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Muslims Only! - The "true" Islam/Islam Reformed?

Do you agree or disagree with the idea that the Ahmadiyya sect represents a reformed true Islam?

  • I am a Shiite Muslim and DISAGREE that the Ahmadiyya sect represents a reformed true Islam

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I am an Ahmadiyya Muslim and DISAGREE that the Ahmadiyya sect represents a reformed true Islam

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I am a Muslim and AGREE that the Ahmadiyya sect represents a reformed true Islam

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I am a Sunni Muslim and AGREE that the Ahmadiyya sect represents a reformed true Islam

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I am a Shiite Muslim and AGREE that the Ahmadiyya sect represents a reformed true Islam

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    12

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Greetings to our Muslim RF Membership.

A few days ago, I was struck by an extraordinary claim and couldn't quite believe what I was reading. I'll be quite honest, I'm rarely shocked by anything I read on RF, but this post, which I have been given tacit approval to use, literally jumped off the page at me.

I am genuinely interested in the overall Muslim reaction to the quote below. Please, understand that I don't want to start a conflict over this and so have chosen to make the poll visible so that no one can say the vote was rigged by non-Muslims, adding a vote to a particular answer. That said, though non-Muslims may comment, as per normal, I'd prefer that non-Muslims stayed out of this discussion altogether.

Here is the quote that I am talking about:

Please focus on the following points.
  1. Islam has been reformed under the Ahmadiyya and is one of the fastest spreading religious community in the world.
  2. Ahmadiyya or true Islam has peacefully spread in about 206 countries/territories of the world. In about 150 years Ahmadiyya are already more than the Zoroastrians and perhaps the Judaism people, no disrespect intended to anybody.
  3. if one is truthful one would increase despite the opposition, persecution and killings done by the opponents.
  4. Ahmadiyya Muslims follow teachings of Quran as did Muhammad follow. In fact Ahmadiyya follow in Muhammad’s footsteps.
  5. Those who doubt that Islam spread peacefully in times of Muhammad they should focus on spread of Ahmadiyya true Islam, If it has happened now peacefully, it should be a clear sign for the doubtful that Islam spread peacefully in times of Muhammad.

Bonus questions:
Do potential respondents agree that the Ahmadiyya (sect represents) true Islam?
Do potential respondents agree that the Ahmadiyya follow in Muhammad's footsteps?
Do potential respondents agree that the Islam has been reformed into the Ahmadiyya sect?

Any comments would be appreciated aiding non-Muslims to further their understanding of the Muslim community. Thanks in advance for your time, consideration and cooperation.

Paul/YmirGF


(Poll now fixed... no pun intended. :) )

@Godobeyer @FearGod @Servant_of_the_One1 @Gharib @Cordoba @peacecrusader888 @DawudTalut @paarsurrey @Shia Islam @mojtaba
@Smart_Guy @TashaN @Useless2015
 
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Gharib

I want Khilafah back
According to the consensus of the Sunni scholars the Ahmadiyya sect are outside of the fold of Islam.

The following link is a fatwa issued by Al Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt. https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg00802.html

Narrated Sa`d:
Allah's Messenger set out for Tabuk, appointing `Ali as his deputy (in Medina). `Ali said, "Do you want to leave me with the children and women?" The Prophet said, "Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me."
Sahih Bukhari.
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
Greetings to our Muslim RF Membership.

A few days ago, I was struck by an extraordinary claim and couldn't quite believe what I was reading. I'll be quite honest, I'm rarely shocked by anything I read on RF, but this post, which I have been given tacit approval to use, literally jumped off the page at me.

I am genuinely interested in the overall Muslim reaction to the quote below. Please, understand that I don't want to start a conflict over this and so have chosen to make the poll visible so that no one can say the vote was rigged by non-Muslims, adding a vote to a particular answer. That said, though non-Muslims may comment, as per normal, I'd prefer that non-Muslims stayed out of this discussion altogether.

Here is the quote that I am talking about:



Bonus questions:
Do potential respondents agree that the Ahmadiyya (sect represents) true Islam?
Do potential respondents agree that the Ahmadiyya follow in Muhammad's footsteps?
Do potential respondents agree that the Islam has been reformed into the Ahmadiyya sect?

Any comments would be appreciated aiding non-Muslims to further their understanding of the Muslim community. Thanks in advance for your time, consideration and cooperation.

