My Hedonistic Logical Argument

[The Transcended Omniverse]

1.) Perceiving something to be of good value, worth, joy, beauty, inspiration, love, a heavenly experience, and happiness to you can only be an experience for you that has a positive tone. In short, having good value and worth, along with joy, beauty, and happiness in your life is always a positive experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it.

2.) Perceiving something to be of bad value, torment, suffering, a hellish experience, and misery to you can only be an experience for you that has a negative tone. In short, having bad value, along with suffering, misery, and torment in your life is always a negative experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it.

3.) Perceiving something to be of neither good value, worth, bad value, joy, beauty, happiness, suffering, torment, or misery to you can only be an experience for you that has a neutral (mechanistic) tone. In short, having neither good value, worth, nor bad value, along with having no suffering, a hellish experience, a heavenly experience, misery, torment, happiness, or beauty in your life is always a neutral experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it.

4.) Our good moods/feelings (states of well being induced by our brain chemicals/neurotransmitters) are the only experiences that possess the positive tone, our bad moods/feelings are the only experiences that possess the negative tone, and a non feeling experience can only possess a neutral (mechanistic) tone. A non feeling experience actually does possess a positive and negative tone. However, it would be a positive and negative tone that only meets a biological machine's standard. It would be nothing more than a mechanistic positive and negative tone that does not meet the human standard. It would be no different than having a positive and negative charge on a battery versus the positive and negative qualities of our human experience.

Therefore,

Conclusion: Our good moods/feelings are the only things that can give our lives a humanistic quality of good value, worth, joy, beauty, a heavenly experience, and happiness, our bad moods/feelings are the only things that can give our lives bad value, suffering, misery, agony, a hellish experience, and torment, while it is only experiencing neither our good or bad moods/feelings that can bring our lives no value, worth, joy, beauty, suffering, heavenly experience, hellish experience, happiness, love, or misery.

People with a brain defect, brain damage, or low feel-good neurotransmitters due to either drug use, depression, and/or anhedonia are only having positive thoughts that their lives still have good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness to them without their good moods/feelings. But their quality of experience possesses no positive tone to give any real perception of good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness to their lives. In other words, they would not be able to actually see the good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness in themselves, others around them, and in their lives.

You might as well consider the value and joy to be nothing more than terms (words/phrases) in a depressed/anhedonic person's life. Depressed/anhedonic people are only fooling and deluding themselves through these positive terms as well as through positive gestures, acts, and tones of voice in thinking their lives have real good value and worth to them. But, again, their actual experience possesses no positive quality. They might have a little bit of good moods/feelings to some small degree, but that would only offer them a small quality of good value/worth perceived in their lives. Additional delusional factors include conditioning, strength of character, and empathy towards other human beings which would certainly delude an individual into thinking that helping out others, making the best of life, etc. during miserable times would give real good value, worth, and joy to a person's life with no need for any good moods/feelings.

Lastly, to summarize my logical argument, a perceptual experience of good value, worth, joy, beauty, bad value, suffering, torment, and misery without their respective moods/feelings possesses no quality of experience. It is only through feeling good and feeling bad that offers our lives a quality of perceptual experience. Our good moods/feelings are the only experiences that possess a quality to them that give our lives a real perceived quality of good value/worth while our bad moods/feelings are the only experiences that possess a quality to them that give our lives a real perceived quality of bad value. Experiencing no good or bad moods/feelings gives our lives no perceived quality (experience) of good value, bad value, worth, joy, beauty, suffering, or misery.

There might be abstract values such as the idea that it is objectively wrong to harm an innocent person, but such values cannot actually be perceived without their respective moods/feelings. This means that a person who felt good in harming someone innocent cannot see that as a bad thing as long as he/she did not feel bad from that. Again, acknowledging such values means nothing. It is only through our moods/feelings that we can have a real perceptual quality of these values.

