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My journey back to atheism

PureX

Veteran Member
Can you explain why you think God is self-evident?
"I think therefor I am" is considered a fundamentally self-evident truth in philosophy, based on the recognition of existential agency. And by this same logic, it becomes evident that you also "think, and therefor you are" because my thoughts do not authorize or negate yours. You are therefor also an existential agency in your own right, like myself.

But just as neither of us is the author or negator of the other, neither are we the author or negator of the place we jointly occupy, and through which we are able to recognize each other. Thus, there is clearly some other agency at work, here, besides you and I.

Whatever that agency is remains a mystery to us. But that it is, literally "here", is self evident.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
When I first joined this forum, I was way much more open to deism. But over the last few years and especially since the events of January 6th, I've become much more critical of all forms of superstition and delusional belief systems. When I was in my twenties I participated in the Usenet forum Christianity vs Atheism. At first, I argued the pro-atheist's position. Then, just for fun and because it was so challenging, I started arguing the deist position in the debate. And then something funny happened. I started to believe my own arguments for deism! So for many years I pretty much believed in God. But not now. God is just a word for me and its meaning only exists in our imaginations. Science is real. Facts are real. Everything else is imaginary delusion. It seems I've returned back to my atheistic roots of my childhood!

My other problem with religion is the way Christianity and politics have been combined in the GOP. The D students in the back of the class continue to think they are smarter than everyone else. The GOP rank and file want their STRONG daddy figure so they can worship him as if the person is God on Earth. It's almost like a cult. It's like the GOP authoritarians have been indoctrinated with a religion based on monarchy which advocates a single authority at the top with a bunch of obedient slaves at the bottom. With Trump, the GOP seems to want to return to a King James type government. King James believed in the divine rights of kings and wrote about it in his book "True Law of Free Monarchies." The divine right of kings claims: "In European Christianity, the divine right of kings, divine right, or God's mandation is a political and religious doctrine of political legitimacy of a monarchy. It stems from a specific metaphysical framework in which a monarch is, before birth, pre-ordained to inherit the crown. According to this theory of political legitimacy, the subjects of the crown have actively (and not merely passively) turned over the metaphysical selection of the king's soul – which will inhabit the body and rule them – to God. In this way, the "divine right" originates as a metaphysical act of humility and/or submission towards God. " The GOP doesn't believe in the rule-of-law, equality, no one is above or below the law, voting, democracy, and a fellowship of equal voters. The GOP wants STRONG leadership above every other consideration!

I just cannot accept the nature of modern day Christianity. I cannot accept the way the GOP puts STRONG leadership before the rule-of-law, equality, no one is above or below the law, voting, democracy, the fellowship that comes from considering everyone as being equals, and women's rights. I'm done with Christianity. I just can't stand it.

And even further, years ago I read Friedrich Nietzsche's criticisms of Christianity which really persuaded me against Christianity. Friedrich Nietzsche said Christianity was born in response to Roman oppression. It took hold in the minds of timid slaves who did not have the courage or strength to get hold of what they really wanted. The slaves could not admit to their own failings. So they clung to a philosophy that made a virtue of cowardice. Everything the Christians wanted and wished they had in their lives for fulfilment was what was considered to be a sin. A position in the world, prestige, sex, intellectual mastery, wealth were too difficult or beyond their reach. The Christian slaves created a hypocritical creed denouncing what they wanted but were too weak to fight for to get while praising what they did not want but did have as being worth having. So in the Christian value system sexlessness turned into 'purity', weakness became "goodness," submission to authority became "obedience," and in Nietzsche's words, "not-being-able-take-revenge" turned into "forgiveness." The Bible is a worthless religion for sadomasochistic slaves. I simply refuse to be an obedient slave to any person or any belief system.

I still like Taoism and the Unity of Opposites. But as I said, after the events of January 6th, I just can't pretend the weak minded cultists are benign and meaningless any longer. I'm probably leaning back towards a strong minded pro-atheist position. Plus, arguing atheism is so much easier to argue than deism. Atheism is way more intellectually pleasing, logical, and consistent as a belief system. When you have the absence of belief, there's nothing left to argue about!
" When you have the absence of belief "
then 'cause one has already left the reason, isn't one in the heart of superstition, please? Right?

