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My Thoughts on Abortion

Excaljnur

Green String
DISCAIMER: The opinions and claims that I choose to put under the label Conservative ideology and values may not be accurate or representative to some people, but I needed an umbrella term to connect each of the issues to show why they are inconsistent and resemble dogmatic beliefs.

What really concerns me about pro-life advocates is their inconsistency in believing that they have the right to -- and are willing to give the government the right to -- tell other people what to do with their own bodies.

Yet, the same people don't want the government to tell them what to do with their firearms. Given that this is one occasion in which many people are willing to give the government jurisdiction over their lives, I can't help but notice that it burdens women significantly more than men (particularly the man who did the impregnating), and that this reflects a patriarchal (or male-as-norm) worldview that women's duties and purpose in life are prescribed by their biological gender. Thus, the "natural order" and responsibility to the unborn child arguments are flawed in the sense that the patriarchal bias (explained above), places the biological responsibility to carry children above the perceived as less relevant (but actually immensely more relevant) responsibilities that the woman has to not only herself, but perhaps her spouse, other children, other family, the community and other social and financial responsibilities.

This leads me to the conclusion that the Pro-life anti-abortion movement's core is essentially "putting women in their place". The notion that women should not be allowed the fundamental (fundamental to the issue of abortion and to gender equality) choice completely encapsulates the prevalence of patriarchal influence and its insidious implications upon the American consciousness.

To deny the connections I made and to remain true to the claims and argument that; given that (1) having an abortion is analogous to killing a fully developed human being, and (2) killing a human being is morally wrong, therefore, (3) abortions are always wrong (except in cases of rape, incest, and life endangering circumstances), is to not understand the scope of abortions or to not acknowledge the implications of limiting (e.g., access to, banning, etc) abortions on the social and political equality of women. To except this Pro-life argument willingly and informatively seems to indicate a dogmatic belief that the patriarchal worldview is morally salient and that women’s politically equal opportunity (as men) to achieve success in life or pursue happiness is of less importance and should be compromised for completing their biological purpose.

It is abundantly clear that the pro-life movement stands upon two pillars: its emphasis in its morally objective authority (which it wants the nation to adopt as law), but also to downplay the significance of a woman’s other responsibilities. The methods to downplay a woman’s other responsibilities include: labeling them as “inconveniences”, excessively personifying a fetus, often by calling it a child and not a fetus, describing the abortive process as torturing a child (again with excessive personification), by emphasizing the technical language when describing explaining when life begins, but neglecting to describe the abortive process with technical language or to refer to the unborn child as a fetus, as opposed to a “living human child”, in some cases which connotes not only having already been born, but also a development past that of a newborn baby at the least. If you are not careful you may buy into the over embellished rhetoric which serves to draw your greater sympathies to the fetus and to minimize your concern for the well-being or unwanted physical, psychological and emotional burden of the mother or any other people who will be significantly affected by the birth of an unwanted child, by referring to these collective undesirable and potentially obstructive affects as “inconveniences”.

If the acknowledgment of the various prevalent forms of rhetoric are enough to manifest a difficulty in denying the effect of Pro-life’s arguments and recognize them as dangerously persuasive because of the appeal to emotion, but flawed nonetheless in it downplaying a woman’s significantly greater responsibilities, then consider how it is connected to pushing an objective morality into law. Having an abortion is never a simple decision, nor is it ever planned as a contraceptive method. It involves the consideration of many factors that together make it a life-altering decision. And as with all decision that affect oneself (and others), it is a moral decision. It is important to understand that an objective answer to whether or not having an abortion is right or wrong is very rare, if not impossible, to come to, unless the reasoning is based in religious (or dogmatic) belief.

Conservative values and an exorbitant use of rhetoric has led to a difficulty in understanding how significant Pro-lifer’s portrayal of a fetus’ sensations, and even their desires, their motivations, their decisions and their beliefs are. Considering the mental capacity of a fetus is similar to that of any mammal in the womb, it is obvious how easily Pro-life advocates conflate the issue of abortion. It is also a shame that they make it more of a negative and traumatic experience that it already is.

