Muslims the least educated in the world?

[MD]

I'm a fan of accurate problem definitions. I don't think all Muslims are literalists. I think maybe 1/3 of them are very conservative, and Islamic conservatism is a big problem.

90% of the Sunni muslims I have met in my life are literalists. 90% of the literalists believe the hadiths are pretty accurate. It's much greater than 1/3.

 

[outhouse]

I think maybe 1/3 of them are very conservative, and Islamic conservatism is a big problem.

I think 1/3 is very extreme, yes.


I have had muslims say, they are not following fanaticism. But every one stated they believe in adam, eve, Abraham, moses, even after being show that history shows they never existed as written.

The fact the cannot see the blatant plagiarism is mind boggling to me.


So yes it is my opinion they are all following fanaticism and fundamentalism as a requirement, no different then any YEC, yet YEC are much less violent and typically more educated, even if it be biased hypocritical education.

 

[Chev Chelios]

If it isn't due to culture, then why do you think a Muslim in Syria isn't the same as a Muslim in Saudi Arabia and a Muslim in Turkey.



All Muslim countries were under the Islamic rule for hundreds of years, Saudi Arabia isn't an exception.



Why ?
Do you know a hadith that says women shouldn't drive and should travel only with a male.

I don't trust all the hadith to be correct, but regarding that women have less brain than men is a scientific fact.

Men have bigger brains than women, research reveals - Science - News - The Independent



No, i ain't biased and you don't know better than me about the Islamic countries.

Muslims in Malaysia are the same as Iran, the same as in Turkey, the same as in Egypt, but there are differences due to culture and doctrine.

For example FGM is widespread in Egypt that some girls died due to ignorance and religion is Acquitted from such acts.


Women can ask for separation from men easily but men can't divorce women without losing money according to the contract between them.

I'm not an expert in marriage laws, you can search for such laws which isn't that simple to be discussed here.



And i find it despicable that you like to see women in bikini.


What if she wants to wear sexy knickers ?
I guess you may accept your wife to go jogging wearing a sexy knickers or sexy bikini.



No, it isn't, but it is the truth, women football games isn't successful.
Prove me wrong

First – the hadith clearly says women are “deficient in mind” but there are other translations which say women are “deficient in intelligence”. If you read the hadith it is clear they are not referring to the size of a woman’s brain but her lack of innate intelligence. You keep basing your arguments on technicalities and I keep telling you not to do that. You go on to suggest that you dismiss ‘some’ hadith anyway. More technicalities and more convienience. Regardless - this hadith is Sahih Bukari, which is your best, and I do not see how you can legitimately deem some Sahih hadith from this collection to be authentic and some not. That is beyond any credibility – dismiss the lot or accept all of it.

Also - from our debate you have justified Saudi Arabia’s banning of women playing athletics for their country because, well, because no-one wants to watch female sport as it is boring. How Islamic (and no – I do not have to prove you wrong about it being boring – that is absurd and is not the point we are talking about – we are talking about women’s freedom for heavens sake....but.... Women’s athletics is very exciting and very big here in the West just to clarify).

You have also supported the apartheid like status of women in S.A., which sees them having to swim in separate swimming pools and cover their entire face and body. You see it as all justified because me wishing to see women in bikinis is wrong, that ‘some’ women don’t mind wearing the face veil whilst me having a problem with this forced enslavement is equated with me wishing to see women walking around in their knickers.

I am having a hard time following this logic that says that just because I do not want to see women be de-personalised I, by definition, am therefore happy to see them walk around in their underwear. No. I believe both examples you give are opposite sides of the same extreme scale. Women should not be forced to cover their face and they should not be forced or allowed to walk around in public in knickers and a bra. Please do not speculate about what my views are – just ask. However, I feel that you support the forcing of women’s identity to be completely erased is truly disturbing. I understand (but disagree) with the view that women should be able to ‘choose’ to cover their face but am astonished anyone would try and legitimise its mandation.

You also say Saudi Arabia 'ssocial structure is a result of culture and not religion – I argue very strongly that Saudi culture was shaped by the religion – the two are mutually exclusive. You say if it was all about religion then why are Turkish Moslems so different to Syrian Moslems who are different to S.A Moslems. Well, first Syria has been a dictatorship so it isn't difficult to understand why the country may look a bit different to Saudi and we all know that Turkey took a uniquely different route to most Moslem majority countries – exceptions do not make rules my friend. Turkey is also ever so slowly sliding into a more Islamic theocracy anyway I do hope you realise.

