Muslims the least educated in the world?

[Monk Of Reason]

I agree and I am disappointed in the lack of moral separation we see in Christian demographics but I do not agree it is absent. But I was not making a point about the general arguments for God's existence. I was illustrating why violence is a double edged statistic concerning faith.

Not just violence.

I expect the average Christian to be little better than the average person, that is what I find (actually I expect a a little better on average but stats are close), the stat that makes the real difference in the exceptional record of exceptional Christians. I know of no similar demographics that has ever displayed as mush selfless Charity as Christianity buy with 2 billion of us a few ten thousand moral giants won't move stats too much. BTW I am being generous. I have seen stats that go from no average difference to massive difference in almost every category. The latter given by a [professor of pure mathematics at Princeton. I am just being lazy and not looking them up this go around.

I fully diagree with your opinion but I guessed I would. But I do know of the study. However its skewed because the "donation to charity" also includes donating to Church funded events. We we removed Chruch based fund rasiers I would imagine it would be a much different number.

Secondly the same study (in the integrated study if we are in fact thinking of the same one) shown that secular individuals would be more likely to volunteer their time than the religious group.

Now this one I can give little credence. Based on what did you conclude this? My life has been a walking testament to this being perfectly wrong and most Christians became Christians in some measure because of that same experience.

Think of the dark ages. Or later even. The early colonilization. The witch trials. The Witch trials I do blame n Christianity. I can think of no other time in history where such persecution was as rampant or as religiously motivated. But this aside my argument is that the morality of a middle ages Christian should be superior to my current secular morality if god were truely the motivator. However I think most would agree that my anti-slavery, anti-sexism, anti-rape, ect ect ect sexular morals would be superior to the average way of thinking in those days.

However I don't blame the Christianity for that. I think that, rather, it has no real part. There may be some influences but when it comes down to it you need advancements in society not just religion to make a difference.

 

[idav]

I expect the average Christian to be little better than the average person, that is what I find (actually I expect a a little better on average but stats are close),

Oddly enough I often find that the church goers are the first to claim elitism and show to be the biggest hypocrites. At least atheists are not claiming to be self righteous. And I am talking things I have seen in my own family, kicking gay sons out of the house, doing exorcisms cause a female cousin is lesbian. It is plain insanity out here. And I feel I am a good person but somehow my family is some sort of black sheep cause we don't go to church and the rest of the self righteous family members have no vices.

 

[idav]

Also I gotta mention my brother, he didn't make it and that is the saddest thing for me, I don't think he felt he had much of a choice cause he would be chastised for his lifestyle. I did everything I could to let him know that I am open-minded but it wasn't likely me that was the problem. He was only 42 may he rest in peace.

So now you know a little more of my motivation.

 

[1robin]

Not just violence.

Are you suggesting my post was about more than violence or that you have other double edged swords concerning theology?

I fully diagree with your opinion but I guessed I would. But I do know of the study. However its skewed because the "donation to charity" also includes donating to Church funded events. We we removed Chruch based fund rasiers I would imagine it would be a much different number.

I was not referring to any one study and since I never told you of a single one how do you know which I was referring to. Why in the world would you remove church based fundraisers from charity statistics?

Secondly the same study (in the integrated study if we are in fact thinking of the same one) shown that secular individuals would be more likely to volunteer their time than the religious group.

What study, I named none, but just indicated they exist? It certainly was not my Princeton guy because charity was either not included or was a minor point included with a dozen or more.

Think of the dark ages. Or later even. The early colonilization. The witch trials. The Witch trials I do blame n Christianity. I can think of no other time in history where such persecution was as rampant or as religiously motivated. But this aside my argument is that the morality of a middle ages Christian should be superior to my current secular morality if god were truely the motivator. However I think most would agree that my anti-slavery, anti-sexism, anti-rape, ect ect ect sexular morals would be superior to the average way of thinking in those days.

I will take the witch trials, the Canaanites, the Midionites (though that wasn't Christians at all, in fact I will grant every OT violent death), the crusades, the inquisitions 400 years, even the military deaths of the conquests, heck you can even throw in the KKK's entire history. They barely match light weight atheists like Pol Pot's single lifetime, they don't get close to Stalin's, and they are not in the ballpark with abortion in just the last 50 years. Though a death contest is strange sort of sport.

However I don't blame the Christianity for that. I think that, rather, it has no real part. There may be some influences but when it comes down to it you need advancements in society not just religion to make a difference.

You can't find a single verse in the NT that justifies violence for any reason. Yet I will lay anything Christians did at their feet and there is simply no comparison. I forgot a couple, the 100 years war (that was about aristocratic land claims, there was protestants and Catholics on both sides), and maybe even some of the American and Indian problems, it still won't equalize just abortion alone. And some of the Christians wars had good reasons to be in them.