Following from the effect that Pro-life advocates have on the aftermath of having an unwanted child is to shame the mother into thinking that they should have known better and practiced better sexual responsibility. This advice flies in the face of the evidence that more and more schools are selecting to teach abstinence-only education. Also, the schools that do teach sexual education elect to emphasize abstinence and do not update their sex-ED information. This leads many young teens to into early adulthood without a sufficient understanding of the use of protection, contraception or a basic knowledge of safe sexual practices. The inconsistency should become obvious that we do not teach our youth proper sexual education, but hold them responsible for their “irresponsible” sexual activity, and consequently punish a future child with a substandard upbringing. The unsound justification that many Pro-life advocates use is that they are responsible for their “mistakes” but this conclusion rests upon the false premise that they knew better or were taught better.

Although improving teaching and correcting sexual education is intended to decrease the amount of unplanned children and abortions, it does not follow that abortions should eventually be illegalized completely or limited even more on moral grounds. Both issues are related, but they are both based on different problems. Abortion prevalence is significantly correlated to the increase in abstinence-only education and a simultaneous decrease in proper sexual education; while the anti-abortion (Pro-life) position rests on the dogma that if a woman has an abortion, then their moral sense is either misguided, corrupt or immoral. This dogma is situating the Pro-life choice as the unconditional morally right choice, which in this case, is to say, that the pro-choice alternative is morally wrong.

This moral position in favor of “life” is ironically held by some of the congressmen who believe capital punishment must be extended to drug offenders and that collateral damage inflicted by drone strikes in the Middle East are “negligible losses”. Although these two observations are very general, extreme and oversimplified, I’m not only addressing the extreme anti-abortion position, but also the abortion only before the end of the first trimester position.


I believe:

1) Sexual education should be improved and have a greater scope as well as more accurate information regarding protection against STD/I’s and contraception methods.

2) Having an abortion may be the right thing to do given certain circumstances (e.g., not just in cases of rape, incest and when the mother’s life is in danger).

3) Aborting the fetus is not the same as killing an [EDIT: developed] human being.

4) The abortive process should be discouraged after mid-way through the second trimester because it becomes more dangerous to the mothers health and may be personally unethical for many doctors.


The moral framework of conservative ideology and values is inevitably tied to the Pro-life arguments, which are most apparent in the abstinence-only education and restricting contraception, as well as, limiting women’s equality to choose a pursuit of happiness as opposed to constricting her choice.


Thoughts? Serious responses are appreciated.


Thank You
 
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Excaljnur

Green String
You seem not to realize that all pro-life people are the same and we're not all conservatives, either.
I'm not saying that all pro-life people are the same and I'm inviting opposing arguments. I also thought I was pretty clear in not addressing conservatives with my labeled disclaimer. And I was only referring to some of the points often used and positions often held by Pro-life advocates. I argued that the basis of these specific Pro-life arguments are based in dogmas similar to, if not shared by, some conservative ideologies and values: patriarchalism and objective morality. Perhaps I should put the disclaimer at the top so people who don't read the whole post don't take certain terms out of context.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
3) Aborting the fetus is not the same as killing a human being
This is the linchpin of your argument. But it is wrong. Human beings begin with an egg being merged with a sperm. Killing a human being at that stage might not be the same as killing an adult human being, but it absolutely is killing a human being.
The question then is which humans are dispensable. We have a miserable track record on that one. Most of us dislike ISIS' answer, but it is rather common in history.

I will agree with you about what people usually mean by Pro-lifer. Antiabortion is not the same thing. One can't support capital punishment, preemptive war, environmental degradation and the many other ways people choose death for other human beings and really be pro life.
But there ya have it.
Tom
 

Excaljnur

Green String
This is the linchpin of your argument. But it is wrong. Human beings begin with an egg being merged with a sperm. Killing a human being at that stage might not be the same as killing an adult human being, but it absolutely is killing a human being.
The question then is which humans are dispensable. We have a miserable track record on that one. Most of us dislike ISIS' answer, but it is rather common in history.

I will agree with you about what people usually mean by Pro-lifer. Antiabortion is not the same thing. One can't support capital punishment, preemptive war, environmental degradation and the many other ways people choose death for other human beings and really be pro life.
But there ya have it.
Tom
Good Point. Its interesting that you say that, though, because I'm thinking now that none of my argument even rests upon the fetus not being a human being. So with regard to which humans are dispensable in the context of abortions, rephrased: When is killing fetuses morally permissible?

And to answer that question, I'd re-post my OP to argue why the claim that "killing in the case of abortions is never morally permissible" is inconsistent as demonstrated in the OP and based in two specific dogmatic beliefs: patriarchalism and objective morality.
 
