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Near Death experiences and the scientific method.
- Thread starter leroy
- Start date
joelr
Well-Known Member
It's hard to have a discussion with someone so blinded by confirmation bias that they cannot get 3 full sentences into their head? You are correct, what is, is. And what IS is that we have 3 experts who feel this may NOT BE an authentic NDE. To disregard 3 expert opinions shows you do not care about what is true, just confirming what you want to be true.
First -
Critics say that the amount of time which Reynolds was "flatlined" is generally misrepresented and suggest that her NDE occurred while under general anaesthesia when the brain was still active, hours before Reynolds underwent hypothermic cardiac arrest.
then -
Anesthesiologist Gerald Woerlee analyzed the case, and concluded that Reynolds' ability to perceive events during her surgery was the result of "anesthesia awareness".[10]
So her time as actually dead was misrepresented, and the anesthesiologist believes these experiences she had happened after when she was waking up from anesthesia. The things she described were general enough that it doesn't demonstrate that she didn't make it up during the waking up process. It also was a result of her having some awareness while she was going under or waking up from the drugs.
So this is not definitive proof.
You also have an Anesthesiologist saying it WAS NOT AN NDE?
They also came up with a possible theory as to why this happened? It's right there is the short summary of what the doctor said? She was under general anaesthesia for HOURS before the procedure?
I will take the word and testimony of the experts in attendance at the time over those who were not there and did not witness the surgery. What is, is.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
You're not paying attention. And we're not talking about other examples, rather, we're dissecting this particular example you keep alluding to.
How do you know that her experience happened during the time you describe above and not before or after? You're just assuming.
How do you know she was experiencing anesthesia awareness, which is an actual documented thing? You're just assuming.
What is remarkable about knowing what is in the very operating room one is in, and were in before the surgery when they were conscious and aware of their surroundings?
I think anesthesia awareness is impossible for someone without blood in their head and eyes and ears taped shut. If fact I don't believe it happens at all. The surgeon in charge said the events she described happened during the time she was clinically dead. It is an example of life after death which is real and true.No question about it any more the jury and research evidence is in, case closed.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Yeas and confirmation bias is what it is. The doctor who did the surgery did not have a theory as to what caused her memories. So he doesn't say it was a NDE?
However he is not an expert in consciousness and anesthesia.
The expert in that field saw evidence that is phenomenon happened during the time when Pam was waking up.
So this case is not a confirmed example of NDE? It is still a mystery.
The only reason this keeps being brought up is because you refuse to see any information that does not support a pre-concieved belief in what happened.
Now you want to talk about "people who were not there"? The doctor in the tv special, Dr Sabom, wasn't there but guess what? He wrote a book about Christian NDEs? Yeah he's not bias?
It's a work. The specialist who looked into it and understands anesthesia explained this easily could be a case of "anesthesia awareness"?
So it's probably a total work but I'll admit, we do not know. That is where it stands. Or you believe the guy selling NDE and Christianity books as a side project?
joelr
Well-Known Member
The anesthesia began several hours earlier. Hours before they used tape and drained blood.
Just like I pointed out, the actual surgeon didn't say he found it to be a NDE
Spetzler, who performed the operation, showed his greatness of mind by admitting that he did not know. Woerlee and Augustine, however, who were not there when the surgery was performed, were indeed so arrogant as to forward a mere speculation as truth. When I told this to Woerlee he retorted that Spetzler, as a surgeon, would not have known about the phenomenon of "awareness during anesthesia." Now it is my turn to find that inconceivable, that a pioneering neurosurgeon such as Robert Spetzler would not have known of this phenomenon that is taught to all surgeons and surgery assistants.
There is also a paper written that examines evidence and concludes she could have heard the things reported during periods of consciousness. This is clearly an ongoing debate. Except for the new age wu folks. For them aliens crashed at Roswell, abduct people and every NDE report is automatically real.
Could Pam Reynolds Hear? A New Investigation into the Possibility of Hearing During this Famous Near-Death Experience
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
How would you know that?
It's a real, demonstrable thing (unlike your claim), but okay.
I hope you've noticed then, that you are completely dismissing evidence against your claims because well, you just don't believe it. That's not how proper research is done, and it's yet another flaw in your argument. It also points to your tendency toward confirmation bias. You've even gone so far to state that it's impossible, which is a pretty big claim itself, given that we know anesthesia awareness can and has actually happened to people.
The thing you keep ignoring is that she was conscious before the surgery and could have easily looked around the room and taken in its contents, as we all do without even realizing.
Secondly, people tend to be unconscious for a while after surgery. Pam could have easily just dreamed her "memories" of the surgery after it was already over and she was recovering. There is no possible way to tell exactly when (before, during or after the surgery) her "recollection" took place.
Knowing what we know about brains, the most likely scenario is that her brain was trying to piece together the experience of the surgery after the fact, and that's what it came up with - something sort of strange and dream-like - the last gasps of a dying brain trying to make sense of what is going on. We know our brains can create false memories and dreams and all kinds of things we aren't necessarily aware of. Hell, dreams themselves are quite a bizarre thing but we don't imagine that they are signs from fairies or gods or anything, right? I mean, we realize they are connected to our brain function?
