My question at Hand

[Religiousless]

The Christian God has givin all humans of this Earth the power of free will. Meaning there is no predetermined destiny for any of us. You choose your own path. Having said this, the Christian God is also the Alpha and the Omega. The Christian God knows all that ever was and all that ever will be. These are 2 prominent phrases that are within the bible(Not verbatim). They are two of many fundamentals that Christians understand. Now on to the question at hand. Why would an all knowing Christian God create me, all while knowing what my actions are(All knowing God) damn me to Hell or send me to Heaven. Don't make it complex it's a simple question. Technically there is no free will if God knows all(Future and Past). Do not say that God knows all but, gives us free will. It is contradictory.

And if you believe in Predetemined destiny then, if you were on your way to hell then God evidently knew you were headed there in the first place and this is a SICK game with YOU being the pawn. That's no God of mine. My God if I had one to the likes that you all worship would NOT play games. I challenge any Christian to this question that's believes thay may hold the truth that doesn't involve a metaphorical crutch such as "Faith". Faith has nothing to do with this question. Just an answer. the logic is already there and I think that there is no other logical answer but other than the one that is in the question itself. If all goes as planned, and it has not failed me yet. the question should have you going in cerebral circles... Literally...

 

[Scott C.]

The Christian God has givin all humans of this Earth the power of free will. Meaning there is no predetermined destiny for any of us. You choose your own path. Having said this, the Christian God is also the Alpha and the Omega. The Christian God knows all that ever was and all that ever will be. These are 2 prominent phrases that are within the bible(Not verbatim). They are two of many fundamentals that Christians understand. Now on to the question at hand. Why would an all knowing Christian God create me, all while knowing what my actions are(All knowing God) damn me to Hell or send me to Heaven. Don't make it complex it's a simple question. Technically there is no free will if God knows all(Future and Past). Do not say that God knows all but, gives us free will. It is contradictory.

And if you believe in Predetemined destiny then, if you were on your way to hell then God evidently knew you were headed there in the first place and this is a SICK game with YOU being the pawn. That's no God of mine. My God if I had one to the likes that you all worship would NOT play games. I challenge any Christian to this question that's believes thay may hold the truth that doesn't involve a metaphorical crutch such as "Faith". Faith has nothing to do with this question. Just an answer. the logic is already there and I think that there is no other logical answer but other than the one that is in the question itself. If all goes as planned, and it has not failed me yet. the question should have you going in cerebral circles... Literally...

I don't believe in predestination. Why do you say that God's knowing the future contradicts free will. What if God lives outside of time, at least as we know it, and sees the future, as if it's happening now?

If I look out my window and watch a child run into the street and get hit by a car, did I cause it to happen? No, I simply observed it. I do believe that God knows the future, but does not interfere with free will. Perhaps the answer is that God is simply observing the future, as we would observe the present.

 

[tomspug]

The Christian God has givin all humans of this Earth the power of free will. Meaning there is no predetermined destiny for any of us. You choose your own path. Having said this, the Christian God is also the Alpha and the Omega. The Christian God knows all that ever was and all that ever will be. These are 2 prominent phrases that are within the bible(Not verbatim). They are two of many fundamentals that Christians understand. Now on to the question at hand. Why would an all knowing Christian God create me, all while knowing what my actions are(All knowing God) damn me to Hell or send me to Heaven. Don't make it complex it's a simple question. Technically there is no free will if God knows all(Future and Past). Do not say that God knows all but, gives us free will. It is contradictory.

And if you believe in Predetemined destiny then, if you were on your way to hell then God evidently knew you were headed there in the first place and this is a SICK game with YOU being the pawn. That's no God of mine. My God if I had one to the likes that you all worship would NOT play games. I challenge any Christian to this question that's believes thay may hold the truth that doesn't involve a metaphorical crutch such as "Faith". Faith has nothing to do with this question. Just an answer. the logic is already there and I think that there is no other logical answer but other than the one that is in the question itself. If all goes as planned, and it has not failed me yet. the question should have you going in cerebral circles... Literally...

I believe that God gives us free will as an act of love. He doesn't determine anything BY his will, but he is all knowing.

And how to answer the question of WHY God would create us if he knew that we would disobey... You might as well ask why God would create humans at all.

 

[Riverwolf]

I think what the two here are trying to say is that...

God does know what the future is, in that he knows what we're going to do before we do it. BUT he doesn't control what we do. Knowing what we're going to do and controlling what we do are two very different things.

God knows the future, because God is beyond time.

That's what the belief is, if I'm not mistaken. (I'm sure there are those who would disagree)

That being said, understand I'm not a Christian nor do I worship the Lonely God (one of my terms I apply to the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God).

