Mystic view of The value of the OT for mod Christians

[John D]

The Old Testament writings are that part of Christian belief that creates the most enemies. All the laws and bloodshed made a lot of people decide: Nope - not for me!!!
Even among the different denominations and groups the OT creates animosity that very few want to adress.
But!!!
If I,as modern man, look at my life and situations and I seek answers or a direction to go. I will find it in the Old Testament of the Bible,either as a piece of History. Maybe in one of the stories we like to tear to pieces (Noah, Jonah, Job, Daniel, Moses, Samson).
If you read through the real heavy "Religious" part, you will feel the heavy burden that religion lay on you and you will feel the need to be free. Now you read about God promissing a day of freedom, If you look deep enough - you will find that this God wants you to be free from the restrains of religion.
If you look deep enough you will find yourself and your situation in there somewhere ....and the answers you seek.
:bow:

 

[Mr Cheese]

well the OT can be used as mysticism...
it can be seen to be used for relinquishing of the ego...

I forget which books are which< I'll post them when I get home

 

[John D]

well the OT can be used as mysticism...
it can be seen to be used for relinquishing of the ego...

I forget which books are which< I'll post them when I get home

Should be interesting

 

[no-body]

Personally I think reading the OT mystically is harder than the NT because of all the historical baggage associated with the text. All those begets can really bog you down, then reading all these rules about how to treat your slaves, menstruating women, etc leaves you kind of nonplussed. But then again I think in mysticism a healthy dose of giving up the ego is necessary and suffering through these "boring" topics can add to your spiritual growth.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Personally I think reading the OT mystically is harder than the NT because of all the historical baggage associated with the text. All those begets can really bog you down, then reading all these rules about how to treat your slaves, menstruating women, etc leaves you kind of nonplussed. But then again I think in mysticism a healthy dose of giving up the ego is necessary and suffering through these "boring" topics can add to your spiritual growth.

also...to see things mystically you go beyond literalism...

for example...jews often see the whole Egyptian enslavement..as a dark night of the soul......... from doubt , darkness toward light, and God...

That's the beauty of scripture...it can be seen in many ways...

 

[Mr Cheese]

From this perspective , much of the bible itself can be read as an instruction manual which charts the mystic way through withdrawl from sensory attachment (Ecclesiates); confronts the heights and abysses of the spiritual struggle (Psalms); and depicts the soul in union with its creator (Song of Songs).

--Kabbalah, the way of the Jewish Mystic (Perle Epstein)

 

[John D]

From this perspective , much of the bible itself can be read as an instruction manual which charts the mystic way through withdrawl from sensory attachment (Ecclesiates); confronts the heights and abysses of the spiritual struggle (Psalms); and depicts the soul in union with its creator (Song of Songs).

--Kabbalah, the way of the Jewish Mystic (Perle Epstein)

I know that 99% of christians will proberly set my alight for saying this, but frankly, my dear, I don't give a dam?.
- The tree of life,as used in the Kabbalah, do you thing it is a workable option to use as a tool in Christian Mysticism. I am looking at a model using Psalm 119. there are 22 stanza's (hebrew alphabet) and if you apply it to the diffrent "paths" on the tree of life it gets quite interresting.
I am not a scholar,just interested.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I know that 99% of christians will proberly set my alight for saying this, but frankly, my dear, I don't give a dam?.
- The tree of life,as used in the Kabbalah, do you thing it is a workable option to use as a tool in Christian Mysticism. I am looking at a model using Psalm 119. there are 22 stanza's (hebrew alphabet) and if you apply it to the diffrent "paths" on the tree of life it gets quite interresting.
I am not a scholar,just interested.

Kabbalah has been a part of christian mysticism for centuries...albeit fringe groups, but none the less

one could argue that the groups that "invented" kabbalah, were also the first christians......

...

Further Kabbalah is actually used for ANY form of Jewish Mysticism....
thus in the cited example... we see clear insights into mysticism

From this perspective , much of the bible itself can be read as an instruction manual which charts the mystic way through withdrawl from sensory attachment (Ecclesiates); confronts the heights and abysses of the spiritual struggle (Psalms); and depicts the soul in union with its creator (Song of Songs).

--Kabbalah, the way of the Jewish Mystic (Perle Epstein)

Withdrawl from sensory attachment... a part of most systems of mysticism
see thomas A kempis (imitation of Christ), John Climus (ladder of Divine Ascent and to an extent Meister Eckhart etc

Spiritual Struggle......... classic example being St John of the Cross' Dark Night of the Soul.... etc


soul in union with its creator (Song of Songs)....there are numerous examples...