 

[1robin]

Oddly enough I often find that the church goers are the first to claim elitism and show to be the biggest hypocrites.

I don't find this one relevant but I won't argue. Your experience alone is just not a big enough sample size.

At least atheists are not claiming to be self righteous.

Christians are the ultimate non-self righteous people. Our faith is founded on the absence of it and the necessity of God's righteousness. Righteousness is not even a coherent issue in atheistic scenarios.

And I am talking things I have seen in my own family, kicking gay sons out of the house, doing exorcisms cause a female cousin is lesbian. It is plain insanity out here. And I feel I am a good person but somehow my family is some sort of black sheep cause we don't go to church and the rest of the self righteous family members have no vices.

Good grief, no wonder you do not like Christianity, your family isn't the Westbrook Baptist church by any chance is it?

 

[1robin]

Also I gotta mention my brother, he didn't make it and that is the saddest thing for me, I don't think he felt he had much of a choice cause he would be chastised for his lifestyle. I did everything I could to let him know that I am open-minded but it wasn't likely me that was the problem. He was only 42 may he rest in peace.

So now you know a little more of my motivation.

What do you mean he didn't make it? Was the judgment of your family enough to cause suicide? If so your case is in need of more expert handling than I fear I am capable of. I was once a prayer counselor but this is unprecedented for me. If you do not mind can you give a little more detail here? I can certainly sympathize with your motivation but that does not make it justified for the use your applying it to.

 

[idav]

Good grief, no wonder you do not like Christianity, your family isn't the Westbrook Baptist church by any chance is it?

No not even, just the mainstream stuff, a lof of them left catholicism for the more evangelical type denominations.

 

[1robin]

No not even, just the mainstream stuff, a lof of them left catholicism for the more evangelical type denominations.

The sum total of just what you stated is not the mainstream of anything except fanatical lunacy. Even if homosexuality is a sin we are to love the sinner and I have never heard it be a result of demon possession.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Are you suggesting my post was about more than violence or that you have other double edged swords concerning theology?

That theology isn't a good indicator of morality and widespread social morality of any kind not just violence based.

I was not referring to any one study and since I never told you of a single one how do you know which I was referring to. Why in the world would you remove church based fundraisers from charity statistics?

Because it would skew results. If I included buying Dawn soap because part of the profits go to Charity it would change the overal numbers. Same situation.

What study, I named none, but just indicated they exist? It certainly was not my Princeton guy because charity was either not included or was a minor point included with a dozen or more.

If you aren't quoting a study then by all means don't quote one. I was bringing up that there was a study done along the same lines of what you seemed to be saying. I thought you had been discussing the study. If not then it matters little.

I will take the witch trials, the Canaanites, the Midionites (though that wasn't Christians at all, in fact I will grant every OT violent death), the crusades, the inquisitions 400 years, even the military deaths of the conquests, heck you can even throw in the KKK's entire history. They barely match light weight atheists like Pol Pot's single lifetime, they don't get close to Stalin's, and they are not in the ballpark with abortion in just the last 50 years. Though a death contest is strange sort of sport.

I think you are suddenly bringing two different things to the table without seeparting them correctly.
1) Stalin did not kill in the name of "atheism". He killed for the state and for the sake of his political power. There were plenty of religious individuals who also did the same thing. Not in the same numbers but primarily because they did not have acess to such powerful forces at their command.

2) I CAN link it to christianity. If you wish to say that nothing bad ever done by Christians were "not relaly christians" then I don't accept that and will call it a cheap cop out called "No true scotsman".

You can't find a single verse in the NT that justifies violence for any reason. Yet I will lay anything Christians did at their feet and there is simply no comparison. I forgot a couple, the 100 years war (that was about aristocratic land claims, there was protestants and Catholics on both sides), and maybe even some of the American and Indian problems, it still won't equalize just abortion alone. And some of the Christians wars had good reasons to be in them.

Your opinion is that abortion is murder. I do no agree. So we would have to establish those before you can arbitrarily use them in "killing numbers". Also this isn't "Atheist" vs "Christianity". This is me stating that religion doesn't cause moral behavior. Maybe in a few cases it can shift the morality of a single person on a personal level but as a whole, society doesn't seem to benifit (today at least) from religious ideologies in how they keep their morality.

 

[idav]

What do you mean he didn't make it? Was the judgment of your family enough to cause suicide? If so your case is in need of more expert handling than I fear I am capable of. I was once a prayer counselor but this is unprecedented for me. If you do not mind can you give a little more detail here? I can certainly sympathize with your motivation but that does not make it justified for the use your applying it to.

