My first question

[Transient]

So this is my first post on this forum (aside from my intro).

If one assumes that we are all infinite beings...

- whether it be a Christian belief that we go to heaven/hell or other place
- or a reincarnation cycle where souls (or soul - singular) are recycled
- or a cosmic consciousness situation where we are all individual expressions of a single, divine source
- or other possibility that I haven't considered

From the perspective of Infinity (and the timelessness that that entails), what does the 80 years (if we're lucky) matter on Earth.

For example, the Christian belief is that a soul can spend eternity in hell (or heaven, but hell seems more like a problem to me) for actions that occurred during its extremely brief physical existence where it was influenced by any number or physical, emotional, psychological, etc. effects. From the perspective of eternity, that 80 years should mean nothing considering that infinite truth is withheld during that time.

If we meld into a cosmic consciousness upon shedding our mortal coil, then we become infinite beings with no limitations (as I understand it, but what do I know, I'm mortal). The good and evil that people do on Earth no longer matters to us because physical existence is such a minuscule part of existence. Besides, good and evil is a human invention conjured in a physical brain for a physical existence. Do they even really exist/matter? This may be a whole separate discussion entirely - which I'd be happy to have.

As far a reincarnation is concerned, our actions here matter because here is all that really exists to us. We have to keep coming back here and the good we do in one life adds to the total sum of good done in the universe, which means that the universe is more comfortable for our next incarnation. However, what is evil in one sense is good in another. War, and all the killing that goes with it is an expression of evil, but the ridding of a genocidal, maniacal dictator (or other somesuch) is a greater good. But that dictator may have been preventing an even greater evil that no one will ever know about, and so on...

Good and evil work together, and we, as temporary, limited beings cannot truly judge what is good or evil. So why try? Why does our limited understanding of good and evil and the actions we take on them matter in the scope of an infinite existence?

 

[chinu]

Good and evil work together, and we, as temporary, limited beings cannot truly judge what is good or evil. So why try? Why does our limited understanding of good and evil and the actions we take on them matter in the scope of an infinite existence?

One should not try for good or evil, One should try for path to salvation, the path to salvation is other than Good and evil,

_/\_
Chinu

 

[Transient]

Salvation from what?

 

[chinu]

Salvation from what?

from "Love-Virus".

_/\_
Chinu

 

[Beta]

Sorry to shatter your concept of an infinite existence for man.
The Bible does not teach any such thing .
Man in his deluded and deceived state may teach it but certainly not God.
Unrepentant man is destined to perish in the lake of fire to become ashes under the feet of the Saints who alone will survive a calamitous end to the human creation Mal.4v3.

 

[Transient]

I don't know what love virus is.

Salvation suggests that there is something we judge as being " not good" that we need to be saved from. Why avoid the root of the issue - good and evil?

 

[chinu]

Salvation suggests that there is something we judge as being " not good" that we need to be saved from.

Yes it is, I call this as "Love-virus" in my language.

Why avoid the root of the issue - good and evil?

Because both are "Virus" in True "Love".

I don't know what love virus is.

"Love-virus" means virus in true love.

_/\_
Chinu

 

[Koldo]

Every grain of sand matters.
If we don't differentiate evil from good then we would live in chaos.

Also...

As far a reincarnation is concerned, our actions here matter because here is all that really exists to us. We have to keep coming back here and the good we do in one life adds to the total sum of good done in the universe, which means that the universe is more comfortable for our next incarnation. However, what is evil in one sense is good in another. War, and all the killing that goes with it is an expression of evil, but the ridding of a genocidal, maniacal dictator (or other somesuch) is a greater good. But that dictator may have been preventing an even greater evil that no one will ever know about, and so on...

The universe is more comfortable with our next existence?! :sarcastic
Just because there are different degrees of evil and good it doesn't mean that you should regard lesser evil as good.

 

[chinu]

Every grain of sand matters.
If we don't differentiate evil from good then we would live in chaos.

In this world the person who thinks himself/herself as Master in differentiateing good and evil seems to be living in more chaos.

But this is also true that one has to pass through great chaos, to know what is truth or what in the real is Good or Evil.

Watch the lifes of spritual masters like jesus, muhammed, buddha etc..., Before reaching to the truth, their lifes were full of chaos.

_/\_
Chinu

 

[Wombat]

So this is my first post on this forum (aside from my intro).