Regards
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Thus, there is clearly some other agency at work, here, besides you and I.

Whatever that agency is remains a mystery to us. But that it is, literally "here", is self evident.
That doesn't follow from your previous claims, it is pure assumption, an appeal to mystery. Not only it is not self evident though, it doesn't offer any reason, let alone objective evidence why you assume this "agency" is a deity, which is what you claimed.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Well this is pretty fuzzy wording. I doubt you understand basic science. Do you even know what a hypothesis is? Do you know how a theory in science is considered valid versus a failure?


Very few strong atheists do. The vast majority of atheists simply reject the claims made by believers that their many versions of Gods exist. There is no evidence that any exist.


False. This is an absurd claim.

We atheists allow theists to demonstrate their God exists outside of their imagination and they can't do it. Why should we assume their beliefs are true? They can't explain how they decided a God exists.


Until theists explain exactly what their God is, and how they know it exists, and how they came to a valid conclusion their version is true. They don't, so we remain unconvinced.


False. We don't believe anything about the many Gods of theists. We are indifferent to the idea of a god and we ask believers questions about why they believe in one god or another. All we do is listen to what the believer claims, and we assess it. No theist can offer any facts, or other evidence than any gods anywhere exist outside of their imagination, so we remain unconvinced.

Why do theists have such a hard time showing they have any evidence for the gods they insist exist?


That's why we wait for believers to demonstrate their gods exist. They can't. So we remain unconvinced.


Theories in science have met a minimum standard of 99.95%, so way more accurate than any arbitrary belief. Theory as used in the tabloid magazine context, meaning speculation, is closer to what you mean here. But this type of speculation is often flawed and lacking adequate evidence. Beliefs are judgments of ideas. Juries in court come to a verdict that the 12 jurors have agreed upon as a belief in guilt. As we know juries get verdicts wrong, so belief is not perfect and can be flawed due to many variables. So belief can be dead wrong, and implausible, like the Noah Flood myth, or highly likely.


False. The sun rising (false idea as it's actually the earth that rotates) happens as a matter of fact. There is no reason to believe it would stop happening. IF some circumstance that the earth stopped rotating we would all be dead before you would wake up. So this is an absurd example.

The earth rotating is a fact, so we don't need to believe it happens. We don't have to believe in facts, they are real and there to verify as existing or real via the sense. Beliefs are only things we cannot be certain about or verify. This is why theories in science are better than beliefs. Tests verify that evolution is a real phenomenon, and it isn't a matter of belief.


I'm not convinced. Prove it.


Irrelevant. People believe in things they are wrong about.


Irrelevant.


Yet pigs have the wisdom to not believe in irrational and stupid things like many humans. Good for the pigs.
.
You said.. Why should we assume their beliefs are true? They can't explain how they decided a God exists.

I reply: Why should we assume the Atheist beliefs are true? The Atheist can't explain how they decided a God does NOT exists

You BELIEVE... There is Not a god! A belief is unproven, until it is proven it remains a belief! FACT: You cannot prove there is NOT a god!
Jesus came saying "He is God"! You cannot prove Jesus is NOT a god! You cannot prove Jesus was not on earth, that he did not claim to be God!

Your logic...Yet pigs have the wisdom to not believe in irrational and stupid things like many humans. Good for the pigs
I reply: Now you speak for pigs....!?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
OK well I tried to understand your point of view but you’re obviously hung up on words rather than concepts, so this conversation will obviously go nowhere.
That's exactly the tactic by some theists. They are so uncertain about their beliefs that they like to murky words to a point that there is no coherent meaning.

"Is there a poisonous snake in this box?"

"Well what is a box, exactly? Is it made of cardboard, well that is just paper, and made from trees, so maybe it's a tree, or wood."

We are asking about a dangerous snake and they are off on irrelevant tangents.

"Explain what you mean when you refer to your God and how do you as a mortal conclude it exists."

"How do you know and orange is an orange and not an apple?"

It's sabotage of the search for truth. Truth is often fairly simple and clear, and to some theists that is unsatisfactory. There has to be confusion and mystery, because that is where they can hide their god. Faith thrives more in confusion and uncertainty. The more a person knows the batter their capacity to reason to sound conclusions. This leaves less room for a God to exist their their heads, so knowledge is evil, the antithesis of faith, contrary to spirit, whatever.