Paul/YmirGF


(Poll now fixed... no pun intended. :) )

.......

Peace be on you.
A=
1-Allah never sends Divine reformers by asking existing leaders etc, these reformers are never easily welcomed. Please remember the cases of Hazrat Moses (a.s.), Hazrat Jesus (a.s.) and Hazrat Muhammad (s.a.w.). In the start they were called names of all possible types.

2- When they were sent, some believed, most denied in the beginning, but at time passed they were accepted by more and more people.


B=
Bonus questions by YmirGF

Q=Do potential respondents agree that the Ahmadiyya (sect represents) true Islam?.....
Answer: Yes.

Q=Do potential respondents agree that the Ahmadiyya follow in Muhammad's footsteps?
Answer: Yes.


Q=Do potential respondents agree that the Islam has been reformed into the Ahmadiyya sect?
Answer: Yes...[To Ahmadiyya-Muslims, others are non-Ahmadiyya Muslims]


C=
Ahmadiyya-Muslims believes that The promised reformer promised by Allah and Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) has come as subservient-to-Prophet-Muhammad s.a.w. .......Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. being last-law-bearer-prophet + leader of all Prophets.......Holy Quran being last and perfect Book of shariah.......Khilafat has been re-established.


Holy Quran tells Prophethood is highest spiritual bounty, it is possible to be a subservient-to-Prophet Muhammad by following him (s.a.w.), it is unique to him:

004-070.png


Translation: [4:70]And whoso obeys Allah and this Messenger of His shall be among those on whom Allah has bestowed His blessings, namely, the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs, and the Righteous. And excellent companions are these.

5VC0845.jpg

https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=536&region=E1&CR=EN,E2&CR=EN,E2



While by following other prophets, subservient-prophethood was not possible:

057-020a.png

057-020b.png


Translation [57:20] And those who believe in Allah and His Messengers and they are the Truthful and the Witnesses in the sight of their Lord, they will have their reward and their light. But as for those who disbelieve and reject Our Signs, these are the inmates of Hell.


D=
And Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. used the words "ESA nabiullah i.e. Jesus Prophet of Allah" in long Hadith of Sahih-Muslim regarding second coming.



قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ “‏ فَإِنِّي آخِرُ الأَنْبِيَاءِ وَإِنَّ مَسْجِدِي آخِرُ الْمَسَاجِدِ ‏”
Holy Prophet (s.a.w.): I am the last of the Prophets and my mosque is the last of the mosques.
Ref:Sahih Muslim
Obviously mosques building is not stopped.
It simply means no prophet can come who can abrogate Holy Prophet's teaching.
Details:http://www.alislam.org/books/invitation/prelim.html#L15
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/books/invitation/prelim.html#L15



E=
Holy Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) warned Muslims about time when:
== There will be nothing left of knowledge.
== People will make the ignorant their leaders and will seek guidance from them in matters of religion. These leaders will issue fatwas without any knowledge. They will themselves be misguided and will lead others astray.
Ref: Mishkat, Kitab ul-‘Ilm



== nothing left of Islam except its name.
== and there will be nothing left of the Holy Qur’an except its words [meaning the Holy Qur’an would not be understood and followed].
== the mosques of that age will apparently be full of people, but will be empty of righteousness.
== their ulema will be the worst creatures under the heaven. Discord will rise from them and will come right back to them. [That is, these ulema will be the source of all evils.]
Ref: (al-Baihaqi as quoted in al-Mishkat Kitab-ul ‘Ilm, chapter 3, p. 38 and Kanzul ‘Ummal, chapter 6, p. 43)


F=
The
Solution:
[Holy Quran ch62:v3] ‘He it is Who has raised among the Unlettered people a Messenger from among themselves who recites unto them His verses, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and wisdom, although they had been, before, in manifest misguidance;

[ch62:v4]’And among others from among them, who have not yet joined them. He is the Mighty, the Wise.’


ABOUT THE VERSE (62:4)

The Companion Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him) said:
One day we were sitting with Holy Prophet when Surah Jumua was revealed. I enquired from the Holy Prophet, “Who are the people to whom the words,
“And among others who have not yet joined them” refer?” Salman, the Persian was sitting among us. Upon my repeated asking him the same question the Holy Prophet put his hand on Salman and said, “If faith were to go up to the Pleiades, a man from these would surely find it.
Ref: Bukhari



In other sayings, according to Ahmadiyya understanding, this promised reformer is mentioned as Promised Messiah - the Imam Mahdi. [plz read more in Ahmadiyya DIR in this forum ]


G=
and Holy Prophet also prophesied about re-emergence Khilafat:
Holy Prophet s.a.w. said [gist]:

a-- Khilafat on the precept of Prophethood after him,

b-- then two eras of kingships with severity would come and

c-- then again khilafat on the precept of Prophethood would be established.

