My Issues With Romans One

[idav]

What ever are you talking about them choosing to have their hearts hardened.
There's nothing in Romans 1 about people choosing to have their hearts hardened.

There's this bridge and the sign does say, Danger bridge unsafe to cross.

But yet a person did not obey the sign and went any how and went to cross the bridge and the bridge fell, That now they are without excuse.
They didn't heed the sign warning the bridge is unsafe to cross.

That's all Romans 1 is doing, is giving a warning and if people do not heed the warning given, Then they are without excuse.

You said it here.

God does not purposely do that to people.

It's people who chooses to do those things.
If a person is that determine to do those things, Then God gave them over to do those things.

It's like you trying to talk to a person out of doing something.
But if they are that determine to do it.
So would you keep talking, knowing it's not going to do any good or would you let them go.
You would let them go, knowing just how determine they are to do it.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Well now, what you're saying is false. What will be your excuse if you meet God that you made him into something false? Have you read Matthew 7:1-3


Other religions also do the same, they warn us of hell if we disbelieve. I'll believe the first one that gives evidence. As it is, God doesn't seem that interested in this religion game.


And when there is lot of crying for wolf, but the wolf doesn't appear, who will believe the messenger?


So what's the excuse that people could only read this in the Bible for a few hundred years and only a minority of people who have lived since Paul have ever heard of it?

I don't have to Judge, God's word already has Judge.

Have you read John 7:24 --"Judge not according to the appearance, but Judge Righteous Judgement"

Do you understand what this means.
It means, make sure a person is doing, What they are Revealing. Then Judge them with Righteous Judgement.

When a person is found in the appearance of being something.You can not Judge them by the appearance.

But however if they are, to what they are Revealing, then Judge them with Righteous Judgement.

 

[Faithofchristian]

You said it here.

God did not hardened their hearts.

People hardened their own heart's

God had nothing to do with it.

All God did, if a person chooses not to listen, that person harden their own heart not to listen, So God let them go,
to listen to their heart.

If you chose to do something, that you would not listen to no one, You harden your own heart not to listen.
Therefore God had nothing to do with it.
But you, You harden your own heart.
Not to listen.
So the fault lies with you and not God.

 

[idav]

God did not hardened their hearts.

People hardened their own heart's

God had nothing to do with it.

All God did, if a person chooses not to listen, that person harden their own heart not to listen, So God let them go,
to listen to their heart.

If you chose to do something, that you would not listen to no one, You harden your own heart not to listen.
Therefore God had nothing to do with it.
But you, You harden your own heart.
Not to listen.
So the fault lies with you and not God.

Please expand on "then God have them over to do these things" you are referencing the verses.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Please expand on "then God have them over to do these things" you are referencing the verses.

God gave them over to do those things.
Because they hardened their own hearts not to listen.
So God let them go, to listen to their own hearts.

I get the impression, that your looking for someone else to blame besides yourself.

Take Responsibility for your own actions, don't try to put it off on someone else.

That's exactly what your trying to do, put your own fault of what you do, Over on God.

No, Take Responsibility for your own failures, in life.

 

[idav]

God gave them over to do those things.
Because they hardened their own hearts not to listen.
So God let them go, to listen to their own hearts.

I get the impression, that your looking for someone else to blame besides yourself.

Take Responsibility for your own actions, don't try to put it off on someone else.

That's exactly what your trying to do, put your own fault of what you do, Over on God.

No, Take Responsibility for your own failures, in life.

As for people's sins, unbelief isn't too high on the scale, I meet moral atheists quite frequently. Yes and even swingers that believe in God.

 

[Jumi]

I don't have to Judge, God's word already has Judge.

Well I gave you the warning, what you do with it is up to you.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Well I gave you the warning, what you do with it is up to you.

You gave no warning about anything.

Had you any knowledge, understanding, What is ment by, Judge not, for in the way you Judge, you shalt be judge"
Do not Judge falsely, but Judge Righteous Judgement.
Judge not by the appearance.

If I Judge whether or not I want to be with a certain woman, That's Righteous Judgement.
There's nothing wrong in that or a woman Judges within herself whether or not she wants to be with certain man or not, There's nothing wrong in that either.

If I Judge of myself whether I want to associate with a certain person, There's nothing wrong in that. That is righteous judgement.

If I Judge a person falsely, then I will be judge for judging them falsely.

If I judge a person by their appearance, and it turns out they are not what I thought they were by their appearance. Then my judgement was false.
But if I judge them by their appearance, and it turns out, they are doing, by what they are showing by their appearance, Then my judgement is true.

Therefore, you pick out a verse and go about trying to build a whole mountain out of it.
Without any knowledge or understanding, what the verse is saying.

