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Mystical Experieces and Schizophrenia

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Joseph Campbell somewhere remarks that the schizophrenic and the sage both find themselves in the same waters, but the sage knows how to swim while the schizophrenic does not. I used to think that was a pretty apt metaphor. Now, I'm not so sure. What do you make of it?
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
I would think a lot of schizophrenics know how to swim...in the beginning. Eventually they give up and let the tide wash them wherever it wants.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I would think a lot of schizophrenics know how to swim...in the beginning. Eventually they give up and let the tide wash them wherever it wants.

But do you think the experiences of schizophrenics and the experiences of mystics are all that similar? I'm not so sure they are, despite that similar words are often enough used to describe their experiences.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Joseph Campbell somewhere remarks that the schizophrenic and the sage both find themselves in the same waters, but the sage knows how to swim while the schizophrenic does not. I used to think that was a pretty apt metaphor. Now, I'm not so sure. What do you make of it?


Well, as one observer put it "We've made some progress: we've gone from stoning our prophets to just getting them stoned".


 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
But do you think the experiences of schizophrenics and the experiences of mystics are all that similar? I'm not so sure they are, despite that similar words are often enough used to describe their experiences.
I think a lot of mystical experiences are the result of adamant belief and/or mental malfunction/altered mental states, both of which are sometimes present in schizophrenics. Maybe the mystics are getting small doses of the abyss and schizos are being drowned in it.

That being said, I've never had a (vivid) mystical experience and I am not schizophrenic...
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
But do you think the experiences of schizophrenics and the experiences of mystics are all that similar? I'm not so sure they are, despite that similar words are often enough used to describe their experiences.
Do mystics hear voices, lose their train of thought, suffer from word salad, and sometimes become a danger to others?

If not, then I doubt there's a similarity. :shrug:
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
Would you then be saying the only difference between them is that one can swim?
Or in other words, that a Schizophrenic is merely a Mystic that couldn't handle his/her's calling/gift/ability or what ever you'd like to think of Mystic capacities are.

Thanks.

:namaste
SageTree
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Joseph Campbell somewhere remarks that the schizophrenic and the sage both find themselves in the same waters, but the sage knows how to swim while the schizophrenic does not. I used to think that was a pretty apt metaphor. Now, I'm not so sure. What do you make of it?
Personally, I wouldn't say it is the same at all. For one, mystics have a fair amount of control over their experiences whereas the schizophrenic does not. Also, for the mystic, there is normally a distinct sense of unity that occurs, of balance and harmony with their surroundings. I am pretty confident saying that the same thing does not occur with the schizophrenic. If anything, they are up and down like a proverbial toilet seat and there is a distinct lack of harmony that often requires intervention. Likewise, schizophrenics generally get worse over time whereas mystics tend to maintain a pretty even keel.

Though, to the untrained eye, after a superficial glance, the two may seem similar, at first, over a period of time, the differences should become clear.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Would you then be saying the only difference between them is that one can swim?
Or in other words, that a Schizophrenic is merely a Mystic that couldn't handle his/her's calling/gift/ability or what ever you'd like to think of Mystic capacities are.

Thanks.

:namaste
SageTree

I think Campbell might have been saying that. But I am decidedly not saying that.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I think Campbell might have been saying that. But I am decidedly not saying that.
I think that to equate the two demonstrates a distinct ignorance of both. I'm think it is an over-reach, myself.

That said, I believe that some very well known "mystics" in the past, indeed suffered from mental illness. Given the understanding at the time, it's not like too many would have noticed the difference. In that regard, perhaps we can forgive Campbell for his comparison.
 
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idea

Question Everything
...the sage knows how to swim while the schizophrenic does not. ...

spiritual experiences differ in that they help us become better people - I know of people who have been physically healed, I have personally been warned of dangers that were real, but were outside of the realm that my natural senses could see... mental illnesses cannot forsee the future, cannot accurately warn of unsee-able dangers, cannot impart accurate knowledge, or prompt you for who needs a phone call, or a hundred other things....

so yes, the difference lies in the fact that genuine spiritual influences help us to swim.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
Joseph Campbell somewhere remarks that the schizophrenic and the sage both find themselves in the same waters, but the sage knows how to swim while the schizophrenic does not. I used to think that was a pretty apt metaphor. Now, I'm not so sure. What do you make of it?

From the experience shared to me by schizophrenics in treatment I would say there isn't much of a comparison.

But I'm neither so I don't have much to go on.

It appears to me mystics are not remarking on hallucinations but a different perception of the world that both mystics and non-mystics experience. Mystics, if I am correct, consciously react to a personalized view of the spiritual based on a set of practices they establish and control.