Then he did not say anything.

[Gist Ref: Narrator Companion Hudhiafah r.a. , Musnad Ahmad, Hadith]


Thus (c) above is obvious Khilafat of Promised Messiah:


The Khilafat is a promise to pious people:
and
works of Khilafat are
:
[Holy Quran 24:56] Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will surely make them Successors in the earth, as He made Successors from among those who were before them; and that He will surely establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them; and that He will surely give them in exchange security and peace after their fear: They will worship Me,and they will not associate anything with Me. Then whoso is ungrateful after that, they will be the rebellious.

[24:57] And observe Prayer and give the Zakat and obey the Messenger, that you may be shown mercy.


Result:
The promised by Allah and Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) solution to problems of Muslims and their revival is only and only through getting connected with Promised Messiah Mahdi and his Khilafat, which continues by the grace of Allah the Exalted.


H=
More in alislam.org, mta.tv (both official sites)
and here in RF: Ahmadiyya DIR

I=
Heavenly Sign
https://www.alislam.org/topics/eclipses/response-to-mcnaughton.html


J=
One can always seek Allah's direct guidance in this regard that one have heard or read such grand reformer has come, O Allah tell me the what is the truth.


Good wishes to all.
 
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DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
Related Resource:
Some distinctive feature of Teachers from God:


1=According to all ordinary standards the Founders were men of slender means. They had no power or prestige. Yet they addressed themselves to the great as well as the small and in due course they and their followers continued to rise...

2=All Founders of religions have been persons highly honoured and valued for the purity of their lives even by those who later, on the announcement of their claims, became their enemies. It is inconceivable that those who did not lie about men, began suddenly to lie about God.


3=The Founders of religions did not possess those powers and accomplishments which ordinarily make for successful leadership. They knew little or nothing of the arts or culture of their time. Yet what each taught turned out to be something in advance of his time, something pertinent and seasonable


4=Founders of religions taught, we find that it has always been contrary to all contemporary trends. If this teaching had been in line with the tendencies of their times, it could be said that these Teachers only gave expression to those tendencies. Instead, what they taught was very different from anything they found current. A terrible controversy ensued and it seemed as though the country had been set ablaze. Yet those who chose to deny and controvert the teaching were ultimately themselves compelled to submit to it. This also proves that these Teachers were not a product of their times, but were Teachers, Reformers and Prophets in the sense in which they claimed to be.

Based on page 10 ++ @ http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/muslims-only-the-true-islam-islam-reformed.182049/
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
@DawudTalut

A great aspect of Islam, which cannot be denied, is Jihad in the meaning of war. It is through the wars against the Romans and the Persians that Islam spread so far, so quick and was accepted so much (not through force but through it's tolerance of diversity etc).

Mirza changed the meaning of Jihad to mean only a struggle through peaceful purposes. Moreover, a Khilafah and a Khalif cannot in any way be bound by the laws of England or the US or anyone else other than those of Allah, but the Ahmadi Khilafah and Khalif are bound by the laws of England. If you disagree then do you also disagree with the wars of our Prophet and the 4 Khalifs after him to fight against the threat of Rome and Persia? And if a Khilafah is permissible by Islamic law to exist within a land that judges by other than the laws of Islam, would your Khalif issue a punishment such as that of flogging for an unmarried adulterer and adulteress in any part of England?

And lastly, England was facing a lot of opposition from the Muslims of India and those of other countries, so just like it needed someone from the inside to weaken the Ottoman empire (Khilafah) during the rise of Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab, the founder of Wahabism/Salafism who deviated from the teachings of Islam, so too it supported Mirza Ghulam because he pretended to be Imam Mahdi by twisting the meanings of many verses and Hadith and by declaring that Jihad (war) is not the Islamic way.

