My support for hedonism

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Our moods (tonality) are what dictate our sense of good value and worth in this life and nothing else dictates our sense of good value and worth. Therefore, without our feelings of pleasure, then we can't have any sense of good value or worth in this life since the tonality (mood) of that would either be a depressing mood or an anhedonic mood. Again, people are only fooling themselves into thinking they can find a sense of good value and worth in life without their feelings of pleasure.

There is a difference between just having the thought of good value and worth in your life as opposed to having the actual sense of good value and worth in your life. For example, just tell yourself right now in a completely indifferent mood that your life is good and worth living. Say it as though it is nothing more than just a thought. So as you can see here, that would be nothing more than just a thought. Where the actual sense of good value and worth comes in is through being in a blissful, motivated, or inspired mood. Otherwise, without our feelings of pleasure, then all our thoughts are nothing more than just thoughts no different than that example I gave. You may very well think you perceive good value and worth in your life even while you are feeling depressed or are having anhedonia (absence of pleasure), but that is still nothing more than just the thought of good value and worth and not the actual sense of good value and worth in your life.

So you could choose to do all the great things you want in life and help others out all you want since you care about them despite your absence of pleasure, but as long as you have little to no pleasure, then you will always have little to no sense of good value and worth in your life and little to no sense of good value and worth in doing so.

I will post a response and my reply to it to get my point across:

Response: But you can experience greatness, a sense of life being good and worth living, and you can experience the beauty and transcendence from this life even without your feelings of pleasure.

My Reply: No, you can't. Our expressions reflect our sense of good value, worth, beauty, greatness, and transcendence in life. If I were to look at something beautiful, then the only mindstate that I can achieve from that and the only expressive tone that can be achieved would be some bland, neutral, and dead robotic-like tone such as: "Gee, this is something beautiful and great." But if I were to have my feelings of pleasure right now, then my expression would be: "Wow, this is something great and beautiful!" Even if I were to express myself with the latter quote without my feelings of pleasure, that expression would be faked and would still have the mindset (tonality) of the former quote. So this is the reason why you cannot have any sense of good value, meaning, or worth in your life without your feelings of pleasure since it would all still have that same robotic and dead tonality to it. People are only fooling themselves into thinking that their expressions and thoughts do have a life-filled genuine expression to them without their feelings of pleasure. The fact is, it is all nothing more than the "thinking" experience. All our experiences and such in life without our feelings of pleasure or suffering would all have that robotic-like and dead tonality to it since it is only our feelings of pleasure that give us and our lives a life-filled tonality. They are the only things that give us and our lives a sense of greatness, beauty, good value, and worth in life. Our feelings are the only things that genuinely define our lives as good or bad and are the only things that give us a sense of either good value (feelings of pleasure) or bad value (feelings of suffering).

I will just add one more thing here. To say that there is a form of pleasure, joy, and happiness through our thoughts and everything else in life without our actual feelings of pleasure would be no different than saying that there is a form of sight or hearing through our thoughts and everything else in life alone without our actual sight or hearing. That a blind or deaf person can see or hear through his/her thoughts alone. Therefore, that would be false. Pleasure can be only one thing here and it is something scientific and not something we personally define in life. Pleasure can only be the part of our brains that experience feelings of pleasure. Therefore, without your feelings of pleasure, then you cannot be happy or joyful.

 

[LuisDantas]

You approve of hedonism, but not of atheism?!?

 

[Mequa]

I support the Epicurean form of hedonism, myself.

Mental pleasure is more important than physical pleasure, with particular emphasis on expunging mental/emotional pain (thus a therapeutic / self-help / personal development approach).

Character development is important as a means to the end of maximising individual pleasure and minimising individual misery. I go for a form of enlightened personal ethical egoism which does not exclude concern for others, when this instrumentally aligns with my own well-being - emotional, psychological and physical.

Yet this is firmly rooted in rational self-interest, which includes a hedonic criterion.

I reject the hard mind/body distinction. Mental pleasure is ultimately a form of physical pleasure as it's all rooted in the physical body. I take a philosophical materialist stance here.

The decision making process is rooted in a form of empiricism. This does not exclude emotion either, but accepts that not only sense experience, and one's natural cognitive apparatus, but also emotion, always provides valid data - it's only when said data is misinterpreted that error arises. This is what makes a rational hedonism possible.