This is why it is so easy to be an atheist.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
.
You said.. Why should we assume their beliefs are true? They can't explain how they decided a God exists.

I reply: Why should we assume the Atheist beliefs are true? The Atheist can't explain how they decided a God does NOT exists

You BELIEVE... There is Not a god! A belief is unproven, until it is proven it remains a belief! FACT: You cannot prove there is NOT a god!
Jesus came saying "He is God"! You cannot prove Jesus is NOT a god! You cannot prove Jesus was not on earth, that he did not claim to be God!

Your logic...Yet pigs have the wisdom to not believe in irrational and stupid things like many humans. Good for the pigs
I reply: Now you speak for pigs....!?

Atheism isn't a belief, it is the lack or absence of belief in any deity or deities.

noun
  1. disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
Many atheists don't make a positive claim no deity exists, they simply disbelieve theistic claims for an extant deity(s) as they don't find any objective or compelling evidence or reason to believe such claims.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
.
You said.. Why should we assume their beliefs are true? They can't explain how they decided a God exists.

I reply: Why should we assume the Atheist beliefs are true? The Atheist can't explain how they decided a God does NOT exists

You BELIEVE... There is Not a god!
No I don't. I have made no such claim. You are imposing this claim onto me, and switching my rejection of what theists claim is true as me asserting their many gods do not exist. Get it correct. Be accurate.

Plus, no atheist can declare anyone's version of God doesn't exist UNTIL theists are very concise and clear about what they believe exists. Theists avoid this, either because they have no idea what their God is, or from fear of describing it and be unable to defend the idea as true.

A belief is unproven, until it is proven it remains a belief!
It's more accurate to say that beliefs are uncertain. They can range from being complete false, to being highly likely. It depends on the evidence.

FACT: You cannot prove there is NOT a god!
What's a god?

Jesus came saying "He is God"! You cannot prove Jesus is NOT a god! You cannot prove Jesus was not on earth, that he did not claim to be God!
Jesus is a character in Bible stories. It's not known if he was an actual person or a fiction, so irrelevant. Christians can fight over this issue. As it is they disagree over this, and many other crucial concepts in their religion. Some say Jesus is God. Others disagree. Some Christians believe in the Trinity, others disagree. It's got nothing to do with atheist that Christians are this confused about their own religion.

Your logic...Yet pigs have the wisdom to not believe in irrational and stupid things like many humans. Good for the pigs
I reply: Now you speak for pigs....!?
No, I speak for their wisdom in not being confused theists.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
OK, let’s try this one more time, and please try to pay attention to the actual details and actual questions. This really is not that difficult.



This you got right!
That is exactly what I asked. Thank you.

Your replied; “YES…The Atheist “BELIEVES” there is not a god!”

Close but not quite. Now pay attention to the detail here and see if you can spot the difference.

This atheist (I’m speaking for myself) does NOT believe that there IS a god.

Did you spot the difference?
Once again; I do NOT believe that there is a god.

It’s not that I have a belief…. it’s that I do NOT have a belief in a god.

Got it? Are you still with me?

You then continue;
“He can not PROVE there are not any gods! All the Atheist has is BELIEF and THEORY!”

As I pointed out above…I do NOT believe in YOUR THEORY that there is a god.

Since I do NOT believe YOUR THEORY that a god exists, that leaves it up to YOU to PROVE that your god exists. Can you do that?

If not, that means that you BELIEVE in a THEORY that you can not PROVE.

See, that wasn’t so hard was it?

Now for the logic part, you said:
“Logic does say; there is TRUTH! Logic does say, they cannot all be the true God! Logic does say;: "There is a God of some sort"!”

You started off OK;
Yes logic can lead to logical truths,
and your correct that the situation I explained in a previous post (the fact that since there are many gods believed in today that contradict the beliefs in many other gods believed today) shows that it’s logical to conclude that they can not all be true.

But, you came off the rails on “Logic does say;: "There is a God of some sort"!”
Your going to have to substantiate that one!

You say; “You claim to be an Atheist... You do not have to say: "There is NO god"; it is implied!”

I don’t have to say anything, but I chose to do so in order to make myself as clear as possible.
This way hopefully someone won’t be confused about my position and mistakenly think I implied a position that I don’t necessarily hold.