However, I take issue with this anyway because on a personal level, having met Moslems from all 3 countries I actually didn’t find so much difference in views between any of them. All view Israel as evil, the West as anti-Islam and have patriarchal views etc etc and if Syria was released from dictatorial rule I am not so sure it will take a turn in a direction, culturally speaking, which is remarkably different to S.A. anyway. So – please, what are these remarkable differences that you are talking about?

Having lived in a Moslem majority country and having travelled throughout many others I have noticed a remarkable homogeneity amongst all of them. In short – there is much characteristics shared amongst Moslems around the world however your point that Islam hasn’t shaped Saudi culture is just clearly illogical and more than a bit false - so stop throwing out out of date red herrings.

Oh - and you do need to read up on how difficult it is for women to get divorced in S.A. by the way.

 

[Shad]

I said there is no verse in the quran that prevent women from driving cars and i make it clear to you that women fought in battles with men, then you was stubborn to dismiss my reply due to your fanaticism.

Your reply was stupid as you say that if you only follow the quran then how you can pray, your reply is due to your weakness and pointless argument, then i asked you for one hadith that can be a reason to prevent woman from driving, then your response was more than stupid by mentioning the hadith that women's mind is less than men.

Do you want to say that women aren't allowed to drive because of this hadith ?
What about women working in Saudi Arabia as doctors.

Your argument is childish one, i wonder if you are old enough for a serious argument.

You defended the view rather than opposing it outright. A mind is cognitive faculties like memory, thinking, judgment, perception, processing of information, creativity, ideas, concepts. It is a philosophical concept of self or I. The brain is the nervous system. It processes information of senses and controls various functions of our bodies we are not even aware of. If the mind is solely the product of the brain you just refuted the concept of God. If God has a mind then God has a physical brain therefore a physical body thus is limited.

You made a stupid sexist comment in public and made yourself look like a fool by your own ignorance. You are also comparing a bunch of youtube videos to a hadith. Anyone can make a Youtube video. Hadiths are part of Islamic theology which goes through a process of verification and authenticity. Vastly different concepts here. I know there is no verse in the Quran about women driving. You could of left the point at this. However you did not you went on to defend the hadith. You tried to justify the hadith and did so in an incredibly stupid manner putting Islam and yourself into a sexist corner. You should of stopped when you were ahead. This again just proves you are an ignorant person. Rather than just rejecting the Hadith you defended it and did so poorly. Your buried yourself with you own ignorant comments and made yourself look foolish. You make Islam and Muslims look bad. You made yourself and Islam look sexist. Congratulation.

You also confused my comments with someone else. I never talked about prayer nor tried to justify anything with a hadith or quran verse. I strictly went after your defensive argument regarding hadith. Read the last few pages again since you obvious get confused regarding who you are talking to and who said what.

 

[Shad]

I specifically questioned the source, went to the trouble of translating a Danish newspaper article to prove it had been misrepresented by WikIslam, and posted another aeticle by the same Danish newspaper (again translated) to show the very different perspective said newspaper actually had.

I further made the point that I personally have no issue with wiki references but its on the referencer to check source if they want to maintain credibility.

To outhouse's credit, he was fine with all that. But regardless, not true that 'no one took the opening to question the site's sources.

I missed your post then. However I find it sad that two atheists, you and I, point out issues with the site but none of the Muslims here bothered.

 

[Shad]

I found this source about my country


Education in Algeria is free and officially compulsory for Algerians up to age 16, but actual enrollment falls far short of 100 percent.[1] Enrollment drops off sharply from primary to secondary school.[1] In fact, only about half the eligible population is enrolled in secondary school, which consists of two three-year cycles beginning at age 12.[1] In addition, Algeria has: 34 Universities, 13 University Centers, 21 National Superior Institute, 8 Preparatory Institutes.[1]
The primary language of school instruction is the Arabic language|Arabic], but Berber-language instruction has been permitted since 2003, in part to ease reliance on foreign teachers but also in response to complaints about Arabization.[1] Due to Algeria's French colonial past, French is the first foreign language taught in all schools and is often the medium of instruction in post-secondary programs as well as private schools. Most educated Algerians are in turn bilingual in both Arabic and French.
As of 2008, Algeria's literacy rate is 69–70 percent, higher than those of Morocco and Egypt but subpar by international standards.[1] The breakdown by gender is 79 percent for males and 61 percent for females.[1] A lag persists for women despite progress since independence in 1962. Education consumes one-quarter of the national budget.[1] Algeria faces a shortage of teachers as a result of the doubling in the number of eligible children and young adults in the last 12 years.[1]

