My new (old) faith: the Collective Enlightenment.

[ppp]

It can be but it can also make you a stronger, better person.

Which would not make the suffering itself a good thing. A bad thing that results in a good thing does not make the bad thing retroactively good.

 

[Kathryn]

Which would not make the suffering itself a good thing. A bad thing that results in a good thing does not make the bad thing retroactively good.

I guess I prefer to look at the whole picture. For instance, I think of a time I suffered but it was worth it all because of what I learned, which I probably would not have learned any other way.

 

[ppp]

I guess I prefer to look at the whole picture. For instance, I think of a time I suffered but it was worth it all because of what I learned, which I probably would not have learned any other way.

I prefer not to congratulate rapists and murderers on what your seem to think are morally virtuous assaults.

 

[Kathryn]

I have been raped but not murdered (yet anyway). I am not saying that anyone committing those crimes is morally virtuous, but what I am saying is that much good can come from some suffering and for many people there's no other way for them to grow in that direction. It's up to us to do what we will with suffering.

 

[Kathryn]

I prefer not to congratulate rapists and murderers on what your seem to think are morally virtuous assaults.

By the way, I forgave my rapist, not for him but for me. He did not ask for forgiveness, I just knew I was stuck wth that intense anger toward that person till I forgave him. I learned a lot from that whole experience.

 

[ppp]

I am not saying that anyone committing those crimes is morally virtuous, but what I am saying is that much good can come from some suffering

Well which is it? Is suffering a bad thing or not?

for many people there's no other way for them to grow in that direction

That is certainly a narrative that we see. Can you demonstrate that there is No Other Way? And let's say that there is no other way, does that allow you to tell others that their suffering was a good thing?

 

[ppp]

By the way, I forgave my rapist, not for him but for me. He did not ask for forgiveness, I just knew I was stuck wth that intense anger toward that person till I forgave him. I learned a lot from that whole experience.

A lot of people have dealt with such. Forgiveness has, IMHO, to many connotations of reconciliation with and pardoning of the offender. But if you mean internal reconciliation with the event and it's impact, and a release of the anger from ones life, I am down with that.

 

[Kathryn]

Well which is it? Is suffering a bad thing or not?



That is certainly a narrative that we see. Can you demonstrate that there is No Other Way? And let's say that there is no other way, does that allow you to tell others that their suffering was a good thing?

I would tell anyone that suffering CAN be for the best. It really just depends on the situation.

 

[Kathryn]

A lot of people have dealt with such. Forgiveness has, IMHO, to many connotations of reconciliation with and pardoning of the offender. But if you mean internal reconciliation with the event and it's impact, and a release of the anger from ones life, I am down with that.

That's all I mean. But once I let go of all that anger, my life improved dramatically.

 

[ppp]

I would tell anyone that suffering CAN be for the best. It really just depends on the situation.

10,000 children died of hunger today; in painful agony. How was their suffering best for them? How is the suffering today of the 10,000 that will die tomorrow for the best for them?

"for the best" and "much good can come from some suffering" are platitudes. A trite and unconsidered remark, typically intended to soothe or placate. A romanticization of suffering.

 

[shunyadragon]

LOL you say "suffering" like it's a bad thing.

It is a natural thing of life on earth.

 

[Kathryn]

10,000 children died of hunger today; in painful agony. How was their suffering best for them? How is the suffering today of the 10,000 that will die tomorrow for the best for them?

"for the best" and "much good can come from some suffering" are platitudes. A trite and unconsidered remark, typically intended to soothe or placate. A romanticization of suffering.

Except I've lived it. I didn't say all suffering is for the best, however. My suffering, in my situation, was for the best. I don't go around saying it because I don't judge others, including but not limited to their suffering. It's very individualistic.

Suffering CAN BE for the best, not IS for the best. It CAN make a person stronger and better, not it DOES make a person stronger or better. See the difference? That's why I don't judge the suffering of others, I stick to my own suffering, which is often a matter of perspective. Not ALWAYS, but OFTEN. Once again, see the difference?

 

[Kathryn]

It is a natural thing of life on earth.

I agree and I think it can make me a stronger, better person generally.

 

[ppp]

Except I've lived it. I didn't say all suffering is for the best, however. My suffering, in my situation, was for the best. I don't go around saying it because I don't judge others, including but not limited to their suffering. It's very individualistic.

Suffering CAN BE for the best, not IS for the best. It CAN make a person stronger and better, not it DOES make a person stronger or better. See the difference? That's why I don't judge the suffering of others, I stick to my own suffering, which is often a matter of perspective. Not ALWAYS, but OFTEN. Once again, see the difference?

You dodged both of my questions.
It seems that you avoid dealing with any consequences of your assertion when they touch upon substantive impact

 

[Kathryn]

You dodged both of my questions.
It seems that you avoid dealing with any consequences of your assertion when they touch upon substantive impact

And you dodged mine.

I didn't dodge your questions by the way, I answered them, I never said that ALL suffering is ALWAYS for the good. I said that MY suffering has often accomplished good things in MY life. There's a huge difference, which is why I don't question the suffering of other people.

 

[ppp]

And you dodged mine.

I didn't dodge your questions by the way, I answered them, I never said that ALL suffering is ALWAYS for the good. I said that MY suffering has often accomplished good things in MY life. There's a huge difference, which is why I don't question the suffering of other people.

It's okay @Kathryn . You can move on.

 

[Kathryn]

It's okay @Kathryn . You can move on.

No, I want answers to my questions.

 

[ppp]

No, I want answers to my questions.

State the specific question and cite the post where you asked it.

 

[Kathryn]

State the specific question and cite the post where you asked it.

Post #32 and I won't repeat the question.

 

[Balthazzar]

If I am spiritual, it is because I believe in the collective enlightenment (CE). I’ve talked about my conception of the CE plenty of times, starting with my “hi I’m a new member” thread.

Suffering is not inevitable. My belief holds firm. This time around, for my mental health and well being, I won’t be actively trying to start the CE. Instead, I will rather passively support the trajectory towards the CE through being moral and loving. The gods and people I require to worship for this task are different than the ones I sought before to invoke the CE.

Hey saint franky, I’m just using this quote as a launch pad for this thread, hope ya don’t mind

Take this quoted phrase as it is. It means what it says I think, and if not, let pretend it means what I think it is saying for the sake of discussion.

We can never overcome nature implies we are bound to suffering as well as death. Physically bound. Literally bound. But is the binding permanent and inevitable? Or can we transcend above suffering? Physically and literally transcend? I think so. We can’t get from point A to point Z without going through points B-Y first, so I understand if the physical and literal ascension above suffering seems… implausible.

How do we get to point Z, the point beyond suffering? By figuring out what point A is. What is point A? Love is love is love. Be nice to each other. Love one another. It seems so simple yet humanity fails this on a global scale. If man truly loved one another, the world would not be how it is presently. So, for my part, I will focus on being a beacon of love and peace for my spiritual practice.

We can debate two points I think.
1) the efficacy of love in the alleviation of suffering
2) the possibility to literally/physically transcend suffering

A. Beginning
Z. End

A. Life
Z. Death

A. First breath
Z. Last breath

Hey, thanks, for the Omega, Alpha ... I'm somewhere in-between at the moment. I'll get there when I have no fight (resolve/will) left in me to effort myself to discipline and development training.

It's like working out and strength training. I'll refrain from the CE for now. I'm too stubborn a mule not to bear some burden.

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