My new (old) faith: the Collective Enlightenment.

[ppp]

Post #32 and I won't repeat the question.

Already covered it the first time you tried to cast the suffering as a good.

Which would not make the suffering itself a good thing. A bad thing that results in a good thing does not make the bad thing retroactively good.

Suffering is not good. The choices that one makes as a result of the suffering may be good, but those good choices do not make the suffering good.

If I beat and starve my kid, the suffering I inflicted is bad, no matter what my kid ends up doing with their life. Whether they cure world hunger, or be come a serial killer, or become an average member of society, the suffering that I inflicted remain a bad thing.

 

[The Hammer]

It is a natural thing of life on earth.

Are the deer and the ant suffering?

 

[Kathryn]

Are the deer and the ant suffering?

Do you want to be a deer or an ant? I don't.

 

[Kathryn]

Already covered it the first time you tried to cast the suffering as a good.

Suffering is not good. The choices that one makes as a result of the suffering may be good, but those good choices do not make the suffering good.

If I beat and starve my kid, the suffering I inflicted is bad, no matter what my kid ends up doing with their life. Whether they cure world hunger, or be come a serial killer, or become an average member of society, the suffering that I inflicted remain a bad thing.

Sometimes no one inflicts suffering but people can still suffer. And I never said that suffering itself is good. I said it can accomplish good things in people.

 

[The Hammer]

We can debate two points I think.
1) the efficacy of love in the alleviation of suffering

Eh. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

2) the possibility to literally/physically transcend suffering

Literally? Physically?

Eh, you don't get rid of pain, but suffering and pain aren't the same thing. Suffering is emotionally engaging with the pain "why oh why am I hurting?", as opposed to "this hurts but will pass". It's all in how you interact with and perceive that pain.

 

[The Hammer]

Do you want to be a deer or an ant? I don't.

I wouldn't mind. New experiences and such. There are many days I'd prefer not to be human.

 

[Alien826]

Your worldview is Christian. You believe the world is broken with suffering and death and that it needs to be redeemed through love. That's basically Christianity, just without saying the words "God" and "Jesus". It's strange you haven't noticed that.

Have you considered that, rather than Christianity being the "base" for these ideas there could be a common cause that is reflected in all (or many) religions? In other words, with A being the cause and B, C, and so on the religions, A -> (B and C and D ...) not B -> (C and D ...)?

I would suggest that the basic tenets that religions suggest for dealing with each other are required for living in groups rather than individually.

 

[ppp]

And I never said that suffering itself is good.

You started off by chiding @an anarchist for treating suffering as though it is a bad thing.

LOL you say "suffering" like it's a bad thing.

My response was that suffering is a bad thing, and you have been arguing against that statement.

1. suffering is bad
2. the suffering, and the choices made as a result of the suffering are not the same thing
3. a good choice does not retroactively make the suffering good.
4. a good outcome does not retroactively make the suffering good.

 

[an anarchist]

Literally? Physically?

The metaphysical aspect of my philosophy, yes. I’d call it Transcendentalism but that term is already taken lol.

To shed our mortality and physical flesh shell without dying… is such a feat possible? I do not know where I get this idea. Was it deep in meditation? Was it in a dream? Was it during an episode? I am unsure, but one day, it was with me.

In my humble opinion, immorality binds us to life and death. I do not believe I am alone when I incorporate the idea of breaking free from this cycle into my spiritual philosophy. Example: Buddhism might teach that an individual can free themselves from the cycle of rebirth. I simply extrapolate that thinking and apply it to the world at large. If one person can get enlightened, then two can, as well as three, and so on.

 

[an anarchist]

I never said that suffering itself is good. I said it can accomplish good things in people.

Suffering can inspire us to figure out how to get rid of it.

 

[Kathryn]

Suffering can inspire us to figure out how to get rid of it.

Be sure and let us all know how things go with you, especially in your 60s and beyond.

 

[The Hammer]

The metaphysical aspect of my philosophy, yes. I’d call it Transcendentalism but that term is already taken lol.

Sure but you said literally and physically.

To shed our mortality and physical flesh shell without dying… is such a feat possible? I do not know where I get this idea. Was it deep in meditation? Was it in a dream? Was it during an episode? I am unsure, but one day, it was with me.

According to some the Ego dies during meditation. And for most that's as real a death as it gets.

In my humble opinion, immorality binds us to life and death. I do not believe I am alone when I incorporate the idea of breaking free from this cycle into my spiritual philosophy. Example: Buddhism might teach that an individual can free themselves from the cycle of rebirth. I simply extrapolate that thinking and apply it to the world at large. If one person can get enlightened, then two can, as well as three, and so on.

I don't really use the term enlightened/enlightenment, but I think all will reach their destination on their spiritual path in one of their lifetimes . It's not up to others to help that along. Interfering in the natural flow of events

 

[an anarchist]

Be sure and let us all know how things go with you.

Well I ain’t gonna be able to get rid of suffering in my lifetime, so I’ll tell you right now I am sure I will live in a world full of suffering for the rest of my life.