Let me say again for clarity sake:
I do NOT BELIEVE that a god exists.

Again this is were you need to pay attention to details.
I did NOT say: I believe a god does not exist.
I DID say: I do not believe a god exists.

Did you get it that time?

Next you claim: “You asked: "Do I worship any gods"!?”

Actually no.
After you made the statement:
FACT: People believe there are Ghosts! The North American Indian believed is "A Great White Spirit"! The Inca of Central America had their belief in gods, they offered human sacrifice to their gods!
The Egyptians had many gods! Etc”

I then asked:
“Are you implying that not only the fact THAT they believed, but also WHAT they believed is correct?
If so, which of these spirits and gods do you accept as being true?
Do you worship any of them?
If not, why?”

Here, I’ll reword it for you:

Do you believe the fact that these different civilizations believed in various gods, it makes WHAT they believe in true?

If you answer “yes” to that question, it would logically follow that you believe that the “Great White Spirit”, the gods of the Incas, the gods of the Egyptians, etc. are true.
Is this correct?

Which of these do you accept as true?

Do you worship the “Great White Spirit”, or the gods of the Incas, or the gods of Egypt, etc.?

If you don’t worship them….why not?

Can you please honestly answer these questions?

As for your reply:
“Worship is for God and only God! There are many people that worship money or a car!”

I don’t get it. It seems nonsensical to me and a complete non sequitur.
.
Dao Hao Now I hope all is going well...
You are an Atheist.... You Believe there is NO God!
...................................................................
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
.................................................................

Thus you BELIEVE there is NO god! It is up to you to prove your belief!
People have seen ghosts... Ghosts are spirit God is Spirit! Chock one up for me! Do you reject Ghosts??????
Dao Hao Now
Do you have a spirit????? Are you Body & Spirit!???

Man has always believed in a God/gods! Chock up another one for me! You Believe there is NO God/gods!
Man is higher in intellect then Chickens Pigs Dogs etc. You lower yourself to their level! Chock up a third!
Jesus claimed to be God.
Jesus was NOT a myth he was alive on earth 2000 years ago!
If Jesus was not true his movement his followers would have disbanded long ago!

There are many miracles recorded throughout history!
.....................................................
noun
plural noun: miracles
  1. a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.
    "the miracle of rising from the grave"
.......................................................

Dao Hao Now You MUST prove there have never been Miracles!
You believe there is NO God/gods! ....a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
You BELIEVE there are NO Ghosts.
You Believe you do NOT have a spirit!
You BELIEVE the world has been wrong for thousands of years!
You BELIEVE Jesus was NOT God!
You believe Pigs are equal to man!
 

PureX

Veteran Member
You are an Atheist.... You Believe there is NO God!
...................................................................
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
.................................................................

Thus you BELIEVE there is NO god! It is up to you to prove your belief!
Actually, he is an atheist that believes that if God/gods exists, you or someone else would be able to prove it to him. And he would be able to recognize that proof, as proof. So that when you cannot fulfill his demand, he then considers it reasonable to presume that no gods exist. It's an absolutely irrational and illogical course of reasoning that he could not possibly defend, logically. So he'll keep avoiding having to defend it by insisting that the theist must offer him the proof that he demands, and yet will never recognize or accept.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Just a note: "I'm thinking of becoming an atheist because right-wing Christianity sucks" makes zero sense. Whether or not there is a god has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not any particular religion is correct or likable.
Rejecting a religious ideology because you disagree with it makes perfect sense. In doing so, one is essentially rejecting that version of god.
If a religion is false, then the god of that religion does not exist, by definition.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Gotcha, but I think that type of gullibility and insistence for a cause would not be anything new was my point.
Seeing how convinced people are that a complete fabrication is true must give other people cause to question the certainty of their own beliefs. One would hope so anyway.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
.I say.. There is NO possible way for us to be here by random chance!
The world we see around us didn't arrive by random chance. It is the result of specific physical processes. Just because you don't know how something happened doesn't mean it must have been magic.

To make an "Eye" by chance is far more complicated then by chance (For example)
The eye evolved through multiple stages over a long period. Each stage works independently and many can still be seen in some species. Again, your lack of knowledge of evolutionary biology does not mean magic must be the answer.