Algeria still bares the scars of colonialism. It takes time and resources to build an education system from the scraps of French infrastructure. If one looks back at American education it was not government funded for over a century in many areas. Many post-secondary schools were based on social status rather than ability hence Ivy League schools. This started changing over the last century with public universities which provided funding for students rather than the student's providing funds themselves. Many nations have had a period of stability which enables such systems to form and become icons. Algeria will one day become just such a nation if it remains stable.

 

[Shad]

First – the hadith clearly says women are “deficient in mind” but there are other translations which say women are “deficient in intelligence”. If you read the hadith it is clear they are not referring to the size of a woman’s brain but her lack of innate intelligence. You keep basing your arguments on technicalities and I keep telling you not to do that. You go on to suggest that you dismiss ‘some’ hadith anyway. More technicalities and more convienience. Regardless - this hadith is Sahih Bukari, which is your best, and I do not see how you can legitimately deem some Sahih hadith from this collection to be authentic and some not. That is beyond any credibility – dismiss the lot or accept all of it.

Also - from our debate you have justified Saudi Arabia’s banning of women playing athletics for their country because, well, because no-one wants to watch female sport as it is boring. How Islamic (and no – I do not have to prove you wrong about it being boring – that is absurd and is not the point we are talking about – we are talking about women’s freedom for heavens sake....but.... Women’s athletics is very exciting and very big here in the West just to clarify).

You have also supported the apartheid like status of women in S.A., which sees them having to swim in separate swimming pools and cover their entire face and body. You see it as all justified because me wishing to see women in bikinis is wrong, that ‘some’ women don’t mind wearing the face veil whilst me having a problem with this forced enslavement is equated with me wishing to see women walking around in their knickers.

I am having a hard time following this logic that says that just because I do not want to see women be de-personalised I, by definition, am therefore happy to see them walk around in their underwear. No. I believe both examples you give are opposite sides of the same extreme scale. Women should not be forced to cover their face and they should not be forced or allowed to walk around in public in knickers and a bra. Please do not speculate about what my views are – just ask. However, I feel that you support the forcing of women’s identity to be completely erased is truly disturbing. I understand (but disagree) with the view that women should be able to ‘choose’ to cover their face but am astonished anyone would try and legitimise its mandation.

You also say Saudi Arabia 'ssocial structure is a result of culture and not religion – I argue very strongly that Saudi culture was shaped by the religion – the two are mutually exclusive. You say if it was all about religion then why are Turkish Moslems so different to Syrian Moslems who are different to S.A Moslems. Well, first Syria has been a dictatorship so it isn't difficult to understand why the country may look a bit different to Saudi and we all know that Turkey took a uniquely different route to most Moslem majority countries – exceptions do not make rules my friend. Turkey is also ever so slowly sliding into a more Islamic theocracy anyway I do hope you realise.

However, I take issue with this anyway because on a personal level, having met Moslems from all 3 countries I actually didn’t find so much difference in views between any of them. All view Israel as evil, the West as anti-Islam and have patriarchal views etc etc and if Syria was released from dictatorial rule I am not so sure it will take a turn in a direction, culturally speaking, which is remarkably different to S.A. anyway. So – please, what are these remarkable differences that you are talking about?

Having lived in a Moslem majority country and having travelled throughout many others I have noticed a remarkable homogeneity amongst all of them. In short – there is much characteristics shared amongst Moslems around the world however your point that Islam hasn’t shaped Saudi culture is just clearly illogical and more than a bit false - so stop throwing out out of date red herrings.

Oh - and you do need to read up on how difficult it is for women to get divorced in S.A. by the way.

One can reject hadith. After all it is just oral tradition which is unreliable made 2-4 centuries after the fact.

KSA is firmly based on Wahhabism which is a sect of Sunni Islam which itself is not that old. There were other schools of thought in Islam like Mu'tazili which is based on Greek philosophy and rationalism. Islam is not nearly monolithic as many believe.

