My sister got saved last night

[URAVIP2ME]

............... We are not disputing that the Bible mentions that the nations will be healed, though we might dispute what the authors meant by the term "nations".

Seems to me that the word or term 'nations ' does include ALL nations because God will make wars to cease earth wide - Psalms 46:9.
Micah wrote that nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more at Micah 4:3-4; Isaiah 2:4.
So, to me the ' healing ' of earth's nations as per Revelation 22:2 includes all nations of Earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

2 Timothy describes things that have happened throughout the ages. It is nothing special. So we can ignore that.
Daniel 2 can be interpreted in many ways. How does it describe the political situation of these days?
As I said earlier, Paul already said that the Good news was preached throughout the whole earth in his day. So not a future fulfillment.
Bible translation isn't said to be a sign of the end times. Also the first century christian's didn't need bible translation because they were granted to speak in different languages.Yes they believed Jesus return was still to come at that time.The promised healing and Rev 22:20 are not relevent to the topic at hand.

I find we can't ignore 2 Timothy 3 when it is coupled with Luke 21:11 and Matthew chapter 24.
The political statue of Daniel chapter 2 shows a rise and fall of world powers ending with our day.
We are at the time of the statue's toes, or even more like the time of it's toenails !

In the first century the good news was preached in the then known world of that time frame.
True, for the Jews No translation was needed because the Hebrew Scriptures were in their native language.
The gift of speaking in a foreign language was to kick start the preaching work for the first century.
The good news is now declared on a vast international scale just as Jesus said at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
Not just by the written page, but audio, video and word of mouth.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Seems to me that the word or term 'nations ' does include ALL nations because God will make wars to cease earth wide - Psalms 46:9.
Micah wrote that nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more at Micah 4:3-4; Isaiah 2:4.
So, to me the ' healing ' of earth's nations as per Revelation 22:2 includes all nations of Earth.

Colossians 1:6, NIV:
"that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world--just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God's grace."

Colossians 1:23, NIV:
"if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant."

Romans 10:16-18 NIV:
"16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”[h] 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”"

Romans 16: 25-26 KJV
"25 Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"

 

[Samael_Khan]

I find we can't ignore 2 Timothy 3 when it is coupled with Luke 21:11 and Matthew chapter 24.

The problem is that 2 Timothy just states what has always been recorded regarding the nature of men throughout history. So the attitude of people today is no different from many people in the past.

The political statue of Daniel chapter 2 shows a rise and fall of world powers ending with our day.
We are at the time of the statue's toes, or even more like the time of it's toenails !

No it doesn't, that is an assumption.

In the first century the good news was preached in the then known world of that time frame.

Agreed. They thought that was the world.

True, for the Jews No translation was needed because the Hebrew Scriptures were in their native language.

Almost true. They did create the Greek Septuagint fro Greek Speaking Jews which the NT writers used.

The gift of speaking in a foreign language was to kick start the preaching work for the first century.
The good news is now declared on a vast international scale just as Jesus said at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
Not just by the written page, but audio, video and word of mouth.

And this matters because?

 

[MonkeyFire]

Being religous doesn't denounce aprehension all together it just leaves space for faith to be passive. Fire exist in the air, and creates the light.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

[QUOTE="Israel Khan, post: 6703140, member: 62321"..............And this matters because?[/QUOTE]

The international preaching work 'matters' because it fulfills what Jesus said to do at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
We have reached the point that we are at the ' final phase' of this global work.
This ' matters' because we are nearing the ' final signal ' as found at 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.
The powers that be will be saying," Peace and Security..." but that ' peace ' will prove to be the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9

 

[Samael_Khan]

The international preaching work 'matters' because it fulfills what Jesus said to do at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.

International preaching would be relevant, not the translations and audio and movies etc.

We have reached the point that we are at the ' final phase' of this global work.

Based on what? How long think this final phase would be?

This ' matters' because we are nearing the ' final signal ' as found at 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.

The powers that be will be saying," Peace and Security..." but that ' peace ' will prove to be the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9

Looking at the world and world events, we are definitely not close to anyone saying "Peace and Security". So good luck with that.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

But international preaching is done by reading, word of mouth and listening from the Bible (audio) and Bible dramas (movies) .
In countries where Bible literature is banned, word of mouth (speech) can't be stopped, nor letter writing.
So, Matthew 24:14 is being carried out world wide and No one, nothing can stop it because it is God's will, His purpose that it be done, and it is.