Shizophrenics experience a unique reality, often hallucinations, that they did not initiate, consciously experiencing something that derives from the sub-conscious workings of the brain and have no control over differentiating the experience from themselves.

Or what Patty said.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
That said, I believe that some very well known "mystics" in the past, indeed suffered from mental illness. Given the understanding at the time, it's not like too many would have noticed the difference. In that regard, perhaps we can forgive Campbell for his comparison.

Good point.
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
I think Campbell might have been saying that. But I am decidedly not saying that.

Right on, It's breakfast time and I'll come back to this conversation again tomorrow.

AWESOME to see the Mystic DIR get some play. YAY!
 

DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
I dont think there is a direct correlation between schizophrenia and mysticism in the broad since, but YmirGF makes a good point. I think I agree with you. BUT there has been research that shows a strong similarity between the schizophrenic experience and the experience of the individual chosen by spirits to be a shaman (in the strict Siberian "shaman" context, as well as ecstatic trance healers of other cultures).

One who is chosen by the spirits to be a shaman, around the late teens to early twenties (the same time frame that schizophrenia usually starts to develop strongly) has similar experiences to the schizophrenic including the hearing of voices, the intense visions that they have no control over, visual hallucinations etc. The key is that when the person in a traditional animistic society starts to have these problems, the shaman becomes aware it and starts to teach them. In this case, the initiate learns how to control the spirits and utilize his illness.

In these traditional societies, the shaman is a wounded healer, and always falls incredibly ill before being initiated and taught by an elder shaman. Often times the person will fall fatally ill without apparent cause, experience horrific visions, act like they are crazy without rational thought and etc.

The person who is to become a shaman is chosen by the spirits at birth, and when the time comes, the spirits come to this person and torture them so that they have no choice but to become a shaman. It is only once the person accepts the vocation and begins instruction that their illness goes away.

I have read about some shamans who have said that when they have not shamanized for a long time they start to become ill again. There was also a story of a shaman who stopped shamanizing, because he had been convinced that it was a sin, and became blind because the spirits took his vision away from him for giving up his duty. Ultimately, being a shaman is not a choice because, like mentioned above, the spirits choose the person, and often times it is not a desirable thing to become a shaman. So no one can decide they want to become a shaman and then become a shaman (like too many new age dimwits claim). one can learn to drum, go into trance and journey, but unless they are chosen, they can never have the power that a shaman has.

These kinds of things show a strong similarity with schizophrenia, so it would be interesting to see if a person who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia could, with the proper resources and teacher, learn to utilize this illness and actually become an ecstatic healer. I think it's only because western society has no source of knowledge for this kind of thing that we treat it as a mental illness.

Also, I have to stress the fact that "shaman" cannot be broadly applied to any traditional healer in an indigenous society. That's the fault of western anthropologists. It strictly applies only to certain tribes in Siberia. There are no "shamans" in the Americas, or Africa, or Europe. There are other proper terms for those peoples. But overall, most of them share the commonality of being a wounded healer who practices ecstatic trance, meaning they go into trance and leave their body for the spirit world as part of their healing ritual, usually using a drum.



That was much longer than I expected. Hopefully it was at least educational lol :D
 

arcanum

Active Member
They say genius is closer to insanity. I think you could almost make the point that mystics, like schizophrenics are tuned to a different frequency than totally sane people. So there may be a connecting there at least in the way Campbell was referring to.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Schizophrenia isn't a discrete disorder. It's a whole jumble of mental aberrations characterized primarily by delusion and disorganized thinking.

The mystical experience, or, rather, the hierarchy of mystical experience, seems to me a more discrete delusion than the array schizophrenic disorders. It's more organized and doesn't typically produce the profound social impairment associated with the psychotic disorders.

The disorder that seems most closely to mirror the mystical experience is left temporal lobe epilepsy, not schizophrenia.
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
They say genius is closer to insanity. I think you could almost make the point that mystics, like schizophrenics are tuned to a different frequency than totally sane people. So there may be a connecting there at least in the way Campbell was referring to.

Totally sane. What a concept !
It is an interesting exercise to imagine a 'totally sane' person. And it presumes a standard which does not objectively exist.

I have experienced mystical insight ( and 'I' is not a dirty word !!! ) and have also experienced drug-induced psychosis after severe overuse of psychedelics.

There is no comparison.

Schizophrenics are in an extremely ego-bound state. I would say that in a schizophrenic the self-other dichotomy is painfully exaggerated, whereas the opposite is true in states of mystical awareness.

On the other hand, being schizophrenic does not preclude the possibility of valid insights.

It was during my induced schizo state that I became intensely aware of a general and 'automated' complicity in the community to manage an array of prejudices, contradictions and destructive behavious.

That same observation is often made and commented on by mystics.
 
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