...............

Psalm 119 - Passage*Lookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

I take it you mean this...
I know not enough about this.... but looks interesting, but as I said, the tree of life itself, is but one part of kabbalah

 

[John D]

Kabbalah has been a part of christian mysticism for centuries...albeit fringe groups, but none the less

one could argue that the groups that "invented" kabbalah, were also the first christians......

...

Further Kabbalah is actually used for ANY form of Jewish Mysticism....
thus in the cited example... we see clear insights into mysticism

From this perspective , much of the bible itself can be read as an instruction manual which charts the mystic way through withdrawl from sensory attachment (Ecclesiates); confronts the heights and abysses of the spiritual struggle (Psalms); and depicts the soul in union with its creator (Song of Songs).

--Kabbalah, the way of the Jewish Mystic (Perle Epstein)

Withdrawl from sensory attachment... a part of most systems of mysticism
see thomas A kempis (imitation of Christ), John Climus (ladder of Divine Ascent and to an extent Meister Eckhart etc

Spiritual Struggle......... classic example being St John of the Cross' Dark Night of the Soul.... etc


soul in union with its creator (Song of Songs)....there are numerous examples...

...............

Psalm 119 - Passage*Lookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

I take it you mean this...
I know not enough about this.... but looks interesting, but as I said, the tree of life itself, is but one part of kabbalah

Thanx
Appreciate it ...(sigh).. So much to learn.. and so little time...

 

[Dunemeister]

My only caution is that one's mysticism needs to be grounded in something. For Christians, that grounding is "God's activity in the world", not "the imagination of the mystic".

 

[John D]

My only caution is that one's mysticism needs to be grounded in something. For Christians, that grounding is "God's activity in the world", not "the imagination of the mystic".

So true
I Believe in the Word of God and use it as an anchor. But a lot of times one's traditions and christian upbringing can be more a hindrance than a help. I work from the base that we had a intimate knowledge about God and His Kingdom. Man lost this knowledge when he choosed to receive the knowledge of good and evil and to become a "god".
God opened a portal for man to find this "old knowledge and Kingdom lost". There is a prize though.....

 

[Mr Cheese]

My only caution is that one's mysticism needs to be grounded in something. For Christians, that grounding is "God's activity in the world", not "the imagination of the mystic".

God's activity in the world?

that is a bit obscure and ambiguous...

Mystics value experience over scripture...
actual divine interaction...

"God's activity in the world" would thus be secondary...largely
unless I am misunderstanding you

Of course this is not fully true....
but the mystics understanding of 'God's activity" would differ greatly,
arguably, from one not participating in such things...

 

[Dunemeister]

God's activity in the world?

that is a bit obscure and ambiguous...

Not at all. We have in mind such things as the resurrection, the exodus, certain judgments and blessings that are reported within and without scripture. That is, we root our mysticism in the PUBLIC acts of God. Yes, God DOES operate privately in individuals, but these private experiences are balanced and interpreted by what Christians take to be public acts of God that reveal his nature and character.

 

[John D]

Not at all. We have in mind such things as the resurrection, the exodus, certain judgments and blessings that are reported within and without scripture. That is, we root our mysticism in the PUBLIC acts of God. Yes, God DOES operate privately in individuals, but these private experiences are balanced and interpreted by what Christians take to be public acts of God that reveal his nature and character.

The problem I see with this is the possibility of getting bogged down in the human religious topics,dogmas and views. I for one can't see God's hand in any natural disaster, I don't think He will show Himself in such a way, neither in the killing of innocent people - that is the showing of the terrible hand of man.
When you read the scriptures, you have to be carefull not to take the views of Hebrew culture or any other ( like the western world )as a "showing" of God's Hand.
Everything outside of man is open for interpretation.. The Kingdom of God is inside of man, and this Kingdom must be found, looked and and experienced by the single man.
Out of this experience he must act in the outside world and activly make a difference in the world he is touching.

 

[Dunemeister]

The problem I see with this is the possibility of getting bogged down in the human religious topics,dogmas and views. I for one can't see God's hand in any natural disaster, I don't think He will show Himself in such a way, neither in the killing of innocent people - that is the showing of the terrible hand of man.
When you read the scriptures, you have to be carefull not to take the views of Hebrew culture or any other ( like the western world )as a "showing" of God's Hand.
Everything outside of man is open for interpretation.. The Kingdom of God is inside of man, and this Kingdom must be found, looked and and experienced by the single man.
Out of this experience he must act in the outside world and activly make a difference in the world he is touching.