 

[Samael_Khan]

But international preaching is done by reading, word of mouth and listening from the Bible (audio) and Bible dramas (movies) .
In countries where Bible literature is banned, word of mouth (speech) can't be stopped, nor letter writing.
So, Matthew 24:14 is being carried out world wide and No one, nothing can stop it because it is God's will, His purpose that it be done, and it is.

That is teaching yes, but the prophecy doesn't specify type of teaching so they are irrelevent. Also with Youtube being popular around the world, every religion's teachings can be accessed in almost every country, so international preaching then applies to everybody.

Christian denominations in general preach around the world through audio and video as well so this equally applies to them.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That is teaching yes, but the prophecy doesn't specify type of teaching so they are irrelevent. Also with Youtube being popular around the world, every religion's teachings can be accessed in almost every country, so international preaching then applies to everybody. Christian denominations in general preach around the world through audio and video as well so this equally applies to them.

Yes, both the genuine ' wheat ' Christians and the fake ' weed/tares ' Christians exist until the Harvest Time.
The Harvest Time or the ' separating time ' on Earth as found in Matthew 25:31-33.
Included is what Jesus said that the good news of God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) would be included - Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8
Many put God's kingdom as being heaven, but Jesus did Not instruct for heaven to come, rather for God's kingdom to come........
Many teach a literal hell fire but biblical hell is just mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead as Jesus taught at John 11:11-14.
KJV translated the word Gehenna into English as hell fire and that put the flames in the Bible's grave / hell.
When referring to Psalms 37:9-11 Jesus' theme was teaching people will inherit the Earth.
Jesus never taught any rapture, but just as the days of Noah, No Noah raptured.
The end came hard and swift in Noah's day, at Sodom and Gomorrah, and the end came hard and swift when Jerusalem was destroyed in the year 70.
So, that pattern shows the end will come hard and swift , No 7-year tribulation.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Yes, both the genuine ' wheat ' Christians and the fake ' weed/tares ' Christians exist until the Harvest Time.
The Harvest Time or the ' separating time ' on Earth as found in Matthew 25:31-33.
Included is what Jesus said that the good news of God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) would be included - Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8
Many put God's kingdom as being heaven, but Jesus did Not instruct for heaven to come, rather for God's kingdom to come........
Many teach a literal hell fire but biblical hell is just mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead as Jesus taught at John 11:11-14.
KJV translated the word Gehenna into English as hell fire and that put the flames in the Bible's grave / hell.
When referring to Psalms 37:9-11 Jesus' theme was teaching people will inherit the Earth.
Jesus never taught any rapture, but just as the days of Noah, No Noah raptured.
The end came hard and swift in Noah's day, at Sodom and Gomorrah, and the end came hard and swift when Jerusalem was destroyed in the year 70.
So, that pattern shows the end will come hard and swift , No 7-year tribulation.

The flood and Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by miracles, so that suddenness can't be compared to natural events.

Jerusalem was not the same as those events. The tension between the Jews and the Romans was years in the making and the end result was a culmination of that, which is a pretty logical progression.

The siege of Jerusalem also lasted 4 Months before the Romans destroyed the temple. The Bible says the end will come swiftly, but swiftly relative to what? 7 years could be swift compared to 40 years, a second is swift compared to a minute.

A question about the rapture:

From what I remember, in the "God" book, it is said that the anointed who remain on earth will be taken to heaven between the Great Tribulation and Armageddon. Isn't that a "rapture"?

15 Gathering of anointed ones. Both Matthew and Mark recorded Jesus’ statement about the “chosen ones”—spirit-anointed Christians—as part of a series of events that will occur before the outbreak of Armageddon. (See paragraph 7.) Speaking about himself as King, Jesus prophesies: “Then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.” (Mark 13:27; Matt. 24:31) To what act of gathering is Jesus here referring? He is not speaking about the final sealing of the remnant of anointed Christians, which will occur just before the great tribulation begins. (Rev. 7:1-3) Instead, Jesus refers to an event that will take place during the coming great tribulation. Thus, apparently at some point after the start of Satan’s all-out attack on God’s people, anointed ones who still remain on earth will be gathered to heaven.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/gods-kingdom/promises/kingdom-enemies-removed/

 

[URAVIP2ME]

A question about the rapture:
From what I remember, in the "God" book, it is said that the anointed who remain on earth will be taken to heaven between the Great Tribulation and Armageddon. Isn't that a "rapture"?................................../

No, Not rapture but resurrection.
Please remember: 1 Corinthians 15:50 ' flesh...... '( physical ) can Not inherit the kingdom of God.
So, it is Not rapture but resurrection. ( the 'dead raised' means resurrected - verse 52 )
Those called to heaven at the end of this system will Not spend time sleeping in the grave as the rest who are called to heavenly life.
So, when they die they have a quick resurrection ( verse 52) in order to be part of the first or earlier resurrection of Revelation 20:6.
In other words, those who are called to be 'saints' or holy ones ( Daniel 7:18) will be there along with Jesus at the time of Revelation 19:14; Revelation 17:14 B.