You’re a Christian, right? We believe the same thing, sort of. Heaven on Earth is possible. Though, Christianity teaches that it is inevitable, I believe that it is merely a possibility.

 

[Kathryn]

Well I ain’t gonna be able to get rid of suffering in my lifetime, so I’ll tell you right now I am sure I will live in a world full of suffering for the rest of my life.

You’re a Christian, right? We believe the same thing, sort of. Heaven on Earth is possible. Though, Christianity teaches that it is inevitable, I believe that it is merely a possibility.

See my edited post. Thanks.

 

[an anarchist]

Sure but you said literally and physically.

Ah, you are right. Well, when the physical aspect of our nature is overcome, metaphysical and physical will become one for us I suppose. That’s the thinking that led me to misspeak. We will literally be no longer physical. Physicality binds us to suffering, so it would have to be overcome. I imagine that would be one of the final steps to overcoming suffering. I am sure not many people can even imagine or fathom how such a thing is even coherent. But it makes sense to me. And one day, if we play our cards right and do the prerequisite steps to end suffering, I hope the path will become clear.

 

[an anarchist]

especially in your 60s and beyond.

See my edited post. Thanks.

??? How does this change what you said? Do you suppose I’ll change my mind or be less optimistic when I am older for some unstated reason? You give no reason why this would be the case and I see no point in your edit. You ignored my response as well.

 

[Balthazzar]

The metaphysical aspect of my philosophy, yes. I’d call it Transcendentalism but that term is already taken lol.

To shed our mortality and physical flesh shell without dying… is such a feat possible? I do not know where I get this idea. Was it deep in meditation? Was it in a dream? Was it during an episode? I am unsure, but one day, it was with me.

In my humble opinion, immorality binds us to life and death. I do not believe I am alone when I incorporate the idea of breaking free from this cycle into my spiritual philosophy. Example: Buddhism might teach that an individual can free themselves from the cycle of rebirth. I simply extrapolate that thinking and apply it to the world at large. If one person can get enlightened, then two can, as well as three, and so on.

The heartbeat of a position, I will suggest, is part of the way our brain processes' information. In our inquiries are answers to them, and due to how little we know of life and how it genuinely operates and functions, apart from what we've experienced and acknowledged as living souls, remains in dimensions unexplored by us. I have taken the position of getting there when I get there, after my will to persevere eludes my able to choose. I would quote from one of my teachers, but I'm uncertain it would be much appreciated, namely Hebrews 4. I'll leave this up to you for your own consideration.

 

[The Hammer]

Ah, you are right. Well, when the physical aspect of our nature is overcome, metaphysical and physical will become one for us I suppose. That’s the thinking that led me to misspeak. We will literally be no longer physical. Physicality binds us to suffering, so it would have to be overcome. I imagine that would be one of the final steps to overcoming suffering. I am sure not many people can even imagine or fathom how such a thing is even coherent. But it makes sense to me. And one day, if we play our cards right and do the prerequisite steps to end suffering, I hope the path will become clear.

The only suffering you can end is your own. Good luck

 

[an anarchist]

The only suffering you can end is your own. Good luck

Indeed. Personally, I’ve given up on trying to save the world and understand now that it is best to just keep my little corner of the world tidy. To do without doing ya know?

 

[oldbadger]

If I am spiritual, it is because I believe in the collective enlightenment (CE). I’ve talked about my conception of the CE plenty of times, starting with my “hi I’m a new member” thread.

Suffering is not inevitable. My belief holds firm. This time around, for my mental health and well being, I won’t be actively trying to start the CE. Instead, I will rather passively support the trajectory towards the CE through being moral and loving. The gods and people I require to worship for this task are different than the ones I sought before to invoke the CE.

Hey saint franky, I’m just using this quote as a launch pad for this thread, hope ya don’t mind

Take this quoted phrase as it is. It means what it says I think, and if not, let pretend it means what I think it is saying for the sake of discussion.

We can never overcome nature implies we are bound to suffering as well as death. Physically bound. Literally bound. But is the binding permanent and inevitable? Or can we transcend above suffering? Physically and literally transcend? I think so. We can’t get from point A to point Z without going through points B-Y first, so I understand if the physical and literal ascension above suffering seems… implausible.

How do we get to point Z, the point beyond suffering? By figuring out what point A is. What is point A? Love is love is love. Be nice to each other. Love one another. It seems so simple yet humanity fails this on a global scale. If man truly loved one another, the world would not be how it is presently. So, for my part, I will focus on being a beacon of love and peace for my spiritual practice.

We can debate two points I think.
1) the efficacy of love in the alleviation of suffering
2) the possibility to literally/physically transcend suffering

Hello anarchist....
I've read your post, and while I do believe in kindness and care I don't think that your proposal can fit with either humanity or the world in general.
For a start you are an 'anarchist' and so you are unlikely to want to accept the rules and laws that communities need to make and follow.
But a review of all the creatures that fly, swim, move,crawl or creep will show you that 'love alone' does not survive....only parental love works naturally and even that can be shockingly absent.