He alienated himself from all of us to the point we didn't know his health was deteriorating quickly and pain meds ended up taking out some vital organs. He was away in the east coast thousands of miles from any family. Even when I talked with Jr. he didn't even realize until he was given more hints from our brother and JR is well aware how family reacts or would react, very tragic. Happened earlier this month, we all feel horrible that he felt he couldn't reach out. We feel times are changing though but maybe not quick enough.

I am dealing fine, I try to always keep an optimistic look but it certainly is hard sometimes. I believe in god and thats good enough for me. I have a distaste for organized dogma.

 

[1robin]

That theology isn't a good indicator of morality and widespread social morality of any kind not just violence based.

You stated this is in the opposite way from the way I did so let me get my eyes uncrossed. Do you mean that the veracity of a particular theological system is not indicated by these issues are that it can't be?

Because it would skew results. If I included buying Dawn soap because part of the profits go to Charity it would change the overal numbers. Same situation.

I do not think it is. Giving in any church I have been in is a voluntary act of charity. Why are you considering church activities as non charitable? We are not buying anything except charity and the capacity to do more. That one has exceptions but as a rule is true.

If you aren't quoting a study then by all means don't quote one. I was bringing up that there was a study done along the same lines of what you seemed to be saying. I thought you had been discussing the study. If not then it matters little.

I didn't. I mentioned a general claim and one source. I have a general opinion based on many studies. Some not as differential than I would like and some too optimistic to credit with reliability. I have resolved a position as close to he middle of these two as I can. If you want me to put some real numbers on it I can try.

I think you are suddenly bringing two different things to the table without seeparting them correctly.
1) Stalin did not kill in the name of "atheism". He killed for the state and for the sake of his political power. There were plenty of religious individuals who also did the same thing. Not in the same numbers but primarily because they did not have acess to such powerful forces at their command.

Half the stuff I accepted the blame for occurred before a single Christian even existed. I see your not so generous. Stalin killed in the name of many things. However if you can't grant that wiping out a few million genetic anomalies would be easier than wiping out a few million children of God which have actual value then I won't bother with the rest. Anyone truly consistent with atheism would have much wider to justify what he did than a theist.

2) I CAN link it to christianity. If you wish to say that nothing bad ever done by Christians were "not relaly christians" then I don't accept that and will call it a cheap cop out called "No true scotsman".

Fallacies are far over used crutches I rarely see one that even potentially applies. There are in fact true Christians if the text of it's founders claims are granted relevance. If not then nothing has any. Few claims are so often emphatically insisted upon as this one. However I was the one adopting every biblical war I could recall plus some. Your the one that is making the but it was in the name of X defense.

I simply wanted you to see the absurd disparity even given I took all these events into account because you cannot find a single verse in the NT that even potentially justifies them. An attempt to link them to Christians is not equivalent to linking them to Christian doctrine. I however was overlooking this slight technicality.

Your opinion is that abortion is murder. I do no agree. So we would have to establish those before you can arbitrarily use them in "killing numbers". Also this isn't "Atheist" vs "Christianity". This is me stating that religion doesn't cause moral behavior. Maybe in a few cases it can shift the morality of a single person on a personal level but as a whole, society doesn't seem to benifit (today at least) from religious ideologies in how they keep their morality.

It is bizarre your looing for any technical way out of accounting for these events yet accusing me of having done so despite I accepted all kinds of deeds not done with a single verse in the NT to justify them.

I get the impression your not comfortable in this contest and I don't blame you. I will let you reset the debate.

 

[idav]

The sum total of just what you stated is not the mainstream of anything except fanatical lunacy. Even if homosexuality is a sin we are to love the sinner and I have never heard it be a result of demon possession.

I suppose your correct it isn't mainstream but here in the States they are the majority. I agree it is about love and that exorcism thing really through me for a loop. From the very family member who taught me the "Our Father" when I was like 5, well it might have been more his wife, hard to say.

 

[1robin]

I suppose your correct it isn't mainstream but here in the States they are the majority. I agree it is about love and that exorcism thing really through me for a loop. From the very family member who taught me the "Our Father" when I was like 5, well it might have been more his wife, hard to say.

Let me give you some important information before we get back to yelling through the keyboard.

1. There is no one Jesus criticized more that those who have the form of faith but not the heart. He literally hated the pretenses of Godliness without at least some genuine form. He only spoke to one group harshly and they were the corrupt priestly class. Don't let your family be the reason you reject God. They do not sound Godly. BTW I am assuming your being accurate and honest because I have no reason to doubt that and I am making suggestions based only on what claims you gave me and my experience.