Validate sense data, validate the utility of one's cognitive apparatus, and validate one's emotions, and use the data therein in one's practical reasoning process to maximise one's pleasure and minimise one's pain, both short-term and long-term.

Naturally, this empirical method can easily accommodate modern scientific research on happiness and well-being, too. This process is also used to test the utility of concern for others and social virtues towards one's egoistic hedonist ends. Furthermore, it is elective. This is my choice of how to live, not binding on others.

My own neo-Epicurean ethical approach in a nutshell.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

You approve of hedonism, but not of atheism?!?

If you are a hedonist, then of course an eternal life of pleasure would be the only greatest life for you. So it would be best for hedonists to have the belief in this afterlife and to want to live on for eternal pleasure.

 

[LuisDantas]

If you say so. I would not know.

 

[Spockrates]

Our moods (tonality) are what dictate our sense of good value and worth in this life and nothing else dictates our sense of good value and worth. Therefore, without our feelings of pleasure, then we can't have any sense of good value or worth in this life since the tonality (mood) of that would either be a depressing mood or an anhedonic mood. Again, people are only fooling themselves into thinking they can find a sense of good value and worth in life without their feelings of pleasure.

There is a difference between just having the thought of good value and worth in your life as opposed to having the actual sense of good value and worth in your life. For example, just tell yourself right now in a completely indifferent mood that your life is good and worth living. Say it as though it is nothing more than just a thought. So as you can see here, that would be nothing more than just a thought. Where the actual sense of good value and worth comes in is through being in a blissful, motivated, or inspired mood. Otherwise, without our feelings of pleasure, then all our thoughts are nothing more than just thoughts no different than that example I gave. You may very well think you perceive good value and worth in your life even while you are feeling depressed or are having anhedonia (absence of pleasure), but that is still nothing more than just the thought of good value and worth and not the actual sense of good value and worth in your life.

So you could choose to do all the great things you want in life and help others out all you want since you care about them despite your absence of pleasure, but as long as you have little to no pleasure, then you will always have little to no sense of good value and worth in your life and little to no sense of good value and worth in doing so.

I will post a response and my reply to it to get my point across:

Response: But you can experience greatness, a sense of life being good and worth living, and you can experience the beauty and transcendence from this life even without your feelings of pleasure.

My Reply: No, you can't. Our expressions reflect our sense of good value, worth, beauty, greatness, and transcendence in life. If I were to look at something beautiful, then the only mindstate that I can achieve from that and the only expressive tone that can be achieved would be some bland, neutral, and dead robotic-like tone such as: "Gee, this is something beautiful and great." But if I were to have my feelings of pleasure right now, then my expression would be: "Wow, this is something great and beautiful!" Even if I were to express myself with the latter quote without my feelings of pleasure, that expression would be faked and would still have the mindset (tonality) of the former quote. So this is the reason why you cannot have any sense of good value, meaning, or worth in your life without your feelings of pleasure since it would all still have that same robotic and dead tonality to it. People are only fooling themselves into thinking that their expressions and thoughts do have a life-filled genuine expression to them without their feelings of pleasure. The fact is, it is all nothing more than the "thinking" experience. All our experiences and such in life without our feelings of pleasure or suffering would all have that robotic-like and dead tonality to it since it is only our feelings of pleasure that give us and our lives a life-filled tonality. They are the only things that give us and our lives a sense of greatness, beauty, good value, and worth in life. Our feelings are the only things that genuinely define our lives as good or bad and are the only things that give us a sense of either good value (feelings of pleasure) or bad value (feelings of suffering).

I will just add one more thing here. To say that there is a form of pleasure, joy, and happiness through our thoughts and everything else in life without our actual feelings of pleasure would be no different than saying that there is a form of sight or hearing through our thoughts and everything else in life alone without our actual sight or hearing. That a blind or deaf person can see or hear through his/her thoughts alone. Therefore, that would be false. Pleasure can be only one thing here and it is something scientific and not something we personally define in life. Pleasure can only be the part of our brains that experience feelings of pleasure. Therefore, without your feelings of pleasure, then you cannot be happy or joyful.

Hi, Matt. I'm curious: Did you feel any pleasure in writing this? If so, what made it pleasurable for you? If not, why did you write it?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Hi, Matt. I'm curious: Did you feel any pleasure in writing this? If so, what made it pleasurable for you? If not, why did you write it?

