough water to fill a bathtub, their ritual cleansing would not be valid because it would be considered a waste of water, it does not take a bathtub full of water to clean yourself. Preserving water, and all of nature, is part of Islam. This shows that touching a woman does not make you unclean, even though some madh'habs think differently, but I'm Hanafi and we believe that a man touching a woman and a woman touching a man doesn't not them unclean..

Second sentence- Aisha and Muhammad would cuddle and basically have foreplay (but not intercourse because you are not allowed to have sex when you're on your period as a mercy towards women because being on your period is a messy and painful and sometimes embarrassing time) while she was on her period. This is actually a big deal- it shows that even though a woman is on her menses, she is not an unclean thing that dirties all she touches and she must be kept away from anyone else until her menses stop.

Third sentence- This is a continuation of the point of the second sentence. Even though she is on her menses, she can still wash his head while they are in a mosque and that she can actually even be in the mosque while on her period- itikaf is basically a "retreat" at a mosque.


I really don't know what to say to my friend as discussing this matter further with him may only lead to arguments. He only just became a muslim so I don't know wether this information is correct
I'm becoming more and more convinced your "Muslim friend" doesn't exist and is but a ruse for you to trash our Islamic DIR with false anti-Islamic propaganda and lies.

Could I please have some input from my fellow muslim brothers on this particular topic

Regards
PK
Oops, I'm a sister but I answered anyway!

Peace,
jamaesi, who doesn't really tolerate the smearing of her Prophet or her role model and favourite feminist Aisha.
 
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fullyveiled muslimah

Evil incarnate!
I don't even know why I am bothering to dignify this with a response, it's quite clear that the only reading and researching of Islam you have been doing is from anti-Islam websites and your post is but a copy-paste from many of them.



If you talk to most Islamic scholars, all of them will give you about the same response- there is no set age where someone is ready for marriage because everyone is different. When someone is ready for the responsibilities of marriage then they're ready, and people aren't stamped with the date that will happen on their bum when they're born. The world we live in is much, much different than the world was over a thousand years ago, and in most societies people become ready for marriage at a much later age than back then.

I haven't the slightest why you quoted that, oh, wait, I know why! This verse is quoted on all those anti-Islam websites you've been looking at even though it has zilch to do with pedophilia. LOL!

Well, I am so sorry to disappoint, but that verse actually refers to 'iddah, which is the waiting period for a woman after a divorce until she can remarry.
It would be helpful if you quoted the WHOLE hadith, not just a portion of it. Oh, right, all those anti-Islam websites you've been copy-pasting from don't have the full version of it. That's okay, cause I do, here it is...

Narrated Jabir: Allah's Apostle (SallAllaho Alaihi Wasallam) said to me, "Have you got married O Jabir?"
I replied, "Yes."
He asked "What, a virgin or a matron?"
I replied, "Not a virgin but a matron."
He said, "Why did you not marry a young girl who would have fondled with you?"
I replied, "O Allah's Apostle! My father was martyred on the day of Uhud and left nine (orphan) daughters who are my nine sisters; so I disliked to have another young girl of their age, but (I sought) an (elderly) woman who could comb their hair and look after them."
The Prophet (SallAllaho Alaihi Wasallam) said, "You have done the right thing."

Well, doesn't that put a different light on it. Funny what putting things in context does and not just cherry-picking a few sentences out does...

Anyway, this is just Muhammad, peace be upon him, joking around with him. Muhammad had an awesome sense of humour and joked around a lot and laughed a lot- there's many hadiths that record his jokes and him laughing so hard you could see his back teeth. He also used his sense of humour to get important points across. There's many other hadiths that have been twisted into something they aren't because people missed the humour or joke, to quote the late Heath Ledger, why so serious?


As explained by Lava, we really haven't the slightest how old Aisha, may G-d be pleased with her, was when she was engaged and then married to Muhammad. To build a timeline of her life from the other hadiths, she would have been from late teens to early twenties when the engagement and marriage occurred.

In Arabic, numbers are counted without the tens. 16 becomes 6, 19 becomes 9. That could explain why the ages 6 and 9 were used in the hadith.

However, most of the sources and scholars agree on Aisha being 12 when engaged and 15 when she went to live with him.