The Fact the earth is at a tilt, that fact the earth has a moon, the fact the earth is at just the right distance from the sun, the fact that water gets lighter as a solid, the fact the earth has water, the fact the earth spins are just the right speed, the fact we have air to breath, the fact the earth is at the end of an arm in the galaxy etc. These many so called coincidences could not happen by chance never mind the complexity of life to form!
Why do you call them coincidences? What about all the other planets where life is not possible? Did god **** up there?
Life occurs on planets where life is possible. It does not occur where it is not possible. I fail to see what the mystery is.

To think life could form from chance is thinking a room full of monkeys could by accident type out the constitution of the United States!
As the Monkey Theorem shows, given sufficient monkeys and sufficient time, they could indeed type out the constitution of the United States. So presumably you now accept a universe by chance is a possibility (although the world we see around us is not a product of chance, as such).

The unaverse needed a creator it could not by Chance be formed!
That is just the "argument from personal incredulity". You cannot envisage something happening, so it can't happen. This is a classic fallacy of reasoning.
As Clarke's Third Law states; any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. You just need to understand that the universe is not constrained by your lack of knowledge.
 
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KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I reply.... The "Big Bang Theory" was the idea of a Catholic Priest! Something had to start the process of creation!
I reply... You are arguing against yourself! The odds of it all coming together so perfectly are astronomical!
I reply: Yes planets form in a vacuum like bubbles, they form in the shape of balls! The unaverse is perfectly formed for us to be alive!
I reply: You have a theory... Theories are UNPROVEN ideas!
I reply: God made it all.... You are rejecting the obvious! (I answered your questions you have to open up your post)
You are a troll parodying a creationist nut job, and I claim my £5.
 

Dao Hao Now

Active Member
You are an Atheist.... You Believe there is NO God!
...................................................................
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
.................................................................

Thus you BELIEVE there is NO god! It is up to you to prove your belief!

Did you only read the first 4 words of the definition you provided?
Why are you ignoring the rest which states;
Come on, say it along with me……QUOTE="Dogknox20, post: 7777750, member: 68557"]lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.[/QUOTE]

You have proven yourself to be dishonesty portraying my position.

For the final time:

Let me say again for clarity sake:
I do NOT BELIEVE that a god exists.

Again this is were you need to pay attention to details.
I did NOT say: I believe a god does not exist.
I DID say: I do not believe a god exists.

Did you get it that time?


Do you reject Ghosts??????
Dao Hao Now
Do you have a spirit????? Are you Body & Spirit!???

Yes, I reject the notion of ghosts.
I have a body….I do not believe I have a “spirit” (meaning a supernatural, incorporeal being that extends beyond the life of my body).


If Jesus was not true his movement his followers would have disbanded long ago!

By this logic, you must believe in the Hindu gods, since Hinduism pre-dates Christianity by about 2000 years and there are currently more than 1.2 billion followers of it today…..

Is that correct…do you believe in the Hindu gods?


Dao Hao Now You MUST prove there have never been Miracles!

Actually no.
Why would I have to prove there have never been miracles?
Do I need to prove there has never been a monster in Loch Ness?
Do I need to prove there has never been a Santa Claus?
Do I need to prove there is not a teapot orbiting between Earth and Mars?

Now, what do those 4 questions have in common?… The fact that they are all unfalsifiable!
Go ahead and look up “Russell’s Teapot”.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Actually, he is an atheist that believes that if God/gods exists, you or someone else would be able to prove it to him. And he would be able to recognize that proof, as proof. So that when you cannot fulfill his demand, he then considers it reasonable to presume that no gods exist.

He has already ready explained this isn't true. He doesn't believe in any deity or deities, because no one can demonstrate any objective evidence, this doesn't infer he makes any assumptions, only that theists fail to meet the most standard of evidencing their belief, but don't care.


It's an absolutely irrational and illogical course of reasoning that he could not possibly defend, logically.

Disbelieving a claim that can't be objectively evidenced at all violates no principle of logic. However claiming theistic belief has credence, just because it can't disproved, is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, so that is irrational by definition.

So he'll keep avoiding having to defend it by insisting that the theist must offer him the proof that he demands, and yet will never recognize or accept.