Well then, don't get bogged down. And don't assume that God's hand is in every act. Christians (who aren't of the Pat Robertson variety, which is to say, most of them) don't. Rather, Christians take the scriptural revelation (not ancient Hebrew or Hellenistic culture) as authoritative.

You should also be aware that "kingdom of God" is a very public phrase. It is not primarily (or even substantially) about the interior life of human beings. It is about God's rulership, which extends over the physical cosmos -- yes, that bit outside of ourselves. That's why the early Christian proclamation about Jesus, whom they called a king in a very literal sense, got them in hot water with the authority; and it's why the authentic undergound church in places like China still have to meet in secret. For the kingdom of God is among you.

 

[John D]

Well then, don't get bogged down. And don't assume that God's hand is in every act. Christians (who aren't of the Pat Robertson variety, which is to say, most of them) don't. Rather, Christians take the scriptural revelation (not ancient Hebrew or Hellenistic culture) as authoritative.

You should also be aware that "kingdom of God" is a very public phrase. It is not primarily (or even substantially) about the interior life of human beings. It is about God's rulership, which extends over the physical cosmos -- yes, that bit outside of ourselves. That's why the early Christian proclamation about Jesus, whom they called a king in a very literal sense, got them in hot water with the authority; and it's why the authentic undergound church in places like China still have to meet in secret. For the kingdom of God is among you.

I don't see the Kingdom of the church(general) = to the Kingdom of God/heaven.
they come very close to being opposites. The church (general) is a very public place. Not every person can just enter the Kingdom of God as he/she pleases. but everybody can accept the teaching of the church(general) and be "saved" and enter that kingdom.
That is the main reason why I am seeking answers outside the church arena.

It is not primarily (or even substantially) about the interior life of human beings.
I think that is exactly what it is al about - It is not about "public worship."- which is a moneymaking, man exalting manmade project.
God is not an egomaniac in need of man's approval and worship.
He has given as the oppertunity to have a personal (one on one) relationship with Him. Out of that very private and very intimate relationship comes the power to be a useful citizen of this world, without being arogant about it.

 

[John D]

..Hope there is somebody outthere...)(

 

[no-body]

The true mystic I think will eventually have to "borrow" experiences from their imagination, the world, and yes even other religions because the Godhead is one.To quote the Dalai Lama just because you prefer one particular fruit doesn't mean you can't eat a slice of another occasionally. I don't think anyone can really help you with mysticism other than give you little hints on how to change the way you think/percieve so you can get something personal out of the text. Obviously also read other Christian mystics and apply their work to the bible as you see fit.

I have some ideas on the kingdom of God myself but they fall more into new age (Tolle, course in miracles, etc) than Christianity so I'll let it be since this is the Christian forum. Good luck on your quest.

 

[John D]

The true mystic I think will eventually have to "borrow" experiences from their imagination, the world, and yes even other religions because the Godhead is one.To quote the Dalai Lama just because you prefer one particular fruit doesn't mean you can't eat a slice of another occasionally. I don't think anyone can really help you with mysticism other than give you little hints on how to change the way you think/percieve so you can get something personal out of the text. Obviously also read other Christian mystics and apply their work to the bible as you see fit.

I have some ideas on the kingdom of God myself but they fall more into new age (Tolle, course in miracles, etc) than Christianity so I'll let it be since this is the Christian forum. Good luck on your quest.

Thank you

 

[arimoff]

The Old Testament writings are that part of Christian belief that creates the most enemies. All the laws and bloodshed made a lot of people decide: Nope - not for me!!!
Even among the different denominations and groups the OT creates animosity that very few want to adress.
But!!!
If I,as modern man, look at my life and situations and I seek answers or a direction to go. I will find it in the Old Testament of the Bible,either as a piece of History. Maybe in one of the stories we like to tear to pieces (Noah, Jonah, Job, Daniel, Moses, Samson).
If you read through the real heavy "Religious" part, you will feel the heavy burden that religion lay on you and you will feel the need to be free. Now you read about God promissing a day of freedom, If you look deep enough - you will find that this God wants you to be free from the restrains of religion.
If you look deep enough you will find yourself and your situation in there somewhere ....and the answers you seek.
:bow:

Actually it is Christianity that creates a lot of enemies not Judaism. History speaks for it self. It is Christianity that pushes people away from religion rather then Judaism. It is sickening to constantly see Christians here blame Judaism for the mistakes of their religion.