 

[FearGod]

Football is only one sport.
Do you count Serena Williams as unsuccessful?

I am more than happy to disprove your point here if you want to try and hold to it.
Incidentally, why should 'interest' drive whether they're alliwed to play anyway?

I play basketball for fun and fitness, and at this point we get about a dozen people watching us. Should I be prohibited from playing?

I said women games aren't successful compared to men,that is my opinion and some others, does that mean that i agree or disagree for women to play, i did never say so and if i did show me where.
Men

 

[FearGod]

First – the hadith clearly says women are “deficient in mind” but there are other translations which say women are “deficient in intelligence”. If you read the hadith it is clear they are not referring to the size of a woman’s brain but her lack of innate intelligence. You keep basing your arguments on technicalities and I keep telling you not to do that. You go on to suggest that you dismiss ‘some’ hadith anyway. More technicalities and more convienience. Regardless - this hadith is Sahih Bukari, which is your best, and I do not see how you can legitimately deem some Sahih hadith from this collection to be authentic and some not. That is beyond any credibility – dismiss the lot or accept all of it.

Muslims have different views,so you can't ask me which hadith i should believe regardless of who wrote the hadith, Bukhari to me is just a writer and an author.

Also - from our debate you have justified Saudi Arabia’s banning of women playing athletics for their country because, well, because no-one wants to watch female sport as it is boring. How Islamic (and no – I do not have to prove you wrong about it being boring – that is absurd and is not the point we are talking about – we are talking about women’s freedom for heavens sake....but.... Women’s athletics is very exciting and very big here in the West just to clarify).

Speaking about myself i found it boring, i didn't speak about whether they have to play or not based on my opinion about such games.

I see no problem if some women want to play games and religion doesn't prevent them from doing so.

You have also supported the apartheid like status of women in S.A., which sees them having to swim in separate swimming pools and cover their entire face and body. You see it as all justified because me wishing to see women in bikinis is wrong, that ‘some’ women don’t mind wearing the face veil whilst me having a problem with this forced enslavement is equated with me wishing to see women walking around in their knickers.

Women in SA and even in other ME countries don't accept men to see them swimming semi naked, so may i ask you what the problem with a special swimming pools for women, why is it that big issue to you? i showed you that in Japan they made a special carriages in metro for women only so they'll be comfortable from men's harassment.

I am having a hard time following this logic that says that just because I do not want to see women be de-personalised I, by definition, am therefore happy to see them walk around in their underwear. No. I believe both examples you give are opposite sides of the same extreme scale. Women should not be forced to cover their face and they should not be forced or allowed to walk around in public in knickers and a bra.

Please do not speculate about what my views are – just ask. However, I feel that you support the forcing of women’s identity to be completely erased is truly disturbing. I understand (but disagree) with the view that women should be able to ‘choose’ to cover their face but am astonished anyone would try and legitimise its mandation

Based in your opinion that women should wear what they want then why not wearing sexy knickers if that will be their choice.

Actually women asking for walking naked and they protested for having their rights in doing so.

Did you ever hear about FEMEN ?

You also say Saudi Arabia 'ssocial structure is a result of culture and not religion – I argue very strongly that Saudi culture was shaped by the religion – the two are mutually exclusive. You say if it was all about religion then why are Turkish Moslems so different to Syrian Moslems who are different to S.A Moslems. Well, first Syria has been a dictatorship so it isn't difficult to understand why the country may look a bit different to Saudi and we all know that Turkey took a uniquely different route to most Moslem majority countries – exceptions do not make rules my friend. Turkey is also ever so slowly sliding into a more Islamic theocracy anyway I do hope you realise.

If you think that all Muslim countries are the same, then that is absurd.
You're absolutely wrong, Muslims have different cultures that differ from one country to another.

However, I take issue with this anyway because on a personal level, having met Moslems from all 3 countries I actually didn’t find so much difference in views between any of them. All view Israel as evil, the West as anti-Islam and have patriarchal views etc etc and if Syria was released from dictatorial rule I am not so sure it will take a turn in a direction, culturally speaking, which is remarkably different to S.A. anyway. So – please, what are these remarkable differences that you are talking about?

Add me to your poll, i see Israel as a terrorist country too.

