Muslims: The testimony of a man who said he heard an angel while alone in a cave

[1robin]

Nice excuses - don't have the time to check all the valid quotes and commentaries I post about the Bible but you still have time to attack Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).

This post concerns Muhammad and Islam not the bible but to make sure there is no missunderstanding.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Killing Men, Women, and Children. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]There are two places in scripture where God ordered specifically all the men, women, and children of another nation to be killed by the Israelites. The passages are as follows:[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Sihon, King of Heshbon [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Then Sihon with all his people came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz. The LORD our God delivered him over to us, and we defeated him with his sons and all his people. So we captured all his cities at that time and utterly destroyed the men, women and children of every city. We left no survivor. (NASB) Deuteronomy 2:32-34 [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Og, King of Bashan [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]We captured all his cities at that time; there was not a city which we did not take from them: sixty cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. All these were cities fortified with high walls, gates and bars, besides a great many unwalled towns. We utterly destroyed them, as we did to Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women and children of every city. (NASB) Deuteronomy 3:4-6 [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]The people who were killed in both passages were of the Amorite nation, and in both cases, they opposed the Israelites. Consequently, God ordered Israel to kill the men, women, and children of the offending cities. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]In the first case, the Israelites came in peace and asked Sihon, King of Heshbon, for permission to pass through his land, but he refused (Deut. 2:26-27). Instead, Sihon and his army went to war against the Israelites. It was then that God enabled the Israelites to destroy them. The Israelites had only wanted to pass through their land. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]In the second situation, the same thing occurs. Og, the king of Bashan, refuses to allow the Israelites to pass through his land and his army goes to war against Israel. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]These men, women, and children were Amorites, but this was not genocide. The Israelites did not kill every man, woman, or child of the Amorites. The Amorites who were killed were those occupying the cities ruled by the two kings who would not allow the Israelites to pass through their lands. The Amorites were still in existence for thousands of years after these battles. This was self-defense. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Conclusion: [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]God will take the life of a person who ultimately has rejected and opposed God or his people with physical harm. He will allow and has on some occasions caused, portions of nations to be killed because they have threatened His people - the Israelites.[/FONT]

Regardless, it is shameful that you are trying to justify God's commanding the killing of innocent children - notice the verse starts with "And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess"

Once again. Not a bible thread, and I have not defended or condemned this specificaly. I made some general claims about war in the old testament. What do your comments in that last statement have to do with anything? I will be happy to answer all similar claims by you but in due time. This seems to be a tactic of distraction. You must really fear actually digging into what the thread was about.

I thought Jesus is God (for you at least). Are they indeed different then ?

Yes they are differnt persons contained withing one being and you already knew this (more diversion). But again this thread isn't about either. I posted comments that were far more relevant to this thread and then moved them because you objected. How about returning the favor.

Again, excuses when you can't provide valid arguments. I have provided enough to a different poster here regarding inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible.

Once again this isn't a bible thread. I prefer to actually cover a point thuroghly instead of spouting out a machine gun load of deflecting comments to avoid the real problems with Islam.

I shall respond there in time. Peace to you as well.

Look forward to it.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Muslims: I read that the Koran was written in the Arabic spoken by the Quraysh tribe living in Mecca, the same tribe that Mohammed belonged to and the same city he lived in. Is this claim true?

 

[1robin]

Muslims: I read that the Koran was written in the Arabic spoken by the Quraysh tribe living in Mecca, the same tribe that Mohammed belonged to and the same city he lived in. Is this claim true?

That is the claim. The Quran says in several places that it is written in pure Arabic but it contains 274 words from other cultures. So the claim is generally true but not in a devinely inspired absolute sort of way.

 

[F0uad]

That is the claim. The Quran says in several places that it is written in pure Arabic but it contains 274 words from other cultures. So the claim is generally true but not in a devinely inspired absolute sort of way.

Serious?

 

[1robin]

Serious?

F0uad you know very well I have given quite a lot of evidence for this in the other thread and your response was basically: (What if this? or What if that?). I thought my saying it was mostly true here was very generous. Your response here as well as in the other thread is insuffecient to show my claim was false.

Theodore Noldeke
Muhammad repeatedly emphasised that the Koran is in Arabic, but he borrowed many foreign terms to express ideas that had no Arabic expression. Sometimes he misused these terms (e.g. the Aramaic 'furquan' meaning 'redemption' is used to mean 'revelation').
The Origins of the Koran
Bolding mine.
He is was a very respected scholar and won the coveted French award: Académie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
for his work on the Quran.

The same info can be found here:
The author : Father Zakaria Boutros
http://www.fatherzakaria.net/books/qaf/pdf/46-Episode.pdf

 

[F0uad]

F0uad you know very well I have given quite a lot of evidence for this in the other thread and your response was basically: (What if this? or What if that?). I thought my saying it was mostly true here was very generous. Your response here as well as in the other thread is insuffecient to show my claim was false.

