Muslims Only: Is apostasy a capital crime in Islam?

[Gharib]

Assalamu alaykum.

Bismilahir-rahmanir-rahim.

For those of you who haven't paid much attention to the thread 'Muslim and Western' I will explain the purpose of this thread.

The question regarding the punishment for apostasy was asked and two different opinions from the same website were brought forward. I posted the view that says it is a capital crime and sister Sahar posted the view of Dr Jamal Badawi which states that it is not a capital crime.

After reading through the article of Badawi I saw that it contained many errors.

I will go through the errors that I picked up in this thread explaining that his reasoning is wrong and his evidence is 'misplaced' and therefore makes the punishment for apostasy seem unreal.

Before I begin I want to clarify that I respect and love all Scholars regardless of whether I accept their views or not. Scholars are not infallible and if we were to understand the scope of this infallibility we would see the bigger picture. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala wanted the 4 madhhabs to survive and at the same time each of the founders had wrong interpretations on minor issues which is a blessing from Allah. Had it been that one of the Imams had no mistakes then surely we would have worshiped him instead of Allah. And none other than Allah is infallible.

For those who want to read the article in question follow the link below:

Is Apostasy a Capital Crime in Islam? - Islamic Themes - Shari`ah - OnIslam.net

I will go through the first point which I believe is wrong tomorrow as I have no time now. And I do ask that everyone respects this thread and please do not post unless you find any fault in my posts while addressing the errors in Dr Badawis view.

Remember that this is in the DIR, please take discussions and arguments somewhere else.

 

[Gharib]

Any view point or argument that begins with 'the Qur'an doesn't mention it' is wrong in the very first instance those words are mentioned as Dr Badawi has done:

"There is no single verse in the Qur'an that prescribes an earthly punishment for apostasy."

If I may use an example that brother Fouad made a few days ago, the Qur'an doesn't prescribe an earthly punishment for rape either.

So by conclusion his first point of 'no evidence in the Qur'an' is invalid. If you set up yourself in this way, there are many things which the Qur'an doesn't mention and if you believe that it has to be in the Qur'an to be valid then any hadith which speaks of something not mentioned in the Qur'an yet doesn't contradict it will be discarded. To put it in basic terms, that's the kind of argument Qur'anists (Qur'an alone people) use.

 

[Gharib]

Latter on he mentions some hadith to support his view, I will go through them insha Allahu ta'ala.

First hadith:
Jabir ibn `Abdullah narrated that a Bedouin pledged allegiance to the Apostle of Allah for Islam (i.e. accepted Islam) and then the Bedouin got fever whereupon he said to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) "cancel my pledge." But the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) refused. He (the Bedouin) came to him (again) saying, "Cancel my pledge." But the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) refused. Then he (the Bedouin) left (Medina). Allah's Apostle said, "Madinah is like a pair of bellows (furnace): it expels its impurities and brightens and clear its good."

I have come across this hadith before and it is correct. But unlike the Qur'an where 'if it says so stays so' because it is the direct word of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, the hadith on the other hand need to be carefully examined and it must be known at what time/year/month it was said.

An example, alcohol was not prohibited during the Makkah period nor during the first years of the Madinah period. The establishment of Shariah began in Madinah with the revelation of verses that contained laws. Now if the Qur'an didn't mention alcohol but we had a hadith which says alcohol is permitted and we have another hadith which says alcohol is haram then we can't say that one of these hadith is fake. If they came out of the Prophet's salallahu alayhi wa salam mouth they are both correct. But what needs to be looked at is the time when these hadith were made.

If the hadith which permitted alcohol was mentioned in Makkah and then in Madinah another hadith which prohibits alcohol is mentioned then it is the ruling of the second hadith which we accept even though they are both Sahih.

Now since I am not a muhadith nor a scholar and since Dr Badawi has not shown us the historical background of the hadith above then it is safe to say that the hadith which speak of a punishment for the apostate are as valid as the one above. And I believe it is the 'time and place' thing which is causing confusion. If the hadith above was mentioned early on in the Madinah period and then the ones on punishment for apostasy are mentioned latter on then the ruling of the latter applies.