Except that again, she wasn't dead. She was in a coma.
So no, it's not an example of life after death.
Only if you ignore all evidence against your claim, as you've just done above (and have been doing for our entire discussion).
I think this could keep going for years. You are wrong. The videos say you are wrong and life after death is real. I know, I have been there and had many spiritual experiences.
Life is totally meaningless without life after death. There would be no reason to build or learn or study if when you die that is the end of all your efforts wasted. People intuitively know that they are spirit, but the physical is a tough place. It is only knowing that what you are learning is going to continue that makes people try harder.
I don't understand the opposition, life after death is great and there is much to do. Yes, you do have to learn to be kind and considerate of others if you want to advance in the spiritual world. Taken from my glimpses and experiences I have written a poem about the after life. It is in my book of poetry, but I will post it in case someone wishes to read it.
I’m Going Home
Now when I lay me down to die,
give no pity, feel no sorrow.
There’s no need for one to cry
‘cause I won’t be here tomorrow.
I’ve lived life for a long, long time,
learning to do what’s good and right.
I’ve made me mark, written me rhyme,
I’m all set for that final flight.
I’ve touched the hem of death before,
by heart attack I ceased to be.
I’ve seen another distant shore,
through me face-to-face NDE.
The spirit world is golden light,
filled with care, compassionate love.
Its total blessing hugs you tight,
leaving no doubt you’re part thereof.
There’s a Park with dazzling green grass,
dotted with brilliant rainbow flowers,
tables, and chairs like polished brass
a place to couch for endless hours.
Deep blue water flows in small stream,
ponds with fountains create a breeze.
Around The Park’s utmost extreme,
are dwellings built for all to please.
Crystal buildings house libraries,
for the pursuit of all knowledge.
Rooms of learned commentaries,
more than any earthly college.
A Hall of Records contains the past,
the deeds of all souls ever been,
for us to know, from first to last,
a worthy work kept safe therein.
Museums, mansions, field for games,
schools for keeping me reverent.
“Like earth it seems to be the same,
yet it is very different.”
I could be someone’s spirit guide,
to help them navigate their life.
I might play watcher on the side,
helping the gifted with their strife.
Many, many roles to choose from,
much work of love to carry through.
I could pose an effort outcome,
and then relax, let love accrue.
Everywhere light, the source of love,
permeating bright through and through.
Bringing compassion from above,
love and caring for me and you.
Naught to serve, everywhere to serve,
naught to learn, everything to learn,
freedom of choice that all deserve,
the greatest gift of life to earn.
So when I lay me down to die,
grieve for thyself, I will not roam,
we shall meet again, in the bye,
not to worry, I’m going home.
Life is totally meaningless without life after death. There would be no reason to build or learn or study if when you die that is the end of all your efforts wasted. People intuitively know that they are spirit, but the physical is a tough place. It is only knowing that what you are learning is going to continue that makes people try harder.
I don't understand the opposition, life after death is great and there is much to do. Yes, you do have to learn to be kind and considerate of others if you want to advance in the spiritual world. Taken from my glimpses and experiences I have written a poem about the after life. It is in my book of poetry, but I will post it in case someone wishes to read it.
I’m Going Home
Now when I lay me down to die,
give no pity, feel no sorrow.
There’s no need for one to cry
‘cause I won’t be here tomorrow.
I’ve lived life for a long, long time,
learning to do what’s good and right.
I’ve made me mark, written me rhyme,
I’m all set for that final flight.
I’ve touched the hem of death before,
by heart attack I ceased to be.
I’ve seen another distant shore,
through me face-to-face NDE.
The spirit world is golden light,
filled with care, compassionate love.
Its total blessing hugs you tight,
leaving no doubt you’re part thereof.
There’s a Park with dazzling green grass,
dotted with brilliant rainbow flowers,
tables, and chairs like polished brass
a place to couch for endless hours.
Deep blue water flows in small stream,
ponds with fountains create a breeze.
Around The Park’s utmost extreme,
are dwellings built for all to please.
Crystal buildings house libraries,
for the pursuit of all knowledge.
Rooms of learned commentaries,
more than any earthly college.
A Hall of Records contains the past,
the deeds of all souls ever been,
for us to know, from first to last,
a worthy work kept safe therein.
Museums, mansions, field for games,
schools for keeping me reverent.
“Like earth it seems to be the same,
yet it is very different.”
I could be someone’s spirit guide,
to help them navigate their life.
I might play watcher on the side,
helping the gifted with their strife.
Many, many roles to choose from,
much work of love to carry through.
I could pose an effort outcome,
and then relax, let love accrue.
Everywhere light, the source of love,
permeating bright through and through.
Bringing compassion from above,
love and caring for me and you.
Naught to serve, everywhere to serve,
naught to learn, everything to learn,
freedom of choice that all deserve,
the greatest gift of life to earn.