First off, I cannot experience any pleasure from this since I have chronic anhedonia (absence of pleasure) which is a negative symptom of schizophrenia. But me writing this would only be the thought of good value and worth in doing this and not any actual sense of good value and worth. It would not be any sense of pleasure, joy, happiness, etc. either. The fact is, we can still choose to do things in life that would bring us pleasure. But here again, it would be no different than a biological robot performing tasks simply because he/she is aware that certain things need to be done in life. But like I said, that is not having any sense of good value and worth in life though.

 

[Spockrates]

First off, I cannot experience any pleasure from this since I have chronic anhedonia (absence of pleasure) which is a negative symptom of schizophrenia.

I find your writing clear, concise and cogent.

But me writing this would only be the thought of good value and worth in doing this and not any actual sense of good value and worth.

By thought, do you mean an understanding that it is valuable to others? By sense, do you mean a feeling of satisfaction at having accomplished something valuable to others?

It would not be any sense of pleasure, joy, happiness, etc. either. The fact is, we can still choose to do things in life that would bring us pleasure. But here again, it would be no different than a biological robot performing tasks simply because he/she is aware that certain things need to be done in life. But like I said, that is not having any sense of good value and worth in life though.

Well, Buddhists, Stohic philosophers and the science fiction character Spock all sought to obtain the mental state you describe--a state of logic and self-control uninhibited by illogical emotion that tends to make one say or do that which they know they should not. Emotions have as many cons as pros, I think. Giving into them can lead one to one of the most undesired of feelings--regret. Not sure if the author, but I think his prose went something like this: "Of all the thoughts of mice or men, the saddest of these is what might have been."

A lack of emotion can also make you extremely valuable to the highly emotional people who seek your advice. For your lack of feeling can help you keep calm and objective in what others find to be overwhelmingly stressful situation. You might be the peaceful rock to whom they may cling to get them through an emotional storm that might otherwise do them great harm.

If you believe in God, this might be this diety's purpose for you. What do you think?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

But you act as though that state of logic and self-control is a good thing and you would be attributing a sense of good value and worth in saying that in an uplifting and optimistic tone. The thing is, our feelings of pleasure are the only things that define our sense of good value and worth in life. Therefore, people with anhedonia (absence of pleasure) cannot have that sense of good value and worth in their lives. And yes, what I mean by thought is the understanding that something is valuable to someone else. Our sense of good value and worth can only be defined through our feelings of pleasure. Therefore, those science fiction movies and such would truly be a science fiction then because it is fiction to think that there is a sense of good value and worth in having no feelings of pleasure when the scientific fact is that only our feelings of pleasure define our sense of good value and worth in life. As I said before, I live life to experience its greatness and beauty and to not just simply observe that greatness and beauty like some intellectual biological robot.


All our thoughts without our feelings of pleasure are all just the "thinking" experience and can't be any experience of any sense of joy, pleasure, inspiration, motivation, or sense of good value and worth in our lives as I've said before and am saying here again to make myself clear here as well. If you have the thought of having a sense of good value and worth in your life without your feelings of pleasure, then that does not change the experience of that said thought over to an actual sense of good value and worth in your life. The fact is, all our thoughts and all our other conscious experiences (brain functions) besides our feelings of pleasure and suffering are all neutral experiences that have no sense of good or bad value to them without our feelings of pleasure or suffering. Our thoughts might all be different words, phrases, images, sounds, etc. So they are different in that regard. But they are all the same in the sense that they are all just thoughts and are all just the "thinking" experience and can never be any other experience such as pleasure, joy, motivation, happiness, love, beauty, or a sense of good value and worth in life. Again, the only thing that can give them a sense of good value and worth would be our feelings of pleasure.

The fact is, there is a difference between the functions of our brains that experience a sense of good value and worth as opposed to the functions of our brains that experience just the thoughts of having good value and worth in our lives. The thoughts of us having good value and worth in of themselves without our feelings of pleasure are not the same as the actual sense of good value and worth in our lives. Our sense of good value and worth can only come from our feelings of pleasure and nothing else.