2. I have a dissimilar past that produced the same effect. I was raised in good but stuffy and stiff churches. My mother was the only one who had born again faith. And talk about reasons not to have faith. She was adopted by a dirt poor but great family to pick cotton after being left in a parking lot by two alcoholic parents. When I was twelve she was diagnosed with cancer. It was one of the worse scenarios imaginably. Every hopeful event was followed by absolute tragedy. For 5 years the sicker she got the more I resented a God I did not really have faith in. When she finally died I literally resolved to resent the God that was not there. In my case a bizarre event occurred. I instantly met some of the best Christians you can imagine existing. I have known few that loving and dedicated. However I was still in hate mode. My resentment finally produced an alcohol problem, ruined any decent relationship I had, and other assorted disasters that hit me so hard I started to lose confidence in my own ability to correctly reason. I finally decided I was going to get rid of theology forever after meeting another good Christian friend. Sink or swim I was going all in. I forgot all the arguments you guys use and I used to use as well and just started from scratch. The more I read the more I wanted to. To cut this short this finally culminated in a supernatural experience. I have never felt contentment that strong, love that sweet, or forgiveness that real. Habits I could not break for years went away without a trace, my entire character changed over night (though I am still far from perfect), people kept asking what was different and I had no language to convey it. Anyway that is actually where my faith comes from, these argument I make with you guys is just icing on the cake. In one respect my case was worse. You were let down by (maybe) Christians, I was let down by God.

3. So before we get back to contending I want to say I would help in any way I can but it sounds like your issues with the faith would tax my abilities, but let me know if I can help.



Okay enough with the making of the nice. Next.

 

[1robin]

I suppose your correct it isn't mainstream but here in the States they are the majority. I agree it is about love and that exorcism thing really through me for a loop. From the very family member who taught me the "Our Father" when I was like 5, well it might have been more his wife, hard to say.

Not in my state nor any state I have visited and I have been to most. The practice of exorcism is so rare for example, that even the experts (the Catholics) have precious few of them. I was once fascinated by demonology from a position of faith and so I am not just a laymen in the area. Even the experts rule out every other possible cause first, only then can just a petition be sent to a committee for considering. I have known of secular medical scholars who said they were less skeptical of possession than the priests.

 

[idav]

Let me give you some important information before we get back to yelling through the keyboard.

1. There is no one Jesus criticized more that those who have the form of faith but not the heart. He literally hated the pretenses of Godliness without at least some genuine form. He only spoke to one group harshly and they were the corrupt priestly class. Don't let your family be the reason you reject God. They do not sound Godly. BTW I am assuming your being accurate and honest because I have no reason to doubt that and I am making suggestions based only on what claims you gave me and my experience.

I am in agreement and I haven't thrown out god with the bath water.

2. I have a dissimilar past that produced the same effect. I was raised in good but stuffy and stiff churches. My mother was the only one who had born again faith. And talk about reasons not to have faith. She was adopted by a dirt poor but great family to pick cotton after being left in a parking lot by two alcoholic parents. When I was twelve she was diagnosed with cancer. It was one of the worse scenarios imaginably. Every hopeful event was followed by absolute tragedy. For 5 years the sicker she got the more I resented a God I did not really have faith in. When she finally died I literally resolved to resent the God that was not there. In my case a bizarre event occurred. I instantly met some of the best Christians you can imagine existing. I have known few that loving and dedicated. However I was still in hate mode. My resentment finally produced an alcohol problem, ruined any decent relationship I had, and other assorted disasters that hit me so hard I started to lose confidence in my own ability to correctly reason. I finally decided I was going to get rid of theology forever after meeting another good Christian friend. Sink or swim I was going all in. I forgot all the arguments you guys use and I used to use as well and just started from scratch. The more I read the more I wanted to. To cut this short this finally culminated in a supernatural experience. I have never felt contentment that strong, love that sweet, or forgiveness that real. Habits I could not break for years went away without a trace, my entire character changed over night (though I am still far from perfect), people kept asking what was different and I had no language to convey it. Anyway that is actually where my faith comes from, these argument I make with you guys is just icing on the cake. In one respect my case was worse. You were let down by (maybe) Christians, I was let down by God.

Thanks for sharing. I had to go from scratch as well and it completely redefined how I look at god and I quickly realized hardly anyone has a clue. I have always been very religious more than any of my family in my generation ever since I was very young.

3. So before we get back to contending I want to say I would help in any way I can but it sounds like your issues with the faith would tax my abilities, but let me know if I can help.

I appreciate that.