The 'executional words from Jesus' mouth' ( Isaiah 11:3-4) will be a miracle and Not classed or compared as a natural event.

 

[Samael_Khan]

No, Not rapture but resurrection.
Please remember: 1 Corinthians 15:50 ' flesh...... '( physical ) can Not inherit the kingdom of God.
So, it is Not rapture but resurrection. ( the 'dead raised' means resurrected - verse 52 )
Those called to heaven at the end of this system will Not spend time sleeping in the grave as the rest who are called to heavenly life.
So, when they die they have a quick resurrection ( verse 52) in order to be part of the first or earlier resurrection of Revelation 20:6.

Wait a minute. In order for one to be resurrected they have to be dead first. The JW organisation officially says that during the great tribulation there will still be anointed alive on earth and they will be gathered, not resurrected. The quick resurrection is already taking place according to your group, as the anointed who have died in the past century immediately get resurrected, so this isn't discussing that.

So then, is the organisation contradicting the scriptures or are they being inconsistent? Are you contradicting them?

The organisation seems to me to teach the rapture these days, as per one of your recent publications which I quoted and provided the JW.org website link to.

The 'executional words from Jesus' mouth' ( Isaiah 11:3-4) will be a miracle and Not classed or compared as a natural event.

From what I understand there has to be a series of events that lead up to this point. Those points would have to be gradual. The execution is miraculous.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Wait a minute. In order for one to be resurrected they have to be dead first. The JW organisation officially says that during the great tribulation there will still be anointed alive on earth and they will be gathered, not resurrected. The quick resurrection is already taking place according to your group, as the anointed who have died in the past century immediately get resurrected, so this isn't discussing that.
So then, is the organisation contradicting the scriptures or are they being inconsistent? Are you contradicting them?...................

An inquiring mind wants to know, which is good, and No Rapture.
Yes, in order to have a resurrection one would have to have died.
Please notice at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33 these people are 'alive' on Earth.
No resurrection needed for the living.

Those of Jesus ' brothers ' (Matthew 25:40) which have that heavenly calling need Not spent time in death - see 1 Corinthians 15:50-53.
Not spend time in death as Jesus' apostles did, but are resurrected at death.
These are Not the figurative ' sheep ' or ' goats ' but they are the 'saints' or holy ones called to heaven, resurrected to heaven, of Daniel 7:18.
The ' sheep ' and ' goats ' are Not Jesus ' brothers ' of Matthew 25:40.
The figurative ' sheep ' of Matthew 25:37 can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth to see calendar Day One of Jesus' 1,000-year reign over Earth.
They will be the foundation of Jesus' promise that humble meek people will inherit the Earth - Psalms 37:9-11; Matthew 5:5.
These living people (sheep) are the ones who come through the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14; Revelation 7:9. They are living people.
No contradiction - www.jw.org

 

[Samael_Khan]

An inquiring mind wants to know, which is good, and No Rapture.
Yes, in order to have a resurrection one would have to have died.
Please notice at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33 these people are 'alive' on Earth.
No resurrection needed for the living.

Those of Jesus ' brothers ' (Matthew 25:40) which have that heavenly calling need Not spent time in death - see 1 Corinthians 15:50-53.
Not spend time in death as Jesus' apostles did, but are resurrected at death.
These are Not the figurative ' sheep ' or ' goats ' but they are the 'saints' or holy ones called to heaven, resurrected to heaven, of Daniel 7:18.
The ' sheep ' and ' goats ' are Not Jesus ' brothers ' of Matthew 25:40.
The figurative ' sheep ' of Matthew 25:37 can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth to see calendar Day One of Jesus' 1,000-year reign over Earth.
They will be the foundation of Jesus' promise that humble meek people will inherit the Earth - Psalms 37:9-11; Matthew 5:5.
These living people (sheep) are the ones who come through the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14; Revelation 7:9. They are living people.
No contradiction - www.jw.org

Is there a link from the organisation saying that the gathering of the anointed still on earth during the Great Tribulation involves them dying first?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Is there a link from the organisation saying that the gathering of the anointed still on earth during the Great Tribulation involves them dying first?