Muhammed, salallahu alayhi wa salam, has warned that there will be false prophets after him as well as false claims made about the emergence of Imam Mahdi. Moreover, Imam Mahdi is a descendant of Prophet Muhammed and thus an Arab, Mirza Ghulam was not an Arab or have Arab roots. And the way of the Rightly Guided Khalif's was to not shy away from Jihad (war) so if Mirza was a continuation of the Rightly Guided Khalif's then his version of Islam is completely different to that of Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali radiallahu anhum.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
@DawudTalut
A great aspect of Islam, which cannot be denied, is Jihad in the meaning of war. It is through the wars against the Romans and the Persians that Islam spread so far, so quick and was accepted so much (not through force but through it's tolerance of diversity etc).
Mirza changed the meaning of Jihad to mean only a struggle through peaceful purposes. Moreover, a Khilafah and a Khalif cannot in any way be bound by the laws of England or the US or anyone else other than those of Allah, but the Ahmadi Khilafah and Khalif are bound by the laws of England. If you disagree then do you also disagree with the wars of our Prophet and the 4 Khalifs after him to fight against the threat of Rome and Persia? And if a Khilafah is permissible by Islamic law to exist within a land that judges by other than the laws of Islam, would your Khalif issue a punishment such as that of flogging for an unmarried adulterer and adulteress in any part of England?
And lastly, England was facing a lot of opposition from the Muslims of India and those of other countries, so just like it needed someone from the inside to weaken the Ottoman empire (Khilafah) during the rise of Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab, the founder of Wahabism/Salafism who deviated from the teachings of Islam, so too it supported Mirza Ghulam because he pretended to be Imam Mahdi by twisting the meanings of many verses and Hadith and by declaring that Jihad (war) is not the Islamic way.
Muhammed, salallahu alayhi wa salam, has warned that there will be false prophets after him as well as false claims made about the emergence of Imam Mahdi. Moreover, Imam Mahdi is a descendant of Prophet Muhammed and thus an Arab, Mirza Ghulam was not an Arab or have Arab roots. And the way of the Rightly Guided Khalif's was to not shy away from Jihad (war) so if Mirza was a continuation of the Rightly Guided Khalif's then his version of Islam is completely different to that of Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali radiallahu anhum.
Thanks and regards
 

Pastek

Sunni muslim
I don't know enought about the Ahmadi muslims to answer.

Bonus questions:
Do potential respondents agree that the Ahmadiyya (sect represents) true Islam?
Do potential respondents agree that the Ahmadiyya follow in Muhammad's footsteps?
Do potential respondents agree that the Islam has been reformed into the Ahmadiyya sect?

1- I think they are, even if we disagree about some things like their other prophet.
2- Probably, i agree most of time with Dawud Talout
3- Probably

Ps : i'm not a big fan of El Azhar, many people who studied there said it should be reformed and they teached many non sense things.
 

Useless2015

Active Member
No. Reforming Islaam is reforming the Words of Allah swt. Allah perfected our religion when Muhammed saw was still alive.




This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favors upon you, and have chosen for you, Islam as your religion.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
No. Reforming Islaam is reforming the Words of Allah swt. Allah perfected our religion when Muhammed saw was still alive.
Yet Muhammad prophesied for the coming of a divine*-holy- man (Mujaddid or re-newer of religion) on the turn (head) of every century and Imam-Mahdi and Issa from amongst his followers at the end. Please
Regards

*divine
5.heavenly; celestial:the divine kingdom.
6.extremely good; unusually lovely:
He has the most divine tenor voice.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/divine
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I am an Ahmadiyya Muslim and AGREE that the Ahmadiyya sect represents a reformed true Islam.
In Ahmadiyya not only Islam's true and real face is showing its brilliance but in it the truthful religions of Buddha, Krishna,Zoroaster,Moses, Jesus ,Socrates and Muhammad have blossomed, in fact with the advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 it is time of spring on religion. The of advent Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has provided a new face to Religion, a face of revelation, rationality, knowledge and truth. Ahmadiyya is accepting religion, heart, soul and love, based on bright signs in the sky and earth. It is new yet firmly attached with the human past or it is human past re---formed or re---freshed anew. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is both Imam Mahdi and Messiah or Issa, two titles in one person, as prophesied by Muhammad who was to come in the End Days as his successor and caliph.
Regards
 
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Useless2015

Active Member
Yet Muhammad prophesied for the coming of a divine-holy- man (Mujaddid or re-newer of religion) on the turn (head) of every century and Imam-Mahdi and Issa from amongst his followers at the end. Please
Regards

First of all, there is no divine being besides Allah swt and the most important task of the Mehdi is Jihaad. Not drinking tea with english men and getting money for it.