 

[outhouse]

I look at god and I quickly realized hardly anyone has a clue.

.

Speak for yourself.

It Is only a matter of education and knowledge.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

You stated this is in the opposite way from the way I did so let me get my eyes uncrossed. Do you mean that the veracity of a particular theological system is not indicated by these issues are that it can't be?

That the religion of any specific region is not the primary factor for how moral the society is. If I am in America and I have a better chance of not being raped if I were a 12 year old girl than in West Africa its not because of my nations popular religion.

I do not think it is. Giving in any church I have been in is a voluntary act of charity. Why are you considering church activities as non charitable? We are not buying anything except charity and the capacity to do more. That one has exceptions but as a rule is true.

Not that they are non-charitable but that there is the obligatory religious function behind them. Not purely out of moral reasoning. But it does still cound and I wasn't stating that we shouldn't include them at all but just that if we were to look at non-religious based charities it paints a more accuate description of thier selflessness.

I didn't. I mentioned a general claim and one source. I have a general opinion based on many studies. Some not as differential than I would like and some too optimistic to credit with reliability. I have resolved a position as close to he middle of these two as I can. If you want me to put some real numbers on it I can try.

Go for it but I don't do it on my account.

Half the stuff I accepted the blame for occurred before a single Christian even existed. I see your not so generous. Stalin killed in the name of many things. However if you can't grant that wiping out a few million genetic anomalies would be easier than wiping out a few million children of God which have actual value then I won't bother with the rest. Anyone truly consistent with atheism would have much wider to justify what he did than a theist.

When exactly was the first Christian then?

And not necessarily. He would have no defense for his actions while many religious based individuals somehow find a way to have their religion somehow grant them this right to do so.

Fallacies are far over used crutches I rarely see one that even potentially applies. There are in fact true Christians if the text of it's founders claims are granted relevance. If not then nothing has any. Few claims are so often emphatically insisted upon as this one. However I was the one adopting every biblical war I could recall plus some. Your the one that is making the but it was in the name of X defense.

You lost me at the end of your paragraph. Can you re-word it?

I simply wanted you to see the absurd disparity even given I took all these events into account because you cannot find a single verse in the NT that even potentially justifies them. An attempt to link them to Christians is not equivalent to linking them to Christian doctrine. I however was overlooking this slight technicality.

"thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". Granted its not NT but it is still a Christian scripture.

It is bizarre your looing for any technical way out of accounting for these events yet accusing me of having done so despite I accepted all kinds of deeds not done with a single verse in the NT to justify them.

I get the impression your not comfortable in this contest and I don't blame you. I will let you reset the debate.

To be fair to me I have never set up a Christianity vs Atheism debate. But if you want a Secular Humanism vs Christianity debate I'm all for it. And I will win. Atheism is simply the lack of a belief. Not the driving force for anything. That is logically impossible.

Though in terms of "technical" loophoes I am in adding any. I want to have an honest discussion here. Have terrible things been done in the name of religion or has religion been used in order to do terrible things? Yes. Christianity included.

Has "Atheism" been used to do terrible things? No. No it has not. One can attempt to make the case that if one were religious then they would have no done that. But I can do the same thing with secular humanism. If only he was a secular humanist then they would not have been okay with doing things.

Do you see how this works? You cannot lable something as being caused by "atheism" which is a non-quality. You can however link actions done while invoking a quality or belief.

However all of this is tangent to the simply point that I was making that religion doesn't seem to have much measerable difference on the morality of anhy given population. Rather education, access to necessities and well established order does.

 

[idav]

Speak for yourself.

It Is only a matter of education and knowledge.

It really surpises me how little general population know about their own religions. Did I say "hardly anyone", thats accurate.

 

[1robin]

I am in agreement and I haven't thrown out god with the bath water.

Thanks for sharing. I had to go from scratch as well and it completely redefined how I look at god and I quickly realized hardly anyone has a clue. I have always been very religious more than any of my family in my generation ever since I was very young.

I appreciate that.

That is fine but I think the best suggestion is look around until you find an obedient and tempered Christian or two and just watch them. You would probably go through a whole bunch of mediocre or even bad ones but great ones are not that uncommon.

What was the topic that you were most recently wrong about anyway? I can't remember. Just kidding but what was the topic.

 

[1robin]

Speak for yourself.

It Is only a matter of education and knowledge.

They help but personal experience is what has made the other two work. You can read about history or doctrine through study but you probably won't find God in a book. He is what makes the letters come alive. I guess that is why Christ claimed to be the living word, convenient. It is the difference between reading about the North pole and being there. This all just clarification, I am making no assumptions about you beyond your post.