 

[OurCreed]

You know about that verse in the Holy Qur'an, "There shall be no compulsion in religion."?

 

[F0uad]

Gharib i have a question do you think capital punishment should always be executed?
Or when it is in time of war? Or when the person left Islam publicly?

Moreover i have a question why did Mohammed(saws) according to the Hadith let a apostate leave and this was during the time of Medina when if i am correct Sharia was in-place.

 

[OurCreed]

Gharib i have a question do you think capital punishment should always be executed?
Or when it is in time of war? Or when the person left Islam publicly?

Moreover i have a question why did Mohammed(saws) according to the Hadith let a apostate leave and this was during the time of Medina when if i am correct Sharia was in-place.

There is no punishment for apostasy in Islam at all, tell that to him.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Moreover i have a question why did Mohammed(saws) according to the Hadith let a apostate leave and this was during the time of Medina when if i am correct Sharia was in-place.

This was actually happened on more than one occasion.

A section of the people of the Book urge some from among themselves: why not affirm, in the early part of the day, belief in that which has been revealed unto the believers and repudiate it in the latter part of the day, perchance they may turn away from their faith. (3.73)

All commentaries agree that this chapter of the Holy Quran was revealed between the victory of Mecca and the demise of the Holy Prophet (sa). This conclusively proves that the Jews put it into practice after Islam became firmly established in Arabia.(Murder in the
Name of Allah, Mirza Tahir Ahmad

After Islam was established the Jews came up with the idea to become Muslim by day and apostates by night. They must have surely known the penalty is death. So countless Jews were willing to die to hope that other people would also leave Islam. They were inviting Muslims to leave Islam so that they can also die like them as apostates punished under the death penalty. I am sure all of this must be evident in Hadith, this is such a genius plan, surely 100's of Jews must have died under such Sharia.

I think I could convince everyone that Death is Punishment for Apostasy if I could only find a single incident where Holy Prophet (saw), himself (not anyone else claiming he was told such and such), gave such an order. I mean if Jews were pulling this plan I am sure we could find such an incident. Let the search begin.

Although I think it is of little to no dispute that this punishment was executed in times of War, for obvious reasons.

 

[Gharib]

You know about that verse in the Holy Qur'an, "There shall be no compulsion in religion."?

That's a very loose interpretation you have there.

I know about the verse but it seems you don't understand it.

 

[Gharib]

Gharib i have a question do you think capital punishment should always be executed?
Or when it is in time of war? Or when the person left Islam publicly?

Moreover i have a question why did Mohammed(saws) according to the Hadith let a apostate leave and this was during the time of Medina when if i am correct Sharia was in-place.

If you look into Islamic history, Abu Bakr radiallahu anhu and the rest of the Sahaba radiallau anhum waged war on a number of different kinds of apostates.

One such group was those who accepted everything that Islam taught except refused to pay Zakah. For having rejected one of the pillars of Islam, they were declared apostates and were given the option to repent and turn back to Islam. They refused, so the Mujahideen killed them (in war) for their apostasy.

As for the hadith, I already explained. The whole of Qur'an wasn't revealed to the Prophet on his first day in Madinah. The revelation continued till his last moments. There are a number of hadith which say to kill the apostates whose origins are from the Madinah period.

As Muslims we must view things through a logical and reasonable eye. Hadith of both natures exist in the Sahih collections for example:

Narrated Abu Burda: That the Prophet sent his (i.e. Abu Burda's) grandfather, Abu Musa and Mu'adh to Yemen and said to both of them "Facilitate things for the people (Be kind and lenient) and do not make things difficult (for people), and give them good tidings, and do not repulse them and both of you should obey each other." Abu Musa said, "O Allah's Prophet! In our land there is an alcoholic drink (prepared) from barley called Al-Mizr, and another (prepared) from honey, called Al-Bit"' The Prophet said, "All intoxicants are prohibited." Then both of them proceeded and Mu'adh asked Abu Musa, "How do you recite the Quran?" Abu Musa replied, "I recite it while I am standing, sitting or riding my riding animals, at intervals and piecemeal." Muadh said, "But I sleep and then get up. I sleep and hope for Allah's Reward for my sleep as I seek His Reward for my night prayer." Then he (i.e. Muadh) pitched a tent and they started visiting each other. Once Muadh paid a visit to Abu Musa and saw a chained man. Muadh asked, "What is this?" Abu Musa said, "(He was) a Jew who embraced Islam and has now turned apostate." Muadh said, "I will surely chop off his neck!" (Book #59, Hadith #632)

Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." (Book #83, Hadith #17)

The hadith of the beduin is also from Bukhari as stated by Dr Badawi.