For a first post it’s a doozy ;-)
Well done and welcome.

"From the perspective of Infinity (and the timelessness that that entails), what does the 80 years (if we're lucky) matter on Earth."

I would suggest that it is the developing of the very “perspective of Infinity” that matters. Not just as an intellectual idea or appreciation but as a deep and abiding transcendent quality/gnosis. (And no...I am not claiming to have developed or attained such transcendence...far from it ;-)...but I still hold it as an objective)
I believe that the “perspective of Infinity” >is< what “matters on Earth” because it changes the very nature of the 80 so year experience and our conduct within it. If one believes they are going to be around for an infinite period then all suffering that subsequently transpires does so in a different context. Sense of personal injury and illness are diminished in importance/effect, sense of loss of loved ones is decreased, acquisitiveness and possessiveness is decreased.
With the “perspective of Infinity” inevitably comes the recognition of ‘The Mystic Communal’*-We are all in this together/inseparable/interdependent/One.
The “perspective of Infinity” in relation to time drives people to communal sane just as the ‘Total Perspective Vortex’ (proportion) drives people to individual crazy ;-)
[youtube]kSnJl7B_TVs[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSnJl7B_TVs
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
With the “perspective of Infinity” I do not believe that I can suffer any ultimate harm...nor can I achieve harm towards others. There is nothing that can be done to me, in the face of eternity, that will amount to more than a skun knee...no need to wail or rile...no point trying to hurt others.

"For example, the Christian belief is that a soul can spend eternity in hell (or heaven, but hell seems more like a problem to me) for actions that occurred during its extremely brief physical existence where it was influenced by any number or physical, emotional, psychological, etc. effects."

I agree. What if heaven/hell are not a locations or an externally imposed rewards/ punishments...but rather the direct and immediate self generated consequence of having devoted a lifetime to “perspective of Infinity” or not- perspective of exclusive self interest/acquisition in finite timeframe?

"The good and evil that people do on Earth no longer matters to us because physical existence is such a minuscule part of existence."

This I believe to be true in relation to acts done to us...kind acts may have enduring effect upon us but I believe evil acts only “matter” in terms of the potentially enduring consequences of the >intent< of the perpetrator upon the perpetrator. Evil is a negative feedback loop...ultimately its only enduring effect is upon the perp.

"Besides, good and evil is a human invention conjured in a physical brain for a physical existence. Do they even really exist/matter? This may be a whole separate discussion entirely - which I'd be happy to have."

I’m inclined to agree that it warrants a separate discussion. For now I would suggest that by way of analogy (not mine) good and evil might be likened to light and darkness in that the former has ‘substance’ and the latter is mere ‘absence’. Good is knowledge/awareness...bad is ignorance (absence of knowledge/awareness)...evil is wilful ignorance (refusal to know/be aware).

"As far a reincarnation is concerned, our actions here matter because here is all that really exists to us."

I’m going to skip the reincarnation one...I could never work out how/why/to what point I would be sent back to repeat an Earth Grade when I didn’t remember the prior incarnation lessons, tests I failed, body I wore or school I attended. Always seemed like an unfair rigged game to me.

"However, what is evil in one sense is good in another. War, and all the killing that goes with it is an expression of evil, but the ridding of a genocidal, maniacal dictator (or other somesuch) is a greater good."

Yea...I can see/agree with the potential for ‘just war’....I just haven’t seen one lately.
But I’m thinking ‘psychopath/child molester’ and I honestly can’t conceptualise “what is evil in one sense is good in another”.....some things just strike me as evil without redeeming flipside.

"Good and evil work together,"

Hmmm...maybe...sometimes...but not always...

" and we, as temporary, limited beings cannot truly judge what is good or evil."

Perhaps this is as a consequence of my professional baggage (I work with abused kids)...but I’m going to disagree. When I am confronted with a perpetrator of child abuse I (attempt) to not judge the individual but to judge/condemn the behaviour. Most times I can view the perp as damaged/ sick or not fully responsible for their actions.

However...When I am confronted with members of an Agency/Institution or Church/School who ‘knew’ the abuse was transpiring and relocated the perp to protect the Institutions reputation and/or did so again when the perp re offended........no.......that is ‘Wilful Ignorance’= evil.

The conscious, deliberate, considered committing of an evil act.