Theodore Noldeke
Muhammad repeatedly emphasised that the Koran is in Arabic, but he borrowed many foreign terms to express ideas that had no Arabic expression. Sometimes he misused these terms (e.g. the Aramaic 'furquan' meaning 'redemption' is used to mean 'revelation').
The Origins of the Koran
Bolding mine.
He is was a very respected scholar and won the coveted French award: Académie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
for his work on the Quran.

The same info can be found here:
The author : Father Zakaria Boutros
http://www.fatherzakaria.net/books/qaf/pdf/46-Episode.pdf

:sleep: Keep it on the original topic and discuss it there.


The first site website you quoted is a Christian website that rejects Islamic-History that is in favour and only agrees on certain History, without its context that would give you the indication that it disagrees. For example it says:

Modern Muslims assert that the current Koran is identical to that recited by Muhammad. But earlier Muslims were more flexible. 'Uthman, A'isha, and Ibn Ka'b (among others) all insisted that much of the Koran had been lost.

Yet there is no such Hadith or historical evidence there are only hadiths and historical evidence that says the opposite seems dishonest to start with.

Which evidence have you shown Zer0, you haven't shown me they weren't Arabic words.
Anyway i won't reply on this thread but our one-on-one thread.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why are we to believe it was an angel of good as opposed to evil?

I suggest that we use the Bible to recognize a true prophet from a false prophet:

"by their fruits you shall know them" Mat. 7:16


So, let's see frist, what were the fruits of Jesus, who you believe was a True Prophet. Make a list of His fruits, then see if those fruits are seen from Muhammad. If you see the same fruits, you should not have any doubt that he was a true prophet, unless you don't believe in the Words of jesus.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I suggest that we use the Bible to recognize a true prophet from a false prophet:

"by their fruits you shall know them" Mat. 7:16


So, let's see frist, what were the fruits of Jesus, who you believe was a True Prophet. Make a list of His fruits, then see if those fruits are seen from Muhammad. If you see the same fruits, you should not have any doubt that he was a true prophet, unless you don't believe in the Words of jesus.

That's not exactly going to bode well for Mohammed.....at least from a Christian perspective

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That's not exactly going to bode well for Mohammed.....at least from a Christian perspective

I am just curious to see how, if you don't mind.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I am just curious to see how, if you don't mind.

From a Christian perspective he has enticed millions of people to deny the divinity of Jesus. Hence, they will not submit to him in worship. That's the biggest one by far. I'm not interested in debating the personhood of Jesus now. I'm just stating the Christian position. I've got some other questions about his life such as whether or not he was a warlord or just a man on the defensive. The man spent ten years in war. I think his credentials as a man of peace are certainly in question, though I don't expect the Muslims here to agree.

 

[F0uad]

From a Christian perspective he has enticed millions of people to deny the divinity of Jesus. Hence, they will not submit to him in worship. That's the biggest one by far. I'm not interested in debating the personhood of Jesus now. I'm just stating the Christian position. I've got some other questions about his life such as whether or not he was a warlord or just a man on the defensive. The man spent ten years in war. I think his credentials as a man of peace are certainly in question, though I don't expect the Muslims here to agree.

Define warlord is Moses(p) a warlord?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

From a Christian perspective he has enticed millions of people to deny the divinity of Jesus. Hence, they will not submit to him in worship. That's the biggest one by far. I'm not interested in debating the personhood of Jesus now. I'm just stating the Christian position. I've got some other questions about his life such as whether or not he was a warlord or just a man on the defensive. The man spent ten years in war. I think his credentials as a man of peace are certainly in question, though I don't expect the Muslims here to agree.

I would say, Muhammad did not say anything different than the Bible with regards to Jesus's station. Quran calles Jesus the Word, and also says Jesus is God's Spirit.
Although, even in the Bible, you see, Jesus said "Do not say I am good, only God is good" and other things, which has been even a subject of argument among Chritians regarding Jesus station.
With regards to Muhammad's peacefulness, it is part of history, He was kind to Christians. A comunity of Christians in Najrán were under His protection:


"A part of the Najran Treaty between the Prophet Muhammad and the Christians of Najran reads as follows:[6]

"This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.
No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.
No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them.
If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.
Their Churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (of Muslims) is to disobey this covenant till the Last Day (end of the world)."
Christian community of Najran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






It is also part of History that Muhammad was the cause of progress of people. while Europe was in the lowest depths of barbarism, He caused the Arab peoples become superior to the other nations of the earth in learning, in the arts, mathematics, civilization, government and other sciences...

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Define warlord is Moses(p) a warlord?

here's the dictionary definition.

war·lord(wôr

lôrd

)
n. A military commander exercising civil power in a region, whether in nominal allegiance to the national government or in defiance of it.



My biggest questions about his character, besides his claims to prophethood, are regarding the necessity of the battles he fought. Were these unprovoked attacks he conducted? The fact that he waged war for 10 years makes me suspicious that he didn't do everything he could've to be a peacemaker

 

[F0uad]

here's the dictionary definition.

war·lord(wôr

lôrd

)
n. A military commander exercising civil power in a region, whether in nominal allegiance to the national government or in defiance of it.