Having lived in a Moslem majority country and having travelled throughout many others I have noticed a remarkable homogeneity amongst all of them. In short – there is much characteristics shared amongst Moslems around the world however your point that Islam hasn’t shaped Saudi culture is just clearly illogical and more than a bit false - so stop throwing out out of date red herrings.

That isn't an opinion, but it is a fact that Muslims aren't the same from one country to another, you can't paint people with such broad stroke.

Oh - and you do need to read up on how difficult it is for women to get divorced in S.A. by the way.

Yes it is hard for both because of the contract.

Woman if asked for divorce then she'll lose her rights and man if divorce he has to pay her "her rights".

As i said it isn't that easy as you think of it, i know more than you do,there is special courts for marriage issues only.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I said women games aren't successful compared to men,that is my opinion and some others, does that mean that i agree or disagree for women to play, i did never say so and if i did show me where.
Men

I'm quite aware of what you said.
In case I'm taking you out of context, the original question and answer was as follows;

Women cannot represent their country in athletics/sport in Saudi Arabia

I don't think any one is interesting in watching women playing football, it is usually boring and not interesting even to women themselves.

Upon further questioning on this, you offered the following.

'No, it isn't, but it is the truth, women football games isn't successful.
Prove me wrong.'

You responded to questioning about bans on women's sports not by stating that you have no issues with women playing sports, and not by stating that such bans are not due to Islam, but are cultural, both of which were options.

You said nothing about 'compared to men' but whatever. I'm not especially interested in juvenile word games or people that dance around instead of answer in a straightforward fashion.

Simple fact is that 'successful' might indicate successful in promoting physical and mental health in women. Did you consider that?

As for the article you linked, it makes some interesting points, but it's not supportive at all of whatever argument you think you're making, to be honest. I wonder if you read it in it's entirety, or just googled for a headline?

I'll breakdown a couple of it's points for any onlookers who haven't read it.

In discussing comments by Gilles Simon that women's tennis was 'actually more interesting than women's tennis' (emphasis mine)

What Simon said was ill-considered, impolitic, and uncouth, but his conclusion that men’s tennis is more interesting is justified. The irony of this flap is that Simon’s comments could motivate a reform of the women’s game that would catapult it to the heights of the men’s game, if not beyond.

Why are men's game more interesting?

The reason why men’s matches are, in fact, more interesting than women’s matches doesn’t have to do with the quality of play, which is subjective. Rather, it is that best-of-five-set matches, which only the men play in the all-important Grand Slams (Australian Open, French Open, Wimbledon, and U.S. Open), are intrinsically more interesting than best-of-three-set matches.

So what should we do? (emphasis mine)

There is fortunately a simple way to end this battle of the sexes once and for all: women should play best-of-five sets. The best-of-three-set match should be tossed aside as a relic of a bygone era in which women were seen as incapable of the physical exertion of men.

But making women play five sets is unfair, right? They are not as strong as men, and there are good reasons for them only playing 3 sets. Surely. Right?

Wimbledon’s Victorian-era precedent did not prevent the U.S. women’s singles championships from being best-of-five sets between 1891 and 1901. However, in 1902 the United States Lawn Tennis Association, led by all-male officers, decided amid protests from the leading female players of the day that best-of-five was too strenuous for women. The women’s U.S. Open and the other Grand Slams have been best-of-three ever since.

Bah!
I don't care if you agree that women's tennis is as good as men's to watch. By ANY measure, women's tennis is a successful sport.
Netball is extremely successful in Australia and New Zealand.
As is a bunch of women running around a pitch having fun with no-one watching them.

You defend Islam from accusations of patriarchy by making blatantly sexist statements before eventually stating that you have no issue with women playing representative sport since it is not contrary to Islam. So you're just sexist then?

 

[paarsurrey]

90% of the Sunni muslims I have met in my life are literalists. 90% of the literalists believe the hadiths are pretty accurate. It's much greater than 1/3.

Religion is not seen in majority/minority basis, it is seen in terms of truthfulness.

Sunni Muslims equally believe that Quran is the prefect Book.

It is the context of a verse of Quran that decides whether a verse is to be taken in literal/symbolic/metaphoric etc terms.

Hadith was collected 250/300 years after Muhammad and hence did not exist in his time. Hadith also is not necessarily narrated in exact words spoken by Muhammad and fails to provide the exact context of the events. It is for this that if it differs with Quran and cannot be interpreted in such a way that it agrees with Quran, then it is rejected and not accepted.