I can tell myself that ultimately the victim is an eternal band of golden light that cannot be harmed...but I cannot conceptualize those who knew the abuse was transpiring and allowed it to continue as other than engaged in evil.

"So why try? Why does our limited understanding of good and evil and the actions we take on them matter in the scope of an infinite existence?"

For me...in a word... ‘duty’.

If attacked/abused I may choose to turn the other cheek and hold that to be, in most circumstances, the best option.

But if I am witness to an attack or serious abuse I am duty bound/obliged to respond...to at least try to curb or halt the attack.

“why try”?......would require another lengthy post ;-)

Enjoyed your post...hope my rant touched base at some point.
All the best.

 

[Koldo]

In this world the person who thinks himself/herself as Master in differentiateing good and evil seems to be living in more chaos.

But this is also true that one has to pass through great chaos, to know what is truth or what in the real is Good or Evil.

Watch the lifes of spritual masters like jesus, muhammed, buddha etc..., Before reaching to the truth, their lifes were full of chaos.

_/\_
Chinu

I don't consider myself as a master for i am an apprentice, but we have to treat certain things as good or evil ( or rather right and wrong ) to live in a society.

Don't you agree that if we were to live in a society where there is no agreed good or evil we would live in a real chaos?

If there was no definition for good nor evil then someone could simply walk to your home, take all your belongings, kill your family, go away and nothing would happen to him. Now imagine everyone doing the same thing, what would our lives become? A real chaos.

 

[Twig pentagram]

So this is my first post on this forum (aside from my intro).

If one assumes that we are all infinite beings...

- whether it be a Christian belief that we go to heaven/hell or other place
- or a reincarnation cycle where souls (or soul - singular) are recycled
- or a cosmic consciousness situation where we are all individual expressions of a single, divine source
- or other possibility that I haven't considered

From the perspective of Infinity (and the timelessness that that entails), what does the 80 years (if we're lucky) matter on Earth.

For example, the Christian belief is that a soul can spend eternity in hell (or heaven, but hell seems more like a problem to me) for actions that occurred during its extremely brief physical existence where it was influenced by any number or physical, emotional, psychological, etc. effects. From the perspective of eternity, that 80 years should mean nothing considering that infinite truth is withheld during that time.

If we meld into a cosmic consciousness upon shedding our mortal coil, then we become infinite beings with no limitations (as I understand it, but what do I know, I'm mortal). The good and evil that people do on Earth no longer matters to us because physical existence is such a minuscule part of existence. Besides, good and evil is a human invention conjured in a physical brain for a physical existence. Do they even really exist/matter? This may be a whole separate discussion entirely - which I'd be happy to have.

As far a reincarnation is concerned, our actions here matter because here is all that really exists to us. We have to keep coming back here and the good we do in one life adds to the total sum of good done in the universe, which means that the universe is more comfortable for our next incarnation. However, what is evil in one sense is good in another. War, and all the killing that goes with it is an expression of evil, but the ridding of a genocidal, maniacal dictator (or other somesuch) is a greater good. But that dictator may have been preventing an even greater evil that no one will ever know about, and so on...

Good and evil work together, and we, as temporary, limited beings cannot truly judge what is good or evil. So why try? Why does our limited understanding of good and evil and the actions we take on them matter in the scope of an infinite existence?

I often ask myself this question and I always come to the same conclusion. I don't think it matters.

 

[Jeremiah]

Every grain of sand matters.
If we don't differentiate evil from good then we would live in chaos.

Also...



The universe is more comfortable with our next existence?! :sarcastic
Just because there are different degrees of evil and good it doesn't mean that you should regard lesser evil as good.

"Every grain of sand matters."

No, it does not. You can take away a gain of sand from the beach and still have a beach. You can remove a drop of water from the ocean and the ocean will be just fine. You can kill one human out of six billion and human life will continue to go as before.

 

[Jeremiah]

So this is my first post on this forum (aside from my intro).

If one assumes that we are all infinite beings...

- whether it be a Christian belief that we go to heaven/hell or other place
- or a reincarnation cycle where souls (or soul - singular) are recycled
- or a cosmic consciousness situation where we are all individual expressions of a single, divine source
- or other possibility that I haven't considered

From the perspective of Infinity (and the timelessness that that entails), what does the 80 years (if we're lucky) matter on Earth.