My biggest questions about his character, besides his claims to prophethood, are regarding the necessity of the battles he fought. Were these unprovoked attacks he conducted? The fact that he waged war for 10 years makes me suspicious that he didn't do everything he could've to be a peacemaker

Maybe you should first read hes live-story based on real history without a biased view. I will give you some brief information:

He made treaties for example with the Jews in Medina but some broke them and attacked him and helped the enemy according to witness testimony. The Pagans from Mecca kept on attacking Medina and Mohammed(saws) over and over and denied access to the Kaba to all muslims for pilgrimage yet all pagans were allowed. Then God ordered Mohammed(saws) to go to Mecca with hes army and he went with 10,000 there was no fight Mohammed(saws) entered the city peacefully. He then said that everyone is save and that he(saws) wouldn't take revenge, since these people killed hes family, hes companions and the innocent people for around 10years he was actually in the right to judge them yet he didn't.


Here are some records that even exist now this one was for the Christians:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0SsRmC6O5k

And This one was for the Samaritan Jews:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfsBfrji0OM&feature=plcp



These are the originals that are stored in the museums that were send to different nations and societies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB5R1a4bSUM&feature=fvwrel

 

[gnostic]

I don't think you quite understand "gnostic"..

The Hadith cited is from Imam Husayn grandson of Prophet Muhammad. So what it means or implies in my view is that there was more than one Adam over the millenia of years.... and that the number of Prophets is therefore probably incalculable..See below:

Husayn, son of Ali, who, addressing Salman, spoke words such as these:

"I was with a thousand Adams, the interval between each and the next Adam was fifty thousand years, and to each one of these I declared the Successorship conferred upon my father."

Another Hadith was attributed to Imam Sadiq:

"Allah has a thousand thousand Adams and a thousand thousand earths".

You're right that I doubt understand.

And even with the new quotes, I still don't understand.

They sound either rhetoric or exaggerated. And your attempt at explanation with the 1st quote, is - in short - inadequate.

Would you care to explain each of the Hadith verses, you've quoted?

 

[arthra]

If you check back ohh a few months ago I was responding to your earlier post:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2873524-post270.html

where you wrote:

I know that the Qur'an don't put any date to who's who, and when Adam was created, but let me use your Hadith's number (124,000 prophets) and the timeline of Adam to the time of Muhammad as example, I will show you how ridiculous this number is.
...

My point?

The number of prophets would not be "ridiculous" if there were a lot of Adams as well as other earths...

 

[F0uad]

Muslims do not belief there were more Adam's(p) at all. The number of prophets is 124,000 since the Quran also says that to each community a prophet was send. For example in the Bible we can also see there were some scribes and communities who had over 300 prophets.

 

[1robin]

:sleep: Keep it on the original topic and discuss it there.

F0uad, c onsider youself unique usually someone telling me to do something means the result will be the opposite. However I like you and believe you have a point and so consider it done.

The first site website you quoted is a Christian website that rejects Islamic-History that is in favour and only agrees on certain History, without its context that would give you the indication that it disagrees. For example it says: Yet there is no such Hadith or historical evidence there are only hadiths and historical evidence that says the opposite seems dishonest to start with.

I find this an insuffecient arguement. By your standards I am reduced to using only Islamic standrads. That's illogical.

Which evidence have you shown Zer0, you haven't shown me they weren't Arabic words.

I gave you the original language that they were created in. What more could you reasonably ask? I notice you are not following your your request of me to stay on the topic.

Anyway i won't reply on this thread but our one-on-one thread.

That is fine I don't think I posted it in response to you anyway. After additional thought how is this subject unrelated to this thread? I will abide by my word and drop it but it does seem very relevant.

 

[F0uad]

I find this an insuffecient arguement. By your standards I am reduced to using only Islamic standrads. That's illogical.

Clearly you didn't get my point, i said the website uses false information as i have shown. Puts hadiths out of there context and clearly doesn't adress the historical context behind a hadith when quoting one.

I gave you the original language that they were created in. What more could you reasonably ask? I notice you are not following your your request of me to stay on the topic.

So where is your proof they weren't in created in Arabic? I asked this around 3times already. (With all respect)

That is fine I don't think I posted it in response to you anyway. After additional thought how is this subject unrelated to this thread? I will abide by my word and drop it but it does seem very relevant.

Making claims without proof or let me say historical proof is flawed. Like i said i will discuss this in our own thread.

 

[arthra]

Muslims do not belief there were more Adam's(p) at all. The number of prophets is 124,000 since the Quran also says that to each community a prophet was send. For example in the Bible we can also see there were some scribes and communities who had over 300 prophets.

Apparently there is a Hadith tradition which you may be interested in

ShiaSisters.net • View topic - Thousand thousand Adams and a thousand thousand earths

Truth is I believe we don't really know the number of the Prophets... The universe is a vast place with many worlds and how many communities on those worlds are there?