The above about Hadith is only a corollary of the belief that Quran is the prefect book.

Regards

 

[FearGod]

I'm quite aware of what you said.
In case I'm taking you out of context, the original question and answer was as follows;



Upon further questioning on this, you offered the following.

'No, it isn't, but it is the truth, women football games isn't successful.
Prove me wrong.'

You responded to questioning about bans on women's sports not by stating that you have no issues with women playing sports, and not by stating that such bans are not due to Islam, but are cultural, both of which were options.

You said nothing about 'compared to men' but whatever. I'm not especially interested in juvenile word games or people that dance around instead of answer in a straightforward fashion.

Simple fact is that 'successful' might indicate successful in promoting physical and mental health in women. Did you consider that?

As for the article you linked, it makes some interesting points, but it's not supportive at all of whatever argument you think you're making, to be honest. I wonder if you read it in it's entirety, or just googled for a headline?

I'll breakdown a couple of it's points for any onlookers who haven't read it.

In discussing comments by Gilles Simon that women's tennis was 'actually more interesting than women's tennis' (emphasis mine)

Why are men's game more interesting?

So what should we do? (emphasis mine)

But making women play five sets is unfair, right? They are not as strong as men, and there are good reasons for them only playing 3 sets. Surely. Right?


Bah!
I don't care if you agree that women's tennis is as good as men's to watch. By ANY measure, women's tennis is a successful sport.
Netball is extremely successful in Australia and New Zealand.
As is a bunch of women running around a pitch having fun with no-one watching them.

You defend Islam from accusations of patriarchy by making blatantly sexist statements before eventually stating that you have no issue with women playing representative sport since it is not contrary to Islam. So you're just sexist then?

I don't know why some are angry from the other opinion.

I don't care if women want to play or not neither Islam as a religion, but that is my opinion about women sports as many others, you may disagree with me, you are free to do so as i.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't know why some are angry from the other opinion.

I don't care if women want to play or not neither Islam as a religion, but that is my opinion about women sports as many others, you may disagree with me, you are free to do so as i.

well...you are free to believe in what you want. That's right.
But you should accept that things are going to change. All over the world women feel free to wear sexy and provoking clothes, because they enjoy being watched.

And all Muslim women in Europe will do the same. We Europeans will convince them to wear what they want, I can promise you that. And it is very probable that this will happen in Islamic countries too.
so you should be ready to avoid delusions and accept that as a fact.

 

[FearGod]

well...you are free to believe in what you want. That's right.
But you should accept that things are going to change. All over the world women feel free to wear sexy and provoking clothes, because they enjoy being watched.

And all Muslim women in Europe will do the same. We Europeans will convince them to wear what they want, I can promise you that. And it is very probable that this will happen in Islamic countries too.
so you should be ready to avoid delusions and accept that as a fact.

In my country women are free to wear what they want, the quran advises women to wear a decent cloth and it isn't an order or a must.

 

[FearGod]

You defended the view rather than opposing it outright. A mind is cognitive faculties like memory, thinking, judgment, perception, processing of information, creativity, ideas, concepts. It is a philosophical concept of self or I. The brain is the nervous system. It processes information of senses and controls various functions of our bodies we are not even aware of. If the mind is solely the product of the brain you just refuted the concept of God. If God has a mind then God has a physical brain therefore a physical body thus is limited.

Your explanation is a philosophical one indeed.

The mind isn't the soul as you try to make it, even a child knows that mind is in the brain.

Do you think mind exists without brain ? how it works ?

Who told you that God doesn't have a physical body ? Can you tell us how God looks like ?

Didn't you realize yet how stupid is your answers which are a silly ones and you are presenting them as if a mere facts.

You made a stupid sexist comment in public and made yourself look like a fool by your own ignorance. You are also comparing a bunch of youtube videos to a hadith. Anyone can make a Youtube video. Hadiths are part of Islamic theology which goes through a process of verification and authenticity. Vastly different concepts here. I know there is no verse in the Quran about women driving. You could of left the point at this. However you did not you went on to defend the hadith. You tried to justify the hadith and did so in an incredibly stupid manner putting Islam and yourself into a sexist corner. You should of stopped when you were ahead. This again just proves you are an ignorant person. Rather than just rejecting the Hadith you defended it and did so poorly. Your buried yourself with you own ignorant comments and made yourself look foolish. You make Islam and Muslims look bad. You made yourself and Islam look sexist. Congratulation.