 

[DavidFirth]

Disbelief of God or belief in Romans as the word of God?

John 3:16-18

 

[DavidFirth]

Is that what you believe it says. Well that's a new interpretation to me. Often it's used by Christians to insult non-believers.

I wonder what you think about @Faithofchristian 's view that it's about giving him right to judge other people as guilty conscience for something that "everyone is supposed to know, because Paul wrote so and his letter got in the Bible."

Well, neither my opinion or his matters, the word of God trumps all.

 

[Faithofchristian]

John 3:16-18

DavidFirth, your right about John 3:16.

But if I may say. In John 3:16, Notice Jesus said --> "That whosoever believeth in
him ( Christ Jesus ) should not perish, but have everlasting life"

Now if I may ask, Just how does the Atheists fit into John 3:16 ?
Seeing they don't believe in Christ Jesus or God
Do you see, what is being said in John 3:16

Hope this is some help for you.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Your taking Barbarians as a derogatory comment, Maybe you should find out what Barbarian in the Greek Language stands to mean, before you make any allegations.

Why not just say foreigners? Why not call them as the citizens of their own country?

So before you make any allegations about what Paul said, at lease know what it means to call a certain people barbarians in the Greek Language.

Being a foreigner was an insult to the ancient Greeks. Like others, they were xenophobic and ethnocentric.

I think it's just Paul getting a little frustrated at his inability to convince some folks of what seems to him an obvious truth.

Swindlers are often irritated when no one buys their crap.

If a person wants to know, how God reacts to certain things, Then studying the Bible will give them an idea where God stands on certain things.

Technically that only gives us the human impression about how God reacts to things.

Just going out looking at nature, isn't enough to know how God thinks about certain things.

Wasn't it earlier in the thread we had to read this:
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

It seems now you're saying creation does NOT tell us about God.

Romans one, as well as other passages of the bible well let people know how God thinks about things.

Paul is not God. It tells us what PAUL thinks about things.

And the new testament came by 12 men that were chosen out of Israel by Christ Jesus himself.

There aren't 12 gospels, though. Clearly the NT only cares about the opinions of some of them, not all of them.

That's why we have the scriptures, to read and to study to know about God.

God's eternal/immortal and those other guys aren't, so technically that means you can just ask Him?

Now if God wants to reveal some science to me that would be great.

I was failing a statistics class in college, as I'm not great with numbers (being a more visual person), and after praying for help and dreaming of an angel tutoring me, I started getting A's. Does that help?

You just show your lack of knowledge. Really maybe if you took the time in studying the Bible you might find out more about science than you realize.

Such as bats being considered birds? Such as insects only having four legs? Such as the sun standing still (even if it did, that doesn't do anything for what the planet Earth is doing, does it now?)? Such as breeding mottled livestock by putting them in front of mottled sticks? Such as pi only being 3?

If I want to read about science, I'd better go to Greece, Egypt, China, or any number of places with much better grasps of reality than Hebrews/Jews at the same time.

This is akin to the vegan saying "The only reason you eat meat is because you hate animals" while providing no proof. You just want to believe 1:20 because you feel it gives you the right to judge unbelievers and avoid guilt over it.

Exactly. John and Paul and Peter all help the theological narcissists feel better about themselves.

Therefore the bible does teach about having knowledge and understanding science.

Even disciple Luke was a physician which he used science to help him to treat people.

No one from Israel or Judah was an expert at what constituted science at the time. You had to go to Greece or Egypt or Babylonia or something. Every civilization that conquered the area was better at thinking than they were.

Luke was Greek, not Jewish. That alone should tell you all you need to know.

No one and this includes Paul puts anything in the Bible, unless God wants it in the Bible.

LOL.

If I'm out and talking with people, all I have to do is make mention that I am Christian and Atheists goes jumping.

Christianity didn't even wait until Jesus was cold before becoming a self-obsessed farce. There were those who took it seriously, but even Jesus supposedly calls the apostles themselves morons for not understanding him and THEY WERE RIGHT THERE.

If you want to advertise a better Christianity, let go of Paul, for starters.

Atheists don't bother me and I don't let them. But man they sure get all work up just at the mentioning of christianity.
And the same with homosexualit and Atheists thats their life, go live it.

You think those people are going to hell, though, and assume God doesn't love them because Paul and some other closeted people said so, so it DOES bother you.

It's like you trying to talk to a person out of doing something.
But if they are that determine to do it.
So would you keep talking, knowing it's not going to do any good or would you let them go.
You would let them go, knowing just how determine they are to do it.

I'm glad my God isn't that much of a petty wuss.