When I am traumatized due to some horrible traumatic event in my life, I lose all my good moods/feelings and I have none whatsoever. I have no positive emotional response in me whatsoever. My life possesses no real perceived quality of good value/worth even despite getting help and wanting to feel better. So, even me getting help did not give my life any real perceived quality of good value/worth. That is why I conclude that it is only how we feel that gives our lives a real perceived quality of good and bad value. I just don't agree with this non feeling version of value that society, friends, and family advocate. I also don't agree that any other definition of a good mood/feeling exists either since I think that it is only our feel good chemical/neurotransmitter states which are the good moods/feelings. There is just no way I could ever live the entirety of my life and see any good value/worth living without my good moods/feelings.

 

[shunyadragon]

I will respond to this more, but to begin with you are not considering that we do not live in a vacuum and independently determine what is good bad or neutral. We live in a social and cultural context that most likely evolved for survival of the family and community. What is good, bad and neutral is ultimately relevant to the survival of the species not only humans but all intelligent mammals.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

I will respond to this more, but to begin with you are not considering that we do not live in a vacuum and independently determine what is good bad or neutral. We live in a social and cultural context that most likely evolved for survival of the family and community. What is good, bad and neutral is ultimately relevant to the survival of the species not only humans but all intelligent mammals.

There might be an abstract form of value. For example, it might be objectively wrong to harm someone innocent. However, where my logical argument was getting at is that you cannot actually perceive that as being a horrible thing as long as you did not feel bad from that. You could acknowledge that it is a horrible thing, but there would be no actual humanistic perceptual experience of bad value in your life without your bad moods/feelings.

 

[shunyadragon]

There might be an abstract form of value. For example, it might be objectively wrong to harm someone innocent. However, where my logical argument was getting at is that you cannot actually perceive that as being a horrible thing as long as you did not feel bad from that. You could acknowledge that it is a horrible thing, but there would be no actual humanistic perceptual experience of bad value in your life without your bad moods/feelings.

Your back pedaling some here. Actually, we can and do actually perceive behavior as bad and horrlble, and feel bad, because of social and cultural conditioning to preserve the family and culture within our sense of community. I western culture this is guilt, and in the East it is called saving face.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Your back pedaling some here. Actually, we can and do actually perceive behavior as bad and horrlble, and feel bad, because of social and cultural conditioning to preserve the family and culture within our sense of community. I western culture this is guilt, and in the East it is called saving face.

But that would be nothing more than a biological machine's standard of perceptual bad value. This perceptual experience does not meet the human standard. In order for it to meet the human standard, then it must be through a bad mood/feeling. Otherwise, if you did not feel bad from something and you still acknowledged that said thing or situation as being bad, then this would be a biological machine's definition of perceptual bad value.

 

[shunyadragon]

But that would be nothing more than a biological machine's standard of perceptual bad value.

No it is not a machine's standard? whatever that is. When you use off the wall descriptions you need to define what you mean. First, even though morals, ethics, and values of good and bad have consistent comparisons between societies and cultures they are not mechanistically the same nor determined mechanistically. For the survival of the species this sense of good and bad also exists in other intelligent animals.

This perceptual experience does not meet the human standard. In order for it to meet the human standard, then it must be through a bad mood/feeling. Otherwise, if you did not feel bad from something and you still acknowledged that said thing or situation as being bad, then this would be a biological machine's definition of perceptual bad value.

Again, humans and other higher mammals do not respond like machines. They indeed feel guilt, shame, and feel bad and horrible depending on the degree of goodness or badness, based in social and cultural conditioning, and genetic evolution for survival of the species is a reality which you are ignoring. It is not mechanistically determined that is Orwellian foolishness. .

 

[Desert Snake]

It's an interesting argument, but I think there is a flaw. Usually, hedonism is a negative association of pleasing our baser desires. This does not indicate something that is 'good', necessarily, and the religions that promote hedonism always have this problem, imo.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

No it is not a machine's standard? whatever that is. When you use off the wall descriptions you need to define what you mean. First, even though morals, ethics, and values of good and bad have consistent comparisons between societies and cultures they are not mechanistically the same nor determined mechanistically. For the survival of the species this sense of good and bad also exists in other intelligent animals.