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Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
I'm really puzzled why the west comes up with such expressions as pro-life and pro-choice. All we have to do is to be considerate, to be passionate, to be humane. I believe we should consider both the mother and the being inside of her. The best way of life in my beliefs is to be rational/in the middle and never take one side exclusively, neglecting the other completely.

3) Aborting the fetus is not the same as killing an [EDIT: developed] human being.

I dunno man. I still think that a human being is a living being whither is it developed or not. A life is a life. We do not know how that living being inside feels. We can't just disregard their feelings.

The only question is: when does the fetus become an individual human being? In my beliefs, it happens after 40 days after pregnancy takes place. I believe that after that we should consider it an individual human being and forget abortion.

This leads to two case scenarios; before the 40 days, I believe the mother has full right to perform abortion unconditionally. After 40 days, abortion is still an option in my beliefs, but with rules that concern the baby not just the mother. Reasons like risking the mother's health or life is the only one that comes to my mind right now. I believe 40 days is more than long enough to give a valid good reason to perform the abortion.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
This is the linchpin of your argument. But it is wrong. Human beings begin with an egg being merged with a sperm. Killing a human being at that stage might not be the same as killing an adult human being, but it absolutely is killing a human being.

And that is precisely why I am strongly in favor of prosecuting for involuntary manslaughter women who spontaneously abort -- because they are absolutely killing a human being.
 

Excaljnur

Green String
I dunno man. I still think that a human being is a living being whither is it developed or not. A life is a life. We do not know how that living being inside feels. We can't just disregard their feelings.
If your are saying that killing a fetus and killing a developed human being are the same because they are both living things and contain life, that would be correct. But you would be including every other living thing on the planet (i.e. plants, animals, bacteria).

If you compare a fetus (or an undeveloped human being) to a developed human being, the moral weight of killing the human being is much greater than the fetus because you know more about what you are killing. A developed human being may have a job, a family or other dependents whereas an unborn child only has potential which can be more or less and is unknown. I find that hard to deny unless you picture the most vile developed human beings to compare with a fetus's potential, but that would be an unfair comparison.

My point, however, in the OP is that trying to rationalize this comparison (between born and unborn) is rhetoric intended to draw the focus away from the actual immediate and long term problems with having an unwanted child. Whatever you call a fetus: a child, a baby, a human being, a living thing, doesn't change the fact or weaken arguments explaining that choosing to keep a child that could have been aborted may have more negative than positive effects.


Why is 40 the number of days you chose?
 
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Excaljnur

Green String
because they are absolutely killing a human being.
My OP argues that this statement's foundation is dogmatic since it is based in the notion of biological responsibility and the inconsistent objective morality that killing a human being is never morally permissible.
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
If your are saying that killing a fetus and killing a developed human being are the same because they are both living things and contain life, that would be correct. But you would be including every other living thing on the planet (i.e. plants, animals, bacteria).

Sorry, I meant on the human being level, not just a living being.

If you compare a fetus (or an undeveloped human being) to a developed human being, the moral weight of killing the human being is much greater than the fetus because you know more about what you are killing. A developed human being may have a job, a family or other dependents whereas an unborn child only has potential which can be more or less and is unknown. I find that hard to deny unless you picture the most vile developed human beings to compare with a fetus's potential, but that would be an unfair comparison.

Yes, I completely agree with you. That's why in the after-40-years scenario; i.e. after the fetus is considered a living human being, I prioritized the mother over the baby if a risk to her takes place.

My point, however, in the OP is that trying to rationalize this comparison (between born and unborn) is rhetoric intended to draw the focus away from the actual immediate and long term problems with having an unwanted child. Whatever you call a fetus: a child, a baby, a human being, a living thing, doesn't change the fact or weaken arguments explaining that choosing to keep a child that could have been aborted may have more negative than positive effects.

I'm not really comparing, I'm only considering the other side. The other side is considered a living human at some point, which means it should have rights of some sort, not completely looking down on it like it's something completely worthless.

Please keep in mind that I'm not completely neglecting the life nor I'm completely neglecting the choice here. I'm trying to have a rational judgement by considering both sides, not just one. I'm also putting more priority on the mother over what's inside of her.

Why is 40 the number of days you chose?

It is one of the views in which a fetus becomes a life with its own independent soul. One of the views I agree on like a view others take that the being inside the womb has no rights of what so ever. Either ways, as I said before, I believe that under normal circumstances, 40 days is more than long enough to find a reason that makes sense to perform the abortion. I think my belief in this gives us a choice here.
 
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