I worship the Good Shepherd, the One who will stick you with you and find you no matter what, not the father of the Prodigal Son, who's like, "Oh, is Junior missing? That sucks. I'm sure he'll be fine."

What the 1:20 is saying, that with God's power of creation and nature stands there as God's proof. That no one has no excuse.

You JUST said nature was not going to tell you everything about God.

It's no more than you talking to people, trying to warn them That the bridge is out.

It's like putting up such a sign when it's flat land for miles and there is no bridge anyway.

But yet a person did not obey the sign and went any how and went to cross the bridge and the bridge fell, That now they are without excuse.
They didn't heed the sign warning the bridge is unsafe to cross.

Lawsuits have been made over signs, their readability, their location, etc. Why not put up concrete barriers to stop them from trying the broken bridge (assuming there's even one)? Romans knew about concrete. It shouldn't be that hard. God in the Bible is a lot like Willy Wonka:

Half the contract is probably just dots on the page and yet proudly proclaims that everyone knew what they were getting into even though no one was allowed to read it or negotiate terms.

No those Verse's are just giving a warning. For those who do those things, That after all the warnings, and they still want to do those things they are without a Excuse.

If people are warned about a house on fire and the house is not on fire and there isn't even a house on the lot in the first place, people have every right to call it hogwash.

Do you understand what this means.
It means, make sure a person is doing, What they are Revealing. Then Judge them with Righteous Judgement.

I disagree with the notion that biblical authors have much experience in the way of justice at all. These are people who would kill you over what you're wearing or what you ate for lunch. These are people who refuse to give civil rights to at least half of their population. Even Egypt could do that much.

God had nothing to do with it.

The bible specifically says it, though. Why do you believe God is such a snowflake He can't take responsibility for His actions?

I get the impression, that your looking for someone else to blame besides yourself.

Well, we ARE made in God's image, after all.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Why not just say foreigners? Why not call them as the citizens of their own country?


Being a foreigner was an insult to the ancient Greeks. Like others, they were xenophobic and ethnocentric.


Swindlers are often irritated when no one buys their crap.


Technically that only gives us the human impression about how God reacts to things.


Wasn't it earlier in the thread we had to read this:
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

It seems now you're saying creation does NOT tell us about God.


Paul is not God. It tells us what PAUL thinks about things.


There aren't 12 gospels, though. Clearly the NT only cares about the opinions of some of them, not all of them.


God's eternal/immortal and those other guys aren't, so technically that means you can just ask Him?


I was failing a statistics class in college, as I'm not great with numbers (being a more visual person), and after praying for help and dreaming of an angel tutoring me, I started getting A's. Does that help?


Such as bats being considered birds? Such as insects only having four legs? Such as the sun standing still (even if it did, that doesn't do anything for what the planet Earth is doing, does it now?)? Such as breeding mottled livestock by putting them in front of mottled sticks? Such as pi only being 3?

If I want to read about science, I'd better go to Greece, Egypt, China, or any number of places with much better grasps of reality than Hebrews/Jews at the same time.


Exactly. John and Paul and Peter all help the theological narcissists feel better about themselves.


No one from Israel or Judah was an expert at what constituted science at the time. You had to go to Greece or Egypt or Babylonia or something. Every civilization that conquered the area was better at thinking than they were.

Luke was Greek, not Jewish. That alone should tell you all you need to know.


LOL.


Christianity didn't even wait until Jesus was cold before becoming a self-obsessed farce. There were those who took it seriously, but even Jesus supposedly calls the apostles themselves morons for not understanding him and THEY WERE RIGHT THERE.

If you want to advertise a better Christianity, let go of Paul, for starters.


You think those people are going to hell, though, and assume God doesn't love them because Paul and some other closeted people said so, so it DOES bother you.


I'm glad my God isn't that much of a petty wuss.

I worship the Good Shepherd, the One who will stick you with you and find you no matter what, not the father of the Prodigal Son, who's like, "Oh, is Junior missing? That sucks. I'm sure he'll be fine."


You JUST said nature was not going to tell you everything about God.


It's like putting up such a sign when it's flat land for miles and there is no bridge anyway.


Lawsuits have been made over signs, their readability, their location, etc. Why not put up concrete barriers to stop them from trying the broken bridge (assuming there's even one)? Romans knew about concrete. It shouldn't be that hard. God in the Bible is a lot like Willy Wonka:

Half the contract is probably just dots on the page and yet proudly proclaims that everyone knew what they were getting into even though no one was allowed to read it or negotiate terms.


If people are warned about a house on fire and the house is not on fire and there isn't even a house on the lot in the first place, people have every right to call it hogwash.