Now one last thing is that even though people with no feelings of pleasure can only just have thoughts of good value and worth in their lives, then others might say something such as: "Well, it is the thought that counts." But here again, these people are attributing a good sense of value towards that since they are saying that in an uplifting and optimistic tone. The fact is, people with anhedonia can't have that sense of good value in their lives. So for them and people like me, it should be something like: "Well, the thought just doesn't matter at all then and our lives have no sense of good value or worth without our feelings of pleasure. For that very reason, I sure hope you and other people who suffer from anhedonia do recover their feelings of pleasure." Our thoughts without our feelings of pleasure only matter in a neutral sense. This means that we can look at them as though they do matter and function how we normally would in life and live for other great things and help others out. But since it would be no different than a biological robot performing and choosing tasks, then this is the reason why our thoughts and everything else in life only matter in a neutral sense since we cannot derive any sense of good value and worth from those things without our feelings of pleasure.

 

[Spockrates]

But you act as though that state of logic and self-control is a good thing and you would be attributing a sense of good value and worth in saying that in an uplifting and optimistic tone. The thing is, our feelings of pleasure are the only things that define our sense of good value and worth in life. Therefore, people with anhedonia (absence of pleasure) cannot have that sense of good value and worth in their lives. And yes, what I mean by thought is the understanding that something is valuable to someone else. Our sense of good value and worth can only be defined through our feelings of pleasure. Therefore, those science fiction movies and such would truly be a science fiction then because it is fiction to think that there is a sense of good value and worth in having no feelings of pleasure when the scientific fact is that only our feelings of pleasure define our sense of good value and worth in life. As I said before, I live life to experience its greatness and beauty and to not just simply observe that greatness and beauty like some intellectual biological robot.


All our thoughts without our feelings of pleasure are all just the "thinking" experience and can't be any experience of any sense of joy, pleasure, inspiration, motivation, or sense of good value and worth in our lives as I've said before and am saying here again to make myself clear here as well. If you have the thought of having a sense of good value and worth in your life without your feelings of pleasure, then that does not change the experience of that said thought over to an actual sense of good value and worth in your life. The fact is, all our thoughts and all our other conscious experiences (brain functions) besides our feelings of pleasure and suffering are all neutral experiences that have no sense of good or bad value to them without our feelings of pleasure or suffering. Our thoughts might all be different words, phrases, images, sounds, etc. So they are different in that regard. But they are all the same in the sense that they are all just thoughts and are all just the "thinking" experience and can never be any other experience such as pleasure, joy, motivation, happiness, love, beauty, or a sense of good value and worth in life. Again, the only thing that can give them a sense of good value and worth would be our feelings of pleasure.

The fact is, there is a difference between the functions of our brains that experience a sense of good value and worth as opposed to the functions of our brains that experience just the thoughts of having good value and worth in our lives. The thoughts of us having good value and worth in of themselves without our feelings of pleasure are not the same as the actual sense of good value and worth in our lives. Our sense of good value and worth can only come from our feelings of pleasure and nothing else.

Now one last thing is that even though people with no feelings of pleasure can only just have thoughts of good value and worth in their lives, then others might say something such as: "Well, it is the thought that counts." But here again, these people are attributing a good sense of value towards that since they are saying that in an uplifting and optimistic tone. The fact is, people with anhedonia can't have that sense of good value in their lives. So for them and people like me, it should be something like: "Well, the thought just doesn't matter at all then and our lives have no sense of good value or worth without our feelings of pleasure. For that very reason, I sure hope you and other people who suffer from anhedonia do recover their feelings of pleasure." Our thoughts without our feelings of pleasure only matter in a neutral sense. This means that we can look at them as though they do matter and function how we normally would in life and live for other great things and help others out. But since it would be no different than a biological robot performing and choosing tasks, then this is the reason why our thoughts and everything else in life only matter in a neutral sense since we cannot derive any sense of good value and worth from those things without our feelings of pleasure.

So are you saying this? What makes a thought, word or deed valuable are the feelings it produces in the one thinking, saying or doing it. If the feelings it produces are pleasurable, then the thought, word or deed has a positive value. If the feelings they produce are painful, then they have a negative value. If they produce no feelings, then they have no value at all.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

First off, before I address your point here in this post, I will also bring up some imagined responses and my replies to them. Then I will get to your response:

Response: You don't have to have the sense of good value or worth in your life. Just having the thought of good value and worth in your life is good enough.

