My new (old) faith: the Collective Enlightenment.

[Balthazzar]

They really don't. There are many things that I find difficult to do, that I thoroughly enjoy. That is not suffering.

That is true. Both difficulty and suffering can happen at the same time. But not necessarily. I can experience difficulty without suffering. But can one experience suffering type of adversity without experiencing the difficulty type of adversity? Hmmm. I should think so. Have to think about that one.

Perspectives matter, eh? At what point does difficulty become suffering? After 4 miles on a 40-mile run, maybe? I'd be walking before reaching the one-mile mark, and I might acknowledge suffering present a few miles down the road. Others might breeze through the entire 40 with some difficulty and not be able to truly attest to any suffering. It's different for everyone, and based on ability, so some choose to push themselves more than others might.

 

[ppp]

Perspectives matter, eh? At what point does difficulty become suffering? After 4 miles on a 40-mile run, maybe? I'd be walking before reaching the one-mile mark, and I might acknowledge suffering present a few miles down the road. Others might breeze through the entire 40 with some difficulty and not be able to truly attest to any suffering. It's different for everyone, and based on ability, so some choose to push themselves more than others might.

Oh yeah. Absolutely. Without perspectives there would be no suffering. And I expect that like most human experiences that that point would be hard to nail down. If one enjoys some measure of inflicted pain during sex, is one suffering when one receives it? I think that one could argue either "no", or "yes, but that is the point!"

 

[Kathryn]

When I think about suffering, I think about Corrie Ten Boom or Farrah Fawcett. I don't think either of them asked for or instigated their suffering at all, but most would agree that they suffered all the same.

Or I think of some parents who have lost children, through no fault of their own, and they are suffering. Or I think of some of my own suffering that I never asked for, and certainly didn't cause or deserve in any way, and I sometimes wonder "why?"


TRUE STORY TIME:

One time my youngest daughter was very sick. I mean, VERY sick, as in the doctors told me she probaby had brain damage from her birth and that she probably had cerebral palsy but at the time there was no test for it so I needed to wait till she was closer to a year old when they could tell me whether or not she had it but she was definitely sick. She was also projectile vomiting all the time, which was unsettling and causing her to look odd. People had started staring at her and at me and I could tell they felt sorry for us which frankly made me furious. I remember going to sleep beside her crib, and I also clearly remember sitting on my washer and screaming at God. I was definitely suffering and she probably was too.

So anyway, God allowed me to see the "why" and wow, it was beautiful. I made an appt with the top pediatric neurologist in the state, and I remember that I had to make it for many months out. I will be completely honest, I did see a lot of improvement over those months with my daughter, but I kept the appt. anyway. So afterward, after I got her dressed and all that, my husband and I went in to the doctor's office and the doctor had a huge grin on his face. He said, "Well, your daughter did have a brain INJURY at birth, but she didn't have brain DAMAGE. She has fully recovered, I am pleased to report." I was thrilled and so was my husband. We walked down to the parking garage and as we were walking to our car, the doctor came running up to us from behind, and he literally had tears in his eyes and he said, "I just wanted to tell you how much it meant to me to be able to give you good news. So often, all I can offer parents is bad news. But I could give you good news." Suddenly all my suffering, and my daughter's, made sense to me. And she was not even still sick! But I felt like I needed to be OK with it whether she was or not, if that makes any sense. It wasn't till I reached that stage of acceptance that we got the great news.

By the way, this particular daughter aced the military PT exam and went into the Air Force.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Have you considered that, rather than Christianity being the "base" for these ideas there could be a common cause that is reflected in all (or many) religions? In other words, with A being the cause and B, C, and so on the religions, A -> (B and C and D ...) not B -> (C and D ...)?

I would suggest that the basic tenets that religions suggest for dealing with each other are required for living in groups rather than individually.

Sure, I've considered it and rejected it. Religions may teach some similar ethics to encourage "good behavior" (but even then they're all over the place), but the theologies are totally different. I do not subscribe to the idea that the religions are more or less the same.

 

[shunyadragon]

Are the deer and the ant suffering?

No more or less than the natural suffering human experience. All life with a nervous system can experience suffering.

 

[shunyadragon]

The only suffering you can end is your own. Good luck

I believe there is a concept of intentional suffering and imaginary guilt as in the belief in original sin, which is an unnecessary burden motivated by ancient religious beliefs. Yes, we can give up this suffering.

 

[The Hammer]

I believe there is a concept of intentional suffering and imaginary guilt as in the belief in original sin, which is and unnecessary burden motivated by ancient religious beliefs. Yes, we can give up this suffering.

I agree

 

[oldbadger]

That’s not anarchism. But let’s not explore this tangent.

That's not very enlightening.

 

[GoodAttention]

If I am spiritual, it is because I believe in the collective enlightenment (CE). I’ve talked about my conception of the CE plenty of times, starting with my “hi I’m a new member” thread.

Suffering is not inevitable. My belief holds firm. This time around, for my mental health and well being, I won’t be actively trying to start the CE. Instead, I will rather passively support the trajectory towards the CE through being moral and loving. The gods and people I require to worship for this task are different than the ones I sought before to invoke the CE.

Hey saint franky, I’m just using this quote as a launch pad for this thread, hope ya don’t mind

Take this quoted phrase as it is. It means what it says I think, and if not, let pretend it means what I think it is saying for the sake of discussion.

We can never overcome nature implies we are bound to suffering as well as death. Physically bound. Literally bound. But is the binding permanent and inevitable? Or can we transcend above suffering? Physically and literally transcend? I think so. We can’t get from point A to point Z without going through points B-Y first, so I understand if the physical and literal ascension above suffering seems… implausible.

How do we get to point Z, the point beyond suffering? By figuring out what point A is. What is point A? Love is love is love. Be nice to each other. Love one another. It seems so simple yet humanity fails this on a global scale. If man truly loved one another, the world would not be how it is presently. So, for my part, I will focus on being a beacon of love and peace for my spiritual practice.

We can debate two points I think.
1) the efficacy of love in the alleviation of suffering
2) the possibility to literally/physically transcend suffering

I think the word suffering is good at describing what all humans can and do experience, hence it has a social value but is somewhat inadequate for the personal level.

I believe when we “suffer” we also “long” for relief. Whilst this “longing” is internalised and personal, it differs from suffering as it doesn’t create “degrees” or “levels” of perception.

Longing is more emotive and less cerebral than suffering. It is ever present, either amplified or quieted by the moment.

Collective empathy is the combined quieting of an individual longing. It is a sensation that only we as humans can create for each other, that is healing and euphoric.

Anger and hatred against one other, by design, creates separation, and ultimately more “longing” for those who suffer. Regret and shame for our actions exists as echos of frustration that resonates with our longing.

Collective empathy is “paying it forward”, with each action acknowledging another’s longing before oneself. It is, without fail, the most effective and efficient way to ease the suffering of the moments.