I disagree with the notion that biblical authors have much experience in the way of justice at all. These are people who would kill you over what you're wearing or what you ate for lunch. These are people who refuse to give civil rights to at least half of their population. Even Egypt could do that much.


The bible specifically says it, though. Why do you believe God is such a snowflake He can't take responsibility for His actions?


Well, we ARE made in God's image, after all.

You are not to smart on historical facts.

Because back during those times, people used words of terminology to Represent people of another country, As did the Greeks in calling people of a foreign country Barbarians.
As did many other Countries called other people in other countries Barbarians. It was a common practice back in those times.

You can not take what people did 2000 years ago and try to imply it, by our standards of to day.
Of course to day, we don't call people of another country Barbarians.
But back 2000 years ago, it was common practice to call people of another country Barbarians, meaning foreigners.

It was just a terminology of a word to represent a Foreigner.
No more than people of to day use terminology of words to represent something else.

Like back in the late 60's and 70's, in calling my girlfriend, we would say, This is my squeeze. Meaning my girlfriend.

Like asking a friend, do you have any bread on you, Meaning do you have any money on you.

Like in asking a friend do have a straight one on you. Meaning a cigarette.
Like asking a friend, do you have wheels. Meaning do you have a car.

So it's all in the terminology of words being used.
So it was with the Greeks 2000 years ago, in calling a Foreigner a Barbarian.

 

[DavidFirth]

DavidFirth, your right about John 3:16.

But if I may say. In John 3:16, Notice Jesus said --> "That whosoever believeth in
him ( Christ Jesus ) should not perish, but have everlasting life"

Now if I may ask, Just how does the Atheists fit into John 3:16 ?
Seeing they don't believe in Christ Jesus or God
Do you see, what is being said in John 3:16

Hope this is some help for you.

Atheists fit into verses 17 & 18, not 16.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Atheists fit into verses 17 & 18, not 16.

I didn't say, Atheists fit into John 3:16,

If you look at what Jesus said, Whosoever believe's in him.
Atheists do not believe in Christ Jesus.
Therefore John 3:16-18 stands against them.

 

[Jumi]

Therefore, you pick out a verse and go about trying to build a whole mountain out of it.

Mentioning a verse is making a mountain? I don't expect you to be non-judging. Most of you aren't, I prefer the words of Jesus, not Paul or your Church. Therefore I'm not "Christian" and remain unconvinced of what you say.

You have your own understanding and I remain unconvinced. 1:20 is still false whether you believe judging people by what you think is righteous or not.

 

[Jumi]

Well, neither my opinion or his matters, the word of God trumps all.

That's fine, but then don't try to say yours is the right way of reading if you don't want to take responsibility for your opinion.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Mentioning a verse is making a mountain? I don't expect you to be non-judging. Most of you aren't, I prefer the words of Jesus, not Paul or your Church. Therefore I'm not "Christian" and remain unconvinced of what you say.

You have your own understanding and I remain unconvinced. 1:20 is still false whether you believe judging people by what you think is righteous or not.

As to who said anything about me belongings to a church. As you say. You take by your assumption, Just because I am Christian, that i belong to a church, Therefore you judge me falsely.
You judge me by the appearance, of not finding out for sure, if I really do belong to a church, Which I do not belong to a church.
Therefore you judge me falsely.
Thereby before you make accusations about someone, make sure they are, what you think they are. Before you go accusing someone of something.

You say you prefer the words of Jesus, but yet I gave you the words of Jesus.

Jesus said in the book of John 7:24--"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment"

So explain what does Jesus mean by "judge not according to the appearance"
Seeing how you judge me by the appearance, it should be easy for you to explain what Jesus ment by not to judge by the appearance?

You seem to know it all, So explain what does Jesus mean by Righteous Judgement?
What is Righteous Judgement?

What does Jesus mean by in
Matthew 7:1,2 --"Judge not, that you be not judged, For with what judgement you judge, you shall be judged; and with what measured you estimate, it shall be measured to you again"

So explain exactly what Jesus means by all of this.

As for Romans 1:20, your just another one, who can not handle it, all because it points out people as to who they really are.
So when you say 1:20 is false, you just told on yourself thats all.

 

[idav]

Atheists fit into verses 17 & 18, not 16.

Non-Christian fits better.

 

[idav]

I didn't say, Atheists fit into John 3:16,

If you look at what Jesus said, Whosoever believe's in him.
Atheists do not believe in Christ Jesus.
Therefore John 3:16-18 stands against them.

Some people consider Christ like the twelfth or thirteenth avatar. Some theists don't believe Jesus even existed. My point is atheism is not the only way not to be Christian.