He has defended the spurious claim, by stating unequivocally his atheism is a lack or absence of belief in any deity or deities, which is being misrepresented as a belief. Also since claims for an extant deity represent the most extraordinary of claims, it is not unreasonable or irrational to ask what objective evidence supports the belief, when the answer is nil, withholding belief is perfectly reasonably. One wonders on what basis you disbelieve in all the same deities - except one? Since by the rationale you've used here, your belief is blatant bias. Though of course you will never recognise or accept this, yet is clearly the case.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Actually, he is an atheist that believes that if God/gods exists, you or someone else would be able to prove it to him. And he would be able to recognize that proof, as proof.
It is more ni=uanced than that. If ordinary mortals, like yourself, has come to a conclusion that a God exists, and this is justified whether by faith or by reason, then that mental process can be articulated. If these folks are of sound mind they can easily explain how their decision that a God exists is rational, true, justified, etc. What we skeptics find is that believers can't offer any evidence and no rational conclusion that any God exists. We see explanations of faith that are no better than a causal guess. We see no rebuttals to the problems some believers have as a result of the belief in God, like there being birth defects. The beliefs don't add up to rational minds, so what is the real reason believers believe since they can't articulate any rational judgment? The theist certainly doen't know.

So that when you cannot fulfill his demand, he then considers it reasonable to presume that no gods exist.
Yet believers will assert that their own God exists which means all other Gods by default don't exist. Does a believer in Yahweh ever explain how Shiva or Vishnu or Brahma doesn't exist? No. And atheists have no obligation to point out why Yahweh is any different than Hindu gods that aren't known to exist.

Of course some theists get desperate and try to switch the burden of proof, but this trick never works.

It's an absolutely irrational and illogical course of reasoning that he could not possibly defend, logically. So he'll keep avoiding having to defend it by insisting that the theist must offer him the proof that he demands, and yet will never recognize or accept.
And you miss the irony of how all this actually only applies to believers, not atheists who aren't convinced any gods exist. You're doing it here.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Sheldon Logic alone should be enough for you!

If that is meant to be me, it's not remotely what I said, there is a very versatile quote function on this site, just highlight the text and either hit reply, or quote if you want to add more quoted text to your reply. You also failed to address your use of a false dichotomy fallacy.

All things have a beginning, all things have a life span! Nothing has ever started or come into existence without a cause! Everything needs a cause.
You say "The Big Bang"!? Okay what started the Big Bang!?

Firstly your claims can only be evidenced within the physical temporal universe. Secondly time is dependant on the existence of the physical universe, so asking what started an event, when time itself didn't exist makes no sense. Lastly not knowing something is not evidence for any deity using magic.

Sheldon You say it is just pure luck that we are here.

I certainly did not, nor have I ever, said this.

And yet the odds of our universe being finely tuned would be comparable to the odds of getting 50 royal flushes in a row!

I don't believe our universe is finely tuned, this is just a metaphorical expression some scientists use in order to explain the parameters of some if physical characteristics, which creationist have latched onto out of ignorance, and misuse as an argument for an unevidenced deity using inexplicable magic.

If we reject chance as an explanation for an improbable poker game, shouldn’t we reject chance as an explanation for an even more-improbable universe?

I don't reject chance in poker, since it is demonstrably a component of all card games. I have never claimed the universe came about by chance, this is a straw man fallacy you've created. Lastly adding unevidenced deities, using inexplicable magic, from archaic unevidenced creation myths that defy natural and scientific laws, derived from ancient superstitions doesn't seem more probably to me than an as yet unknown natural phenomenon. Since we know the latter is possible, and have no objective evidence the former is.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Good odds for what?

The CHANCE for Man to be here today after 13 billions years from the start... It is not great odds!


Do you think adding inexplicable magic from an unevidenced deity reduce those odds, how bizarre. Have you ever heard of Occam's razor?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Everything you think of and label, and even the labels themselves would not exist.

The part in red is true of course, the rest is risible. Of course if humans were not here everything would still exist. Do you think everything would disappear if any other species of ape didn't exist, or is it just us?
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
Without our invented story-reality we are just hairless apes, living and dying with no more meaning or purpose than the continuation of our DNA.

Sulking because you don't like reality isn't a sound argument against reality. We add meaning to our lives subjectively, but there is no evidence that there is an overarching purpose to it all, based on the existence of one species of evolved ape that just appeared 200k years ago in a universe that's over 13 billion years old.
 
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