 

[Mister Emu]

Why would an all knowing Christian God create me, all while knowing what my actions are(All knowing God) damn me to Hell or send me to Heaven. Don't make it complex it's a simple question. Technically there is no free will if God knows all(Future and Past). Do not say that God knows all but, gives us free will. It is contradictory

First of all, it isn't so simple as omniscience contradicting free will. Imagine, if you will, that you have the opportunity to travel in time, purely as an observer, to watch an event occur. Given the proper knowledge you would know exactly what they were going to do. Not because of some destiny for them to do so, but because, from your perspective, they have already acted. If God exists atemporally, such perspective would pertain to us as well.

Second is the issue of hell itself. One view is that we all end up in God's love... some experience this as bliss... others as torment...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That's no God of mine. My God if I had one to the likes that you all worship would NOT play games.

I've always found this to be a somewhat laughably petulant comment. If there is a God the following is true: You don't get to have the god you like but, rather, get to decide whether or not to like the god you have. In either event, it says nothing about the existence or non-existence of deity.

 

[Willamena]

Why do you say that God's knowing the future contradicts free will. What if God lives outside of time, at least as we know it, and sees the future, as if it's happening now?

If I look out my window and watch a child run into the street and get hit by a car, did I cause it to happen? No, I simply observed it. I do believe that God knows the future, but does not interfere with free will. Perhaps the answer is that God is simply observing the future, as we would observe the present.

Yes, knowing is not causing; but it's "knowing" at the base of the argument, not "causing". In other words, this sort of rebuttal misses the point, and heads off into left fields.

It's an argument founded in the meaning of the words and the utilization of perspective. "Knowing," for us, is of things that have happened. If from God's all-knowing perspective these things of our future have happened, then they can't not happen. There's no two ways about it. If events in the manner that they will play out are known, then from our perspective they are set. An exercise of will is at least one of those events, and "set" contradicts "free". The alternative is that "knowing" does not describe things from God's perspective, and perhaps a new word is in order (like... "guessing").

 

[Wandered Off]

Foreknowledge itself does not interfere with free will, but the conditions for foreknowledge to exist preclude free will.

What interferes with free will is the pre-existence of a future. If a future already exists from any perspective, then free will has left the building. As Willamena said, it "can't not happen."

If your future "exists" somewhere such that it can be known, then you can't change it.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/40934-would-foreknowledge-contradict-free-will.html

 

[Dunemeister]

Yes, knowing is not causing; but it's "knowing" at the base of the argument, not "causing". In other words, this sort of rebuttal misses the point, and heads off into left fields.

It's an argument founded in the meaning of the words and the utilization of perspective. "Knowing," for us, is of things that have happened. If from God's all-knowing perspective these things of our future have happened, then they can't not happen. There's no two ways about it. If events in the manner that they will play out are known, then from our perspective they are set. An exercise of will is at least one of those events, and "set" contradicts "free". The alternative is that "knowing" does not describe things from God's perspective, and perhaps a new word is in order (like... "guessing").

No, the response answers the questions. A statement is true if and only if the world is relevantly as the statement describes. I know something if and only if it is true and I come by that truth by some mechanism that is successfully designed to issue in true beliefs under certain circumstances which have obtained. Presumably God has such a mechanism, and it works flawlessly all the time (although, unlike ours, it's not 'designed' it just 'is').

If that's the case, God knows every true proposition. If propositions about the future can be true or false (a controversial claim, but let's assume it), God knows all those true ones as well. Now, propositions about our future actions are true BECAUSE OF WHAT WE DO. They are not true because God decides they're true or causes them to be true. WE CAUSE THEM TO BE TRUE. In other words, God's knowledge is dependent (in part) on our free actions.

In fact, we can see this if we take God out of the picture. The question is whether propositions about the future can be true or not. Let's say they can be. If so, there is a truth about my future actions. For instance, take the proposition "I will have cereal for breakfast tomorrow morning." What makes that proposition true? Well, it's true if I in fact have cereal for breakfast tomorrow morning, and false otherwise. And of course, none of us will know its truth until I make my decision tomorrow morning. But there IS a truth about what I will decide. But that mere truth doesn't determine what I do. What I will do determines its truth.

The situation doesn't change if we add a knower such as a psychic or God. The psychic or God knows that the proposition is in fact true, but neither person causes me to act. My action is the reason the proposition's true.

 

[Wandered Off]

The situation doesn't change if we add a knower such as a psychic or God. The psychic or God knows that the proposition is in fact true, but neither person causes me to act. My action is the reason the proposition's true.

Knowing doesn't "cause" the future. Foreknowing would be an effect of the pre-existence of a future, not a cause. That pre-existence is what would interfere with free will, not any foreknowledge that resulted.