Also the Mehdi comes from the family of Muhammed saw. Not from India.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
First of all, there is no divine being besides Allah swt and the most important task of the Mehdi is Jihaad. Not drinking tea with english men and getting money for it.
Also the Mehdi comes from the family of Muhammed saw. Not from India.
I used it in the sense of a spiritual person, appointed as Imam Mahdi and Messiah by God:

5.heavenly; celestial:the divine kingdom.
6.extremely good; unusually lovely:
He has the most divine tenor voice.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/divine
Regards
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
I am an Ahmadiyya Muslim and AGREE that the Ahmadiyya sect represents a reformed true Islam.
In Ahmadiyya not only Islam's true and real face is showing its brilliance but in it the truthful religions of Buddha, Krishna,Zoroaster,Moses, Jesus ,Socrates and Muhammad have blossomed, in fact with the advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 it is time of spring on religion. The of advent Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has provided a new face to Religion, a face of revelation, rationality, knowledge and truth. Ahmadiyya is accepting religion, heart, soul and love, based on bright signs in the sky and earth. It is new yet firmly attached with the human past or it is human past re---formed or re---freshed anew. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is both Imam Mahdi and Messiah or Issa, two titles in one person, as prophesied by Muhammad who was to come in the End Days as his successor and caliph.
Regards

So Ahmadis believe in something like the trinity. A two in one package, like the Christians three in one sort of thing.

There is no hadith that says Imam Mahdi and Prophet Isa are the same person. They have always been spoken of as two different people. And Mirza Ghulam is not Arab. Prophet Isa is also meant to fight Ad-Dajjal. Did Mirza Ghulam fight Ad-Dajjal???

Imam Mahdi will rule for 7 years. Did Mirza Ghulam rule for 7 years or was it more.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
If I may, I'm very familiar with the Sunni view on this issue, and to keep things short, Sunni Islam considers Ahmadiyya Islam to be based on the claims of a false prophet, as Mirza Ghulam Ahmed's claim to prophecy is, according to Sunni scholars, clearly contradicted by this Qur'anic verse:

Qur'an 33:40 said:
Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.

(Source.)

Our Sunni Muslim members are free to correct me if I'm wrong.
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
If I may, I'm very familiar with the Sunni view on this issue, and to keep things short, Sunni Islam considers Ahmadiyya Islam to be based on the claims of a false prophet, as Mirza Ghulam Ahmed's claim to prophecy is, according to Sunni scholars, clearly contradicted by this Qur'anic verse:

Qur'an 33:40 said:
Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.

(Source.)

Our Sunni Muslim members are free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Peace be on you.
Ahmadiyya-Muslim Understanding of the verse, you quoted (It is 33:41 due to counting of first verse In the name of Allah the Gracious, the Merciful as number 1)

5VC2434.jpg


Please read from, onward:
http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=2125&region=E1&CR=EN,E2&CR=EN,E2
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/quran/tafseer/?page=2125&region=E1&CR=EN,E2&CR=EN,E2

It is sad that in the weak state of religious practices, various people began to call each other Kafir [disbeliever] and it leads to further chaos.

Accordingly to
The Last Prophet with Last Shariah,
The Leader of all Prophets,
The Best of all Prophets,
The Founder of Islam,

More details surrounding the issue @
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Verdicts-of-Disbelief-Against-Ahmadiyya-Founder.pdf
 
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DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
....
There is no hadith that says Imam Mahdi and Prophet Isa are the same person. ........
Peace be on you:

""Most traditions speak of Isaas (Jesus) and Al-Mahdi (the Guided Imam) as two different persons. But there is one prominent exception. Ibn-e-Majah—one of the six authentic books of tradition—creates a strong impression that the two Promised Reformers would in fact be one person, only holding two different titles. The exact words of the tradition run as follows:

Arabic_Page674.gif

There would be no Mahdi other than Isa (Jesus).""

(Sunan Ibn-e-Majah. Kitabul-Fitan)

Ref:https://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_7_section_1.html


Related resource:
What was the need for Imam Mahdi and why should Imam Mahdi be acceptable to us, when the Holy Quran is complete; the traditions are there and the contents of these books are final?
@ https://www.alislam.org/library/links/QA_mahdi.html
 
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