For example, the Christian belief is that a soul can spend eternity in hell (or heaven, but hell seems more like a problem to me) for actions that occurred during its extremely brief physical existence where it was influenced by any number or physical, emotional, psychological, etc. effects. From the perspective of eternity, that 80 years should mean nothing considering that infinite truth is withheld during that time.

If we meld into a cosmic consciousness upon shedding our mortal coil, then we become infinite beings with no limitations (as I understand it, but what do I know, I'm mortal). The good and evil that people do on Earth no longer matters to us because physical existence is such a minuscule part of existence. Besides, good and evil is a human invention conjured in a physical brain for a physical existence. Do they even really exist/matter? This may be a whole separate discussion entirely - which I'd be happy to have.

As far a reincarnation is concerned, our actions here matter because here is all that really exists to us. We have to keep coming back here and the good we do in one life adds to the total sum of good done in the universe, which means that the universe is more comfortable for our next incarnation. However, what is evil in one sense is good in another. War, and all the killing that goes with it is an expression of evil, but the ridding of a genocidal, maniacal dictator (or other somesuch) is a greater good. But that dictator may have been preventing an even greater evil that no one will ever know about, and so on...

Good and evil work together, and we, as temporary, limited beings cannot truly judge what is good or evil. So why try? Why does our limited understanding of good and evil and the actions we take on them matter in the scope of an infinite existence?

"Good and evil work together, and we, as temporary, limited beings cannot truly judge what is good or evil."

We are the only one who can judge what is good and evil. I mean I don't see anyone else around here with the capacity to make that distinction. That means it is all up to us to run out lives and mange our society. Doing this means we must come to an understanding on good and evil, even on the little things.

"So why try? Why does our limited understanding of good and evil and the actions we take on them matter in the scope of an infinite existence?"

This has nothing to do with "infinite existence" this has to do with the here and now, and our lives. A moral lawful society is better for everyone, it makes our time here less painful and more productive. But a healthy society is a team effort, that means it should be the duty of each of us to understand good and evil and then to act accordingly.

Since there are no gods here, no spirit guides, no fairies or dragons to tell us what is good and what is evil we have to take the responsibility upon ourselves and do the best we can with what we have.

 

[Caladan]

If one assumes that we are all infinite beings...

Assumptions can be a terrible thing. they can bring a lot of sorrow to people and send them into a loop of chasing the 'spiritual' instead of confronting the basic reality that all things are finite and come to an end.

 

[Koldo]

"Every grain of sand matters."

No, it does not. You can take away a gain of sand from the beach and still have a beach. You can remove a drop of water from the ocean and the ocean will be just fine. You can kill one human out of six billion and human life will continue to go as before.

I wasn't using the analogy as in a beach. I was talking about sand in a box. If we keep taking grains of sand out from the box we may eventually be left with nothing.

 

[BruceDLimber]

[W]hat does the 80 years (if we're lucky) matter on Earth?

For the simple reason that we're all here for a purpose; and indeed, this purpose is twofold!:

· As individuals, to acquire the spiritual virtues we'll need both now and in the Next Life.
· In aggregate, to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization.
And the purpose of religion is to show us HOW to go about these!

The scriptures I endeavor to follow state that there's no such thing as reincarnation, BTW, and go on to explain in detail why not.

[W]e, as temporary, limited beings cannot truly judge what is good or evil.

Fortunately, scriptures make this clear, as well as stating that evil doesn't actually exist except as
a relative lack of good. [Quotes upon request.]

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Jeremiah]

I wasn't using the analogy as in a beach. I was talking about sand in a box. If we keep taking grains of sand out from the box we may eventually be left with nothing.

Sandbox or beach, for an analogy there is not much difference. If you take a single grain of sand out of the box, I didn't think you will notice much of a change. This whole notion that every gain of sand matters is not true, and it is only something us gains of sand tell ourselves so we can feel important. But the entire Earth could blow up and the universe will take no heed, and move on as if nothing happened. In reality we are only important to ourselves.

 

[PolyHedral]

Assumptions can be a terrible thing. they can bring a lot of sorrow to people and send them into a loop of chasing the 'spiritual' instead of confronting the basic reality that all things are finite and come to an end.

Well, not all things. But certainly all human-scale things.

 

[Caladan]

Well, not all things. But certainly all human-scale things.

All things within the realm of the reason of physics.