My Reply: No, it is not. We always rely on our sense of good and bad value to live, make choices, etc. because that is just how we function as human beings. That is a scientific fact. Since that sense of good and bad value can only come from our feelings of pleasure and suffering, then people are only just fooling themselves here into thinking that they are just fine with a life of no pleasure and can find reason to move on and make the best of life anyway.

Response: That is just your own personal opinion and you think this way because you are a different person and your mind is wired differently. Your mind is wired in a hedonistic way while our minds are wired in non-hedonistic ways.

My Reply: This is false. The scientific fact that only our feelings of pleasure define our sense of good value and worth in life while only our feelings of suffering define our sense of bad value and worth in life applies to everyone since that is how the brain works. Ask an intelligent neurologist if you do not believe me.

Response: So are you saying this? What makes a thought, word or deed valuable are the feelings it produces in the one thinking, saying or doing it. If the feelings it produces are pleasurable, then the thought, word or deed has a positive value. If the feelings they produce are painful, then they have a negative value. If they produce no feelings, then they have no value at all.

My Reply: I am saying this. The good and bad thoughts without our feelings of pleasure or suffering can be considered to have good and bad value since that is what they are. They are meanings of good and bad we create in our lives. However, we can't just have good and bad thoughts in life since that is not enough. We solely rely on a sense of good and bad as I've said before to either find reason to move on and make the best of life or to find reason to refrain from doing something. Again, we could still choose to make the best of life anyway and refrain from doing things through just our thoughts alone without our feelings of pleasure or suffering. But in reality, we wouldn't be truly finding any reason to live and such and would be nothing more than like a biological robot choosing his/her thoughts and actions. People would only be fooling themselves to somehow think living this way is a genuine reason to live.

 

[Spockrates]

First off, before I address your point here in this post, I will also bring up some imagined responses and my replies to them. Then I will get to your response:

Response: You don't have to have the sense of good value or worth in your life. Just having the thought of good value and worth in your life is good enough.

My Reply: No, it is not. We always rely on our sense of good and bad value to live, make choices, etc. because that is just how we function as human beings. That is a scientific fact. Since that sense of good and bad value can only come from our feelings of pleasure and suffering, then people are only just fooling themselves here into thinking that they are just fine with a life of no pleasure and can find reason to move on and make the best of life anyway.

Response: That is just your own personal opinion and you think this way because you are a different person and your mind is wired differently. Your mind is wired in a hedonistic way while our minds are wired in non-hedonistic ways.

My Reply: This is false. The scientific fact that only our feelings of pleasure define our sense of good value and worth in life while only our feelings of suffering define our sense of bad value and worth in life applies to everyone since that is how the brain works. Ask an intelligent neurologist if you do not believe me.

Response: So are you saying this? What makes a thought, word or deed valuable are the feelings it produces in the one thinking, saying or doing it. If the feelings it produces are pleasurable, then the thought, word or deed has a positive value. If the feelings they produce are painful, then they have a negative value. If they produce no feelings, then they have no value at all.

My Reply: I am saying this. The good and bad thoughts without our feelings of pleasure or suffering can be considered to have good and bad value since that is what they are. They are meanings of good and bad we create in our lives. However, we can't just have good and bad thoughts in life since that is not enough. We solely rely on a sense of good and bad as I've said before to either find reason to move on and make the best of life or to find reason to refrain from doing something. Again, we could still choose to make the best of life anyway and refrain from doing things through just our thoughts alone without our feelings of pleasure or suffering. But in reality, we wouldn't be truly finding any reason to live and such and would be nothing more than like a biological robot choosing his/her thoughts and actions. People would only be fooling themselves to somehow think living this way is a genuine reason to live.

Yes, I agree. Thinking about living is not really living. For when someone dreams, she is not living, but merely imagining that she is living! What we say and do--now that is truly living. It is an expression of our thoughts--words communicating to others what we think and actions communicating as well, since they speak louder than words. I suppose living might be defined as an expression of thinking.

So please tell me your thoughts about words and deeds: If you feel no pleasure when you say them and even feel nothing at all when you do them, does that mean those words and deeds have no value to you?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

What I said about us not "living" (not having any sense of good and bad value) through just thinking alone, this also applies to our choices in life as well and our personality expressions. All of those things and everything in this entire life would have no sense of good or bad value to us without our feelings of pleasure and suffering since it is only our feelings of pleasure and our feelings of suffering that define our sense of good and bad value in life and nothing else. So just like with those thoughts in which they would be "just thoughts" without our feelings, our actions would also be "just actions" and this life would be "just life." To those people who have no feelings of pleasure, anyway. But for the other people it can be something good since they can derive feelings of pleasure from your choices and such.