Also, as explained earlier in this post and in other posts, even if she was 6 and 9- that was pretty much normal back then all over the world. It really doesn't bother any rational historian. Aisha also shows no signs of being abused, she was a very intelligent and wise and powerful woman and became a strong leader in her community. She also had no problems with standing up to Muhammad when she disagreed with him- though Muhammad always treated her kindly and with respect. These aren't really the signs of an abused little girl.

And just to throw this in her, Aisha being married to the Prophet from a young age would have allowed him to teach her even more about Islam- remember, this is the woman who narrated thousands of hadiths and became the first scholar of Islam!

Oh, and if you're using playing with dolls as a sign of being a child- I'm a 21 woman and I still play with dolls and I still sleep with the stuffed elephant I've had since I was a little girl (and that elephant goes with me everywhere, from staying overnight at a friend's to foreign countries to into surgery), so neener. :p Phhhbt!

Oh and by the way, Aisha also continued to play with her toys even long after she was married. There's a story about Aisha and Muhammad that I absolutely love, Aisha had put wings on her toy horses and Muhammad joked (remember what I said about his sense of humour?) around with her, asking what those where on the backs of the horses, why she put those wings there, she was being silly because horses don't have wings. A defiant Aisha responded that King Solomon's horses had wings, so her horses could have wings, too!

Let me quote 6:298

Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).

And explainify, because congratulations, your anti-Islamic websites have COMPLETELY missed the point of this.

First sentence- Muhammad and Aisha would both wash themselves from the same container of water. This container of water is not a bathtub, are you trying to be ridiculous? They are in Saudi Arabia. There is not enough water to fill a bathtub and even if they did have enough water to fill a bathtub, their ritual cleansing would not be valid because it would be considered a waste of water, it does not take a bathtub full of water to clean yourself. Preserving water, and all of nature, is part of Islam. This shows that touching a woman does not make you unclean, even though some madh'habs think differently, but I'm Hanafi and we believe that a man touching a woman and a woman touching a man doesn't not them unclean..

Second sentence- Aisha and Muhammad would cuddle and basically have foreplay (but not intercourse because you are not allowed to have sex when you're on your period as a mercy towards women because being on your period is a messy and painful and sometimes embarrassing time) while she was on her period. This is actually a big deal- it shows that even though a woman is on her menses, she is not an unclean thing that dirties all she touches and she must be kept away from anyone else until her menses stop.

Third sentence- This is a continuation of the point of the second sentence. Even though she is on her menses, she can still wash his head while they are in a mosque and that she can actually even be in the mosque while on her period- itikaf is basically a "retreat" at a mosque.


I'm becoming more and more convinced your "Muslim friend" doesn't exist and is but a ruse for you to trash our Islamic DIR with false anti-Islamic propaganda and lies.

Oops, I'm a sister but I answered anyway!

Peace,
jamaesi, who doesn't really tolerate the smearing of her Prophet or her role model and favourite feminist Aisha.


LOL, I had refused to dignify it myself with an answer. An excellent response this is. I really don't understand the big problem with Aisha's age anyway. It is only western culture that makes 18 the "legal" age for sexual contact with an "adult". The age defies the physical reality of human sexual maturity. Just because our culture says this is wrong 1) doesn't make it wrong and 2) doesn't apply to other cultures more than 1,000 years ago. I never understand people taking exception to this issue.
 

jamaesi

To Save A Lamb
LOL, I had refused to dignify it myself with an answer. An excellent response this is. I really don't understand the big problem with Aisha's age anyway. It is only western culture that makes 18 the "legal" age for sexual contact with an "adult". The age defies the physical reality of human sexual maturity. Just because our culture says this is wrong 1) doesn't make it wrong and 2) doesn't apply to other cultures more than 1,000 years ago. I never understand people taking exception to this issue.
Seriously, ugh. In Judaism the age of marriage is 12 for females, which is probably about the age Aisha, may G-d be pleased with her, was. People act like Muhammad marrying Aisha was the first time a older man wed a younger women, when, uh, no, actually that's how things were done back then.

And at least Aisha had a happy and loving marriage with Muhammad, you can't really say that for a lot of woman throughout history no matter what age they were married. :cover:

Islamophobes call us perverts when all they do is obsess over an issue like this, jeez...
 
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