Again, humans and other higher mammals do not respond like machines. They indeed feel guilt, shame, and feel bad and horrible depending on the degree of goodness or badness, based in social and cultural conditioning, and genetic evolution for survival of the species is a reality which you are ignoring. It is not mechanistically determined that is Orwellian foolishness. .

Well, let me just say that a perceptual experience of good value, worth, joy, beauty, bad value, suffering, torment, and misery without their respective moods/feelings possesses no quality of experience. It is only through feeling good and feeling bad that offers our lives a quality of perceptual experience. Our good moods/feelings are the only experiences that possess a quality to them that give our lives a real perceived quality of good value/worth while our bad moods/feelings are the only experiences that possess a quality to them that give our lives a real perceived quality of bad value. Experiencing no good or bad moods/feelings gives our lives no perceived quality (experience) of good value, bad value, worth, joy, beauty, suffering, or misery.

 

[shunyadragon]

Well, let me just say that a perceptual experience of good value, worth, joy, beauty, bad value, suffering, torment, and misery without their respective moods/feelings possesses no quality of experience.

No it is not the case. You are making independent value judgments on what you believe other people feel and believe which does not reflect reality.

It is only through feeling good and feeling bad that offers our lives a quality of perceptual experience. Our good moods/feelings are the only experiences that possess a quality to them that give our lives a real perceived quality of good value/worth while our bad moods/feelings are the only experiences that possess a quality to them that give our lives a real perceived quality of bad value.

Yes, and the evidence indicates that people have good and bad feelings, and neutral ones as well that gives our lives the quality of perceptual experience.

Experiencing no good or bad moods/feelings gives our lives no perceived quality (experience) of good value, bad value, worth, joy, beauty, suffering, or misery.

Despite your assertions this is an awkward assertion, and needs an explanation.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

No it is not the case. You are making independent value judgments on what you believe other people feel and believe which does not reflect reality.



Yes, and the evidence indicates that people have good and bad feelings, and neutral ones as well that gives our lives the quality of perceptual experience.



Despite your assertions this is an awkward assertion, and needs an explanation.

When I am traumatized due to some horrible traumatic event in my life, I lose all my good moods/feelings and I have none whatsoever. My life possesses no real perceived quality of good value/worth even despite getting help and wanting to feel better. So, even me getting help did not give my life any real perceived quality of good value/worth. That is why I conclude that it is only how we feel that gives our lives a real perceived quality of good and bad value. I just don't agree with this non feeling version of value that society, friends, and family advocate. There is just no way I could ever live the entirety of my life and see any good value/worth living like this without my good moods/feelings.

 

[shunyadragon]

When I am traumatized due to some horrible traumatic event in my life, I lose all my good moods/feelings and I have none whatsoever. My life possesses no real perceived quality of good value/worth even despite getting help and wanting to feel better. So, even me getting help did not give my life any real perceived quality of good value/worth. That is why I conclude that it is only how we feel that gives our lives a real perceived quality of good and bad value. I just don't agree with this non feeling version of value that society, friends, and family advocate. There is just no way I could ever live the entirety of my life and see any good value/worth living like this without my good moods/feelings.

Your experience concerning a traumatic event is not the standard for all of humanity in history concerning this topic

The testimony of your experience and 'your life' that resulted is anecdotal and resembles a symptom of PTSD.

As previously noted previously your argument is really not one fro Hedonism.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Your experience concerning a traumatic event is not the standard for all of humanity in history concerning this topic

The testimony of your experience and 'your life' that resulted is anecdotal and resembles a symptom of PTSD.

As previously noted previously your argument is really not one fro Hedonism.

Here is a better and more brief version of my logical argument:

1.) Perceiving something to be of good value, worth, joy, beauty, inspiration, love, a heavenly experience, and happiness to you can only be an experience for you that has a good quality. In short, having good value and worth, along with joy, beauty, and happiness in your life is always a good quality of experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it. Even if you thought that a bad quality of experience was something good to you, then that would presuppose a good quality of experience.