Try www.jw.org and click on to the online library and enter: anointed dying.
Remember: 1 Corinthians 15:50 that ' flesh....' (physical ) can Not inherit the kingdom.....
And Philippians 3:1 is also addressed to Jesus anointed ' brothers' - Philippians 3:20-21.
Since the 'anointed' (Daniel 7:21-22 'saints' 'holy ones') posses the kingdom, then they are resurrected to heaven to be there to be part of the Armageddon War.
The War to end all wars on Earth - Psalms 46:9.

Perhaps you can read on line from the 1988 Book ' Revelation It's Grand Climax at Hand ' chapter 17 pages 100-104.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Try www.jw.org and click on to the online library and enter: anointed dying.
Remember: 1 Corinthians 15:50 that ' flesh....' (physical ) can Not inherit the kingdom.....
And Philippians 3:1 is also addressed to Jesus anointed ' brothers' - Philippians 3:20-21.
Since the 'anointed' (Daniel 7:21-22 'saints' 'holy ones') posses the kingdom, then they are resurrected to heaven to be there to be part of the Armageddon War.
The War to end all wars on Earth - Psalms 46:9.

Perhaps you can read on line from the 1988 Book ' Revelation It's Grand Climax at Hand ' chapter 17 pages 100-104.

From what I remember, the book that I was referencing was released 2 years ago and the gathering if the anointed in the Great Tribulation was new light. So I wouldn't want to go to a 1988 book to confirm such as it has a lot of outdated understanding by the group.
d
With regards to "flesh" inheriting the kingdom there can be two ways of viewing this, such as spirit inheriting the kingdom referring to people who are anointed with the spirit. But besides that, do you believe that Jesus body was resurrected or just his spirit?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

From what I remember, the book that I was referencing was released 2 years ago and the gathering if the anointed in the Great Tribulation was new light. So I wouldn't want to go to a 1988 book to confirm such as it has a lot of outdated understanding by the group.
With regards to "flesh" inheriting the kingdom there can be two ways of viewing this, such as spirit inheriting the kingdom referring to people who are anointed with the spirit. But besides that, do you believe that Jesus body was resurrected or just his spirit?

Thank you for your reply, and I find as in 1988's " Revelation's Grand Climax is at Hand ! " there is No difference as found on page 104.
Paragraph 14 mentions there are those alive at Jesus' presence. The already dead in Christ rise first.... and those still alive do 'finish their earthly course '.
Finish their earthly course but however do Not sleep in death as their predecessors, rather when they die they are instantly changed - 1Cor. 15:50-52; Rev. 14:13.
Two years ago would be 2018, so to refresh my thinking I will go to www.jw.org to see which publication that could be.
New light or a clearer update would be expected because Proverbs 4:18 informs us that spiritual light does grow brighter and brighter.
So, the heavenly resurrection would be about when those with a heavenly calling would still be here on Earth before, during or after the tribulation takes place.
Since Revelation 17:14 informs us the ones who are 'called and chosen'.....are with Jesus, ( Jesus being in Heaven ) thus ALL of the anointed will be resurrected to be part of the time when the heavenly angelic armies at the time of Rev. 19:14 take action; which I find to be in harmony with Daniel chapter 7.

No, Jesus physical body was Not resurrected. God resurrected Jesus back to his pre-human spirit body. - Luke 24:13-43
This is why after Jesus' resurrection he used different materialized bodies to appear at different times before ascending - Acts 1:9

P.S. I see there is a 2018 January Watchtower Magazine pages 12 to 16.
Under the www.jw.org Online Library search box enter 'anointed and the tribulation'.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Thank you for your reply, and I find as in 1988's " Revelation's Grand Climax is at Hand ! " there is No difference as found on page 104.
Paragraph 14 mentions there are those alive at Jesus' presence. The already dead in Christ rise first.... and those still alive do 'finish their earthly course '.
Finish their earthly course but however do Not sleep in death as their predecessors, rather when they die they are instantly changed - 1Cor. 15:50-52; Rev. 14:13.
Two years ago would be 2018, so to refresh my thinking I will go to www.jw.org to see which publication that could be.
New light or a clearer update would be expected because Proverbs 4:18 informs us that spiritual light does grow brighter and brighter.
So, the heavenly resurrection would be about when those with a heavenly calling would still be here on Earth before, during or after the tribulation takes place.
Since Revelation 17:14 informs us the ones who are 'called and chosen'.....are with Jesus, ( Jesus being in Heaven ) thus ALL of the anointed will be resurrected to be part of the time when the heavenly angelic armies at the time of Rev. 19:14 take action; which I find to be in harmony with Daniel chapter 7.