 

[Dunemeister]

Knowing doesn't "cause" the future. Foreknowing would be an effect of the pre-existence of a future, not a cause. That pre-existence is what would interfere with free will, not any foreknowledge that resulted.

I'm not sure what a pre-existent future might mean. The future hasn't happened yet (that's what we mean by "future", so how can it "pre-exist").

 

[Wandered Off]

To be known, it must exist.

 

[Willamena]

No, the response answers the questions. A statement is true if and only if the world is relevantly as the statement describes. I know something if and only if it is true and I come by that truth by some mechanism that is successfully designed to issue in true beliefs under certain circumstances which have obtained.

I'm sorry, I am having difficulty getting past the last part of this sentence. Obtained what?

 

[Religiousless]

I've always found this to be a somewhat laughably petulant comment. If there is a God the following is true: You don't get to have the god you like but, rather, get to decide whether or not to like the god you have. In either event, it says nothing about the existence or non-existence of deity.

The statement I made did not refer to a God I like. You should read it again, except proccess it...
"That's no God of mine" Assuming I had one merely stated that the God that I was discussing would not be mine.. Don't make this complex.
And "If I had one to the likes that you all worship" has nothing to do with me Liking a God.. I really think you proccessed the whole statement in error....

 

[Religiousless]

If I look out my window and watch a child run into the street and get hit by a car, did I cause it to happen? No, I simply observed it. I do believe that God knows the future, but does not interfere with free will. Perhaps the answer is that God is simply observing the future, as we would observe the present.

Yes it does contradict free will. You don't understand the statement. You stand and watch the child walk towards the street, you know he is going to get hit by the car but, by you knowing this means that he cannot change that he will get hit by a car. If he did change and stopped before the car made impact with him then this means that the future was NOT him getting hit by the car hence leaving free will out the door.. His future can only be what his future is. By you knowing his future leaves no free will, for whatever future he chooses is already known by you.

Our friend "Wandered off" stated earlier "What interferes with free will is the pre-existence of a future. If a future already exists from any perspective, then free will has left the building. As Willamena said, it "can't not happen.""

 

[Mister Emu]

The existance of an atemporal being does not nessecitate the denial of free will, we could be currently acting on said free will in the various times...

 

[methylatedghosts]

Maybe the problem is not necessarily with God, but with the way we perceive time itself?

If we view time as vertical, rather than horizontal, with everything occuring at once, then perhaps it is not so impossible.

Is it possible that one could catch a glimpse of the future, and then change it, if one doesn't like what one sees? Could God perhaps see an infinite amount of futures for everything, and we simply choose one of them as we get to it? Couldn't God perhaps see for me at 8:30pm tomorrow as so:

Posting on RF
On the way to town
Watching movies
Watching TV
Talking on the phone
Playing guitar
Waking up in hospital...

Could God not see all of those things occuring at once, as separate futures, and as I get closer and closer to 8:30pm I end up choosing one of those. Wouldn't that mean that God knew my future? he KNEW that my future was "watching TV". It also knew that my future was "posting on RF". My future was also "On my way to town".

 

[Religiousless]

Is it possible that one could catch a glimpse of the future, and then change it, if one doesn't like what one sees? Could God perhaps see an infinite amount of futures for everything, and we simply choose one of them as we get to it? Couldn't God perhaps see for me at 8:30pm tomorrow as so:

Negative. Easy answer to this argument. Whatever future that you see for yourself is without a doubt your future. If you could change it, then it would not have been your future when you looked through your Crystal Ball, or whatever is is you used as a medium to the future..The thing is you can't see your future, only God can, therefore, what we may think as "Choice" is merely an illusion.

 

[Luminous]

I don't believe in predestination. Why do you say that God's knowing the future contradicts free will. What if God lives outside of time, at least as we know it, and sees the future, as if it's happening now?

If I look out my window and watch a child run into the street and get hit by a car, did I cause it to happen? No, I simply observed it. I do believe that God knows the future, but does not interfere with free will. Perhaps the answer is that God is simply observing the future, as we would observe the present.

That's like telling people to stop praying and only thank God for their existance and nothing else.

 

[Luminous]

First of all, it isn't so simple as omniscience contradicting free will. Imagine, if you will, that you have the opportunity to travel in time, purely as an observer, to watch an event occur. Given the proper knowledge you would know exactly what they were going to do. Not because of some destiny for them to do so, but because, from your perspective, they have already acted. If God exists atemporally, such perspective would pertain to us as well.

Second is the issue of hell itself. One view is that we all end up in God's love... some experience this as bliss... others as torment...

Wouldn't you kill Hitler? but maybe its like Candid's philosopher teacher thought: All is for the best, in this best of all possible worlds.
if God existed "atemporally" then IT would not be an all-powerful God. then it couldn't do anything about anything. Deists would be right. but
God could not have created anything inside "temporally"