2.) Perceiving something to be of bad value, torment, suffering, a hellish experience, and misery to you can only be an experience for you that has a bad quality. In short, having bad value, along with suffering, misery, and torment in your life is always a bad quality of experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it. Even if you thought that a good quality of experience was something bad to you, then even that would presuppose a bad quality of experience.

3.) Perceiving something to be of neither good value, worth, bad value, joy, beauty, happiness, suffering, torment, or misery to you can only be an experience for you that has no quality. In short, having neither good value, worth, nor bad value, along with having no suffering, a hellish experience, a heavenly experience, misery, torment, happiness, or beauty in your life is always a neutral quality of experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it. Even if you thought that a neutral quality of experience was something good or bad to you, then even that would presuppose a good or bad quality of experience.

4.) The quality of experience we have (i.e. good, bad, or neutral) is not a matter of value judgment. This is because qualities are distinct from value judgments. If you judged and believed that an orange was an apple, then that would not change the qualities that this orange has and somehow make it into an apple. Likewise, physical pain possessing a painful quality of experience is not a matter of value judgment either. Physical pain being a painful experience is what makes it physical pain in the first place just as how the qualities of an orange are what make it an orange.

In that same sense, the type of experience we have also dictates whether that experience has a good quality, bad quality, or no quality. As you can see here, it is all about the experiences we have and not about the terms we give to these experiences. It is the experiences that define the terms; not vice versa. We do not define what type of experience we have (i.e. painful, joyful, beautiful, hellish, etc.). Let me give you an example.

If someone was dying of thirst and he/she had an empty glass, then defining the emptiness inside that glass as being water would be nothing more than a term. It would not give this person the actual quality of water to save his/her life. Experience is everything to life. Without it, then we would either be dead or unconscious. A person's experience is very precious and should not be left out of the picture just as how the idea that this person needed an actual quality of water to save his/her life should not be left out of the picture.

5.) Our good moods/feelings (which I define as only being states of well being induced by our brain chemicals/neurotransmitters) are the only experiences that possess the good quality, our bad moods/feelings are the only experiences that possess the bad quality, and a non feeling experience can only possess no quality.

Therefore,

Conclusion: Our good moods/feelings are the only things that can give our lives a real perceptual quality of good value, worth, joy, beauty, a heavenly experience, and happiness, our bad moods/feelings are the only things that can give our lives a perceptual quality of bad value, suffering, misery, agony, a hellish experience, and torment, while it is only experiencing neither our good or bad moods/feelings that can bring our lives a perceptual quality of no value, worth, joy, beauty, suffering, heavenly experience, hellish experience, happiness, love, or misery.

People with a brain defect, brain damage, or low feel-good neurotransmitters due to either drug use, depression, and/or anhedonia are only having positive thoughts that their lives still have good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness to them without their good moods/feelings. But their quality of experience possesses no good quality to give any real perception of good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness to their lives. In other words, they would not be able to actually see the good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness in themselves, others around them, and in their lives.

You might as well consider the value and joy to be nothing more than terms (words/phrases) in a depressed/anhedonic person's life. Depressed/anhedonic people are only fooling and deluding themselves through these positive terms as well as through positive gestures, acts, and tones of voice in thinking their lives have real good value and worth to them. But, again, their actual experience possesses no good quality. They might have a little bit of good moods/feelings to some small degree, but that would only offer them a small quality of perceptual good value/worth perceived in their lives.

Additional delusional factors include conditioning, strength of character, and empathy towards other human beings which would certainly delude an individual into thinking that helping out others, making the best of life, etc. during miserable times would give real good value, worth, and joy to a person's life with no need for any good moods/feelings.

 

[Curious George]

Additional delusional factors include conditioning, strength of character, and empathy towards other human beings which would certainly delude an individual into thinking that helping out others, making the best of life, etc. during miserable times would give real good value, worth, and joy to a person's life with no need for any good moods/feelings.

This is a contradiction of your argument.