No, Jesus physical body was Not resurrected. God resurrected Jesus back to his pre-human spirit body. - Luke 24:13-43
This is why after Jesus' resurrection he used different materialized bodies to appear at different times before ascending - Acts 1:9

P.S. I see there is a 2018 January Watchtower Magazine pages 12 to 16.
Under the www.jw.org Online Library search box enter 'anointed and the tribulation'.

I find this interesting in a 2015 Watchtower as it seems to refer to my question directly:

"15 Does this mean that there will be a “rapture” of the anointed? Many people in Christendom believe that Christians will be taken to heaven in a human body. They also think that they will see Jesus visibly return to rule the earth. However, the Bible clearly shows that Jesus’ return is invisible when it says: “The sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven” and, Jesus will come “on the clouds of heaven.” (Matthew 24:30) The Bible also says that “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom.” So those who will be taken to heaven will first need to be “changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet.” * (See footnote.) (Read 1 Corinthians 15:50-53.) We do not use the word “rapture” here to describe this event because of its connection to Christendom’s false teaching. However, the faithful anointed still on earth will be gathered together instantly."

(footnote) The physical bodies of the anointed alive at that time will not be taken to heaven. (1 Corinthians 15:48, 49) Their bodies will likely be disposed of in the same way that Jesus’ body was removed.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/ws20150715/rapture-anointed-great-tribulation/

So they are saying that they do not use the word "rapture" because of its connection with nitty gritty details that Christendom adds to the teaching but whether christians are taken bodily or not is not the definition of rapture, as it is just referring to the taking up.

From this paragraph and the footnote, the organisation is saying that the remaining anointed will be instantly taken up and their bodies discarded, but they do not die first.

Another question is: why was Jesus tomb empty if he was only taken up spiritual?

(my additional comment is, since angels can materialise, why would it not be the case that the physical body can dematerialise into a spiritual one?)

Proverbs 4:18 is talking about behaviour and not understanding of doctrine.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I find this interesting in a 2015 Watchtower as it seems to refer to my question directly:
"15 Does this mean that there will be a “rapture” of the anointed? Many people in Christendom believe that Christians will be taken to heaven in a human body. They also think that they will see Jesus visibly return to rule the earth. However, the Bible clearly shows that Jesus’ return is invisible when it says: “The sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven” and, Jesus will come “on the clouds of heaven.” (Matthew 24:30) The Bible also says that “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom.” So those who will be taken to heaven will first need to be “changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet.” * (See footnote.) (Read 1 Corinthians 15:50-53.) We do not use the word “rapture” here to describe this event because of its connection to Christendom’s false teaching. However, the faithful anointed still on earth will be gathered together instantly."
(footnote) The physical bodies of the anointed alive at that time will not be taken to heaven. (1 Corinthians 15:48, 49) Their bodies will likely be disposed of in the same way that Jesus’ body was removed.
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/ws20150715/rapture-anointed-great-tribulation/
So they are saying that they do not use the word "rapture" because of its connection with nitty gritty details that Christendom adds to the teaching but whether christians are taken bodily or not is not the definition of rapture, as it is just referring to the taking up.
From this paragraph and the footnote, the organisation is saying that the remaining anointed will be instantly taken up and their bodies discarded, but they do not die first.
Another question is: why was Jesus tomb empty if he was only taken up spiritual?
(my additional comment is, since angels can materialise, why would it not be the case that the physical body can dematerialise into a spiritual one?)

Rapture was Not about any physical body dematerialising into a spirit body.
Death precedes resurrection of the anointed.
There is No biblical rapture that suddenly Christians will be taken above with automobile drivers, pilots, etc. being snatched out of vehicles.
Such a teaching is that Christians don't expect to be around Earth much longer. (hogwash)
So, we need to know just what is the purpose to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come !
We are Not instructed to pray to be ' taken up' to Jesus, Nor pray to be ' taken away ' to Jesus, but for Jesus to come!
Not a physical return because Jesus informed us that his return would Not be physical according to John14:19.

Rather, Jesus' return is in the sense of giving his attention to Earth and to undo all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon Earth.
Attention in the sense that Jesus' resurrects those who join him in heavenly rule - Revelation 5:9-10; 2:10
Remember: those who are dead in Christ will rise first meaning they have that first or earlier resurrection - Revelation 20:6
Those living on Earth are ' gathered ', so to speak, before Jesus as per Matthew 25:31-33; Revelation 12:7-12; Psalms 37:9-11.
The figurative ' sheep ' have the scriptural hope of going through, Not ' going up' in the great tribulation on Earth - Revelation 7:9, 14
Prophet Isaiah saw No rapture at Isaiah 26:20.