So it is logical and reasonable to say that the hadith which lets the apostate go free occurred before the other two I have posted above and before any punishment for apostasy had been ordered by Allah.

It is the same as the two different hadith which speak about the length of the Prophets hair. One hadith says his hair was short and another says his hair just reached his shoulders (meaning it was long). We can't say that only one of these hadith is correct and the other false. Instead the first one mentions the length of the hair when the Prophet would have them cut and the other mentions the length of the hair after they had grown. Both hadith are correct, the only difference is the time of reporting.

This is not something that I am coming up with out of nowhere. There is evidence for this, but those who refuse to accept it will always find a way to support their views even if it means incorrectly interpreting the verses of the Qur'an. I find that very funny actually coming from Ahmadis.

 

[Rational_Mind]

So does anyone have a single verse to share to support this ruling from the Quran?

Or does anyone have a single incident to share where the Holy Prophet (saw) executed such an order in his lifetime?

So far it seems like a lot speculation.

 

[Aquitaine]

Does any of our Muslim members actually support the idea of death for leaving Islam? Just curious....

 

[Gharib]

Does any of our Muslim members actually support the idea of death for leaving Islam? Just curious....

Yes, I accept that ruling. Just as I accept all other rulings of Islam.

 

[Aquitaine]

Yes, I accept that ruling. Just as I accept all other rulings of Islam.

Wow....

 

[OurCreed]

That's a very loose interpretation you have there.

I know about the verse but it seems you don't understand it.

I can say the same thing to you as well, my friend.

 

[Gharib]

I can say the same thing to you as well, my friend.

I have no problem with that.

 

[OurCreed]

I have no problem with that.

I see your title next to your name, 'I want Khilafah back.'

Do me a favor and go to Google images and type in, 'Khalifa of Islam'.

There you go.

 

[Gharib]

I see your title next to your name, 'I want Khilafah back.'

Do me a favor and go to Google images and type in, 'Khalifa of Islam'.

There you go.

Right, your beliefs say contrary to the teachings of Muhammed. Of course you would disagree.

 

[OurCreed]

Right, your beliefs say contrary to the teachings of Muhammed. Of course you would disagree.

It is only a matter of interpretation. We believe ours is the correct, you believe yours is correct.

Let us see which side ALLAH is on.

So far...we are still here.

 

[Aamer]

Yes, I accept that ruling. Just as I accept all other rulings of Islam.

Rulings of Islam or fatwas of sub-human Saudi scholars? Sheikh Ibn Baz gave a fatwa in 1966 that the sun revolves around the earth. If you didn't believe this you are a kafir according to your scholar. Do you accept this ruling as well?

Throw the scholars down the well. So Islam can be free. Allah has blessed me with eyes and a brain. I can read his book, the Quran, for myself. I worship Allah. Not scholars. Those scholars will not be there defending you on the day of judgment. What they rule haraam or halal is of no concern to me.

[16:116] And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe: "This is lawful and that is unlawful;" that you seek to invent lies about God. Those who invent lies about God will not succeed.

 

[Aamer]

Does any of our Muslim members actually support the idea of death for leaving Islam? Just curious....

This is not a law you will find in Quran. This is a law created by those disgusting Saudi scholars who think THEY ARE God. They have no right to make up laws. Who follows their crap? Ignorant Muslims who can not read the Quran for themselves or choose not to and blindly follow/worship their scholars. Show me the verse in Quran where it says kill apostates. You won't find it. You will find this in Hadith (man made books NOT authorized by God or Prophet Muhammad) & you will find this in the fatwas of those pig faced Saudi scholars... The enemies of Allah!

Apostates are wronging themselves. God has the right to punish them however he pleases. We humans were not given that authority. Peace.