 

[Spockrates]

What I said about us not "living" (not having any sense of good and bad value) through just thinking alone, this also applies to our choices in life as well and our personality expressions. All of those things and everything in this entire life would have no sense of good or bad value to us without our feelings of pleasure and suffering since it is only our feelings of pleasure and our feelings of suffering that define our sense of good and bad value in life and nothing else. So just like with those thoughts in which they would be "just thoughts" without our feelings, our actions would also be "just actions" and this life would be "just life." To those people who have no feelings of pleasure, anyway. But for the other people it can be something good since they can derive feelings of pleasure from your choices and such.

And are you of the opinion that words that are "just words" and actions that are "just actions" and lives that is "just life" have no value because no pleasure is felt by the ones speaking, doing and living them? Or do they have no value for some other reason?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

They have good value. But that good value would not be anything without our feelings of pleasure to give us a sense of good value and worth from that in our lives. So really, I think in a way, everything would have no good value or worth to us without our feelings of pleasure. They do. It's just that we can't be a part of that greatness, beauty, and good value without our feelings of pleasure.

 

[Spockrates]

They have good value. But that good value would not be anything without our feelings of pleasure to give us a sense of good value and worth from that in our lives. So really, I think in a way, everything would have no good value or worth to us without our feelings of pleasure. They do. It's just that we can't be a part of that greatness, beauty, and good value without our feelings of pleasure.

Excellent. I now have a clearer understanding of what you are saying. I do not have the experience of it, for although I have lesser feelings than most, I have never experienced just living all the time. I have, however at times felt pain rather than pleasure for things I have said and done.

So then, shall we try to prove your theory that words and deeds--that is, life--have no value, no greatness, no goodness, no worth or beauty to the one who takes no pleasure in them? I have an example in mind to put your idea to the test if you care to consider it with me. What do you say? We have nothing to lose but, perhaps our ignorance.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Sure, go ahead. I am absolutely convinced right now though that I can't have any sense of good value and worth in my life since I have no feelings of pleasure whatsoever 24/7.

 

[Spockrates]

What I have in mind is Jesus Christ. Specifically the events leading to his death. They are an illustration I think we might use to help us--a laboratory so to speak to test your idea. For example:

38 Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”

39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Couldn’t you men keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter.

(Matthew 26)
​

Please tell me: Would you say Jesus was experiencing pleasure or pain contemplating his approaching death?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

If Jesus felt feelings of pleasure, then he would obviously be experiencing pleasure. If he felt feelings of suffering, then he would be experiencing suffering. Only the feelings of pleasure and suffering can be considered pleasure and suffering. Otherwise, if you had the thought of pleasure and didn't experience any feelings of pleasure, then that would just be the thought of pleasure and not the actual experience of pleasure. Same thing for suffering in that if you are having thoughts of suffering without feelings of suffering, then you would be just having the thought of suffering and not the actual experience of it. Pleasure and suffering are scientific as I've said before and can only be the functions of our brains that experience the actual feelings of pleasure and suffering.

 

[Spockrates]

If Jesus felt feelings of pleasure, then he would obviously be experiencing pleasure. If he felt feelings of suffering, then he would be experiencing suffering. Only the feelings of pleasure and suffering can be considered pleasure and suffering. Otherwise, if you had the thought of pleasure and didn't experience any feelings of pleasure, then that would just be the thought of pleasure and not the actual experience of pleasure. Same thing for suffering in that if you are having thoughts of suffering without feelings of suffering, then you would be just having the thought of suffering and not the actual experience of it. Pleasure and suffering are scientific as I've said before and can only be the functions of our brains that experience the actual feelings of pleasure and suffering.

"My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death." I'm thinking the opposite of pleasure. You must be thinking the same?

Now remember what you said (or please correct me if I misunderstood): It is pleasure--not an absense of pleasure nor pain--that makes words or deeds lack value, meaning, goodness and beauty for the one who says or does such pleasureless things. So is it safe to say this sleepless night alone in anguish lacked any value, meaning, goodness and beauty for Jesus?