So when I lay me down to die,
grieve for thyself, I will not roam,
we shall meet again, in the bye,
not to worry, I’m going home.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Yeah, probably. Especially given the fact that you won't address any evidence that doesn't fit your pre-conceived narrative.
I mean seriously, you just completely bypassed my entire post.
Wrong about what, exactly?
The video says I'm wrong about, what?
You still haven't explained how these videos are evidence of the existence of disembodied minds or anything else that you're claiming.
In your opinion.
It's not to me. In fact, life is infinitely more precious if there is no life after death and this is the only life we get.
We attach our own meanings to life.
What a bizarre sentiment.
If there is life after death, then what's the point in building or learning or studying in this life? Please explain. It would seem a waste of time if we're just sitting around waiting for some better life that comes after we die.
There are many reasons that I want to learn and build and study and grow in the only life I know I get for sure in order to help advance the human race; to provide a better future for the children than we had ourselves; to ensure the planet survives so that life can survive, and a myriad of other reasons.
I don't. So that's a false statement.
I'm not sure why you don't understand, given that I've explained it numerous times now.
Nobody is saying life after death is bad or whatever you're implying here. I've made no such judgment call. In fact, I'd be beyond thrilled to know that my dad who had a difficult life and died rather young, is living whole again somewhere in some afterlife with my grandma and grandpa. But I can't believe that just because I want to. Because I've never seen evidence that has convinced me that it's true. Nothing even close.
I'm not kind and considerate to others because I'm trying to get into some afterlife where I'll be rewarded for it. Rather, I'm kind and considerate to people because I want to be, because I realize that life is more enjoyable that way, because I realize that I want people to be kind and considerate to me and hope they'll respond in kind, because I think human beings have worth and value. I don't need the promise of some afterlife to do any of this.
What I have been asking for this entire time is a rational, detailed, demonstrable explanation for the claims you are making in this thread. For you to explain what is going on here without having to inject an even greater mystery into it. A mystery that has no explanatory power, because such things don't actually get us anywhere. If we did what you're advocating here, we'd have to believe everything anybody ever told us, whether there was verifiable evidence or not. That's not a pathway to believing as many true things as possible and not believing in as many false things as possible, which is what I'm interested in.
While this is lovely, it doesn't get you any closer to demonstrating the veracity of your claims.
I have not seen anyone present any evidence to make a determination of what an NDE is. Since that is true, they cannot be considered objective evidence of an afterlife. I believe in an afterlife, but no one has ever shown me objective evidence to demonstrate it.
What is see is people that believe something and what they believe.
That is the only evidence that is on display here.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
How can you prove you believe in an afterlife? You may not be telling the truth, and is it reasonable for people to disbelieve you if you can't provide objective evidence?
Exactly. You only have my word to go on.
I do not know of any way to test if a person holds the beliefs they claim. There is evidence that might be used, but that may only tell us the how they practice or exercise their belief and not whether their claim is false.
Is a person a believer in something if and only if they follow A, B, C...? If there are a 1,000 principles to embracing spirituality, does the person that only follows 999 of those not a believer in spirituality? What about if it is only 501?
Many claim to know that others are or are not, but I have found nothing to indicate that anyone does in any way they can demonstrate.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
So if some people demand objective proof for claims such as OOB experiences, NDE experiences, etc., why don't these same people demand objective proof for beliefs? And why stop at beliefs, why not a demand for objective proof for what people claim they think? My point is that subjective experiences are not happening in the physical domain so it is not reasonable to demand objective proof, there must be other means devised to try and determine their veracity.
If a person claims something publicly, it is completely reasonable to ask and expect they show support for their claim. If you just say you believe something, there is nothing I or anyone can do but accept that. Do you see the difference.
If you do not believe in God, you will be condemned. I believe in God. The first demands that it be supported. The second is just a statement of fact for the person making it.
I think nde’s are your brain giving you the best trip out of life it can imo.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
I accept that you believe there is a difference, but unless you can provide objective proof that there is a difference in principle, I do not agree.
Do you mean God is condemning those who do not believe in God?
I can think of no means to determine the veracity of or falsify a subjective experience. All that can be said is that a person can either accept it on its face or reject it for lack of evidence.
A phenomenon has been noted and for lack of a better term it has been labeled as "near death experience". Based on everything I have been made aware of, we have no idea what it is or if it is significant. Many people believe many things about it, but I do not see any information that would compel me to agree with any of those claims. There are known aspects of physiology that may easily explain the phenomenon. There are lots of unexplained phenomena out there and people believe all sorts of conclusions about them that have not been supported with any evidence.
All that can be said is that conclusions and claims based on belief remain unsupported. On the other side of this is the fact that no one can show that someone's believed views are wrong too.
A belief cannot be shown to be true and it cannot be shown to be false. All that one can do is show there is no reason to accept one belief over another for those that do not believe.
You do not accept that claims require support?
Reference to God was only for example. I am making no claims regarding God and belief in God.
The first was a specific claim about the belief in God. The second was a statement of fact about a person that believes in God. Of course, you have to accept that the person making the claim is correct and you cannot demonstrate whether they really believe or not.