I'm talking about facts whereas you are presenting stupid ideas of your own.

Tell me how many women scientists and inventors compared to men.
Compare the number of men to women in your government and keep giving silly excuses as you used to.

https://www.american.edu/spa/wpi/upload/2012-Men-Rule-Report-web.pdf

You also confused my comments with someone else. I never talked about prayer nor tried to justify anything with a hadith or quran verse. I strictly went after your defensive argument regarding hadith. Read the last few pages again since you obvious get confused regarding who you are talking to and who said what.

I'm confused because both of you have the same mind, i mean the same thoughts.

With facts we can prove the hadith to be wrong, but that is how creation goes, IOW it isn't an insult if Monkeys were created less intelligent than humans, it isn't an insult as well if men were created stronger than women, yes you may feel sad and want all to be equal, so you and the dog to be the same as God's creation, but facts are facts, we have to accept it as it is, you may realize then what is the meaning of submission.

 

[1robin]

In my country women are free to wear what they want, the quran advises women to wear a decent cloth and it isn't an order or a must.

Muslims sure think it is. In Iran there are etiquette police who not only insist a cloth be worn but a cloth be worn to the exact dimensions and in the exact location they suggest. I have seen videos of women who tried desperately to follow whatever directions they were given but just could not satisfy their Nazi like tormentors. After just a minute or tow the cops show up and drag them of to prison. One I saw the women wanted desperately to comply but no effort was enough. They drug her kicking and screaming for blocks across the pavement. If only I had a cruise missile when needed.

 

[FearGod]

Muslims sure think it is. In Iran there are etiquette police who not only insist a cloth be worn but a cloth be worn to the exact dimensions and in the exact location they suggest. I have seen videos of women who tried desperately to follow whatever directions they were given but just could not satisfy their Nazi like tormentors. After just a minute or tow the cops show up and drag them of to prison. One I saw the women wanted desperately to comply but no effort was enough. They drug her kicking and screaming for blocks across the pavement. If only I had a cruise missile when needed.

The same thing with the Pharisees in Jesus time they were doing awful things in the name of religion and Jesus fought them, such as stoning and the Sabbath.

 

[MD]

Religion is not seen in majority/minority basis, it is seen in terms of truthfulness.

Sunni Muslims equally believe that Quran is the prefect Book.

It is the context of a verse of Quran that decides whether a verse is to be taken in literal/symbolic/metaphoric etc terms.

Hadith was collected 250/300 years after Muhammad and hence did not exist in his time. Hadith also is not necessarily narrated in exact words spoken by Muhammad and fails to provide the exact context of the events. It is for this that if it differs with Quran and cannot be interpreted in such a way that it agrees with Quran, then it is rejected and not accepted.

The above about Hadith is only a corollary of the belief that Quran is the prefect book.

Regards

Define truth? Objective evidence? Subjective experience?

If it's the former, then the Quran is objectively wrong since it is scientifically inaccurate and a lot of the people and events which exist in the Quran (like Adam and Eve, Noah's great flood, etc) never happened.

If it's the latter, then the Quran is also subjective since we each have our own subjective truth and as such isn't absolute.

It doesn't matter if Hadith was written at so and so time and all the other details, in the end there is 0 objective proof that the Quran is divine and that Mohammed was visited by God. Zero. It's subjective.

 

[outhouse]

If muslims cannot admit the truth, they will never achieve any ground in the fight for better education.

As long as they keep the fanaticism required, that every muslim here is giving us perfect examples of, they have little hope for improvement.


Has EVERY muslim in this thread fought the truth?


Or tried to find a way to fix the issue? Not one.

 

[Godobeyer]

If muslims cannot admit the truth, they will never achieve any ground in the fight for better education.

As long as they keep the fanaticism required, that every muslim here is giving us perfect examples of, they have little hope for improvement.


Has EVERY muslim in this thread fought the truth?


Or tried to find a way to fix the issue? Not one.

Muslims the least educated in the world?

the truth is that you posted a thread as question , and you answsered it in every reply :clap

and your reject the other answsers (in some cases you accused non-muslim RF member by terrorism) ,because he disagree with your answser .