Neat Video Explaining the Evidence of Our Relationship To the Other Great Apes

[Valjean]

I always knew those Swedes were freaks....

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Evolution theory doesn't go against what Islam teaches. However I would say, Muslims do not accept all life started from a self replicating single cell organism. Rather we believe God created Millions of species that inhabited the Earth, each one uniquely programmed to adapt to life on Earth.

That certainly sounds like Darwin's theory and Islam are incompatible. Why do Muslims believe what you described? Is it scriptural?

Sure there is micro evolution, as observed by Darwin in his study of finches and their beaks. But no evidence one distinct life form slowly mutating to a completely different species.

Well, there's the fossil evidence for this, the comparative anatomical and embryological evidence, the biomolecular and genetic evidence, the biogeographical evidence, and direct observation of speciation in the lab and field. They all support the same conclusion about the common descent of all living things from a single common ancestral cell over deep time.

Can you offer a mechanism by which living creatures can limit smaller changes over shorter time periods from accumulating into the greater changes over longer periods that you seem to think are impossible or somehow prevented?

Show me the evidence for '150 years of evidence consistent with naturalistic evolution'. Let me see what exactly that entails. It's not a study on mutating viruses is it?

That's basically the entire body of evolutionary science, not a single study. You're talking about mountains of evidence. You mentioned Darwins finches. There is human chromosome 2, Tiktaalic and Archeopteryx, the ring of salamander around California's central valley, the series of hominan fossils, legs on cetacean embryos, comparative genomics, and more.

Go ahead and Google "evidence for evolution" if you'd like to dig in further.

Ultimately you will have conclusive proof, but sadly you won't be coming back to tell us about it.

That's a religious belief. I have no reason to believe that, and neither do you. The faith based thinker apparently doesn't need one, whereas the rational skeptic won't believe without one.

Nobody on this planet knows any more about what follows death than anybody else, and although consciousness may persist after physical death, there is no reason to think that it does.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Such a being is unworthy. Such narcissism. Why would the Ultimate Creator need worship?

To what end? Is it so weak, that it needs constant reassurance? Or is it simply vain?

Watch this short video that makes it very simple to understand:

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

No wonder sometimes, I crave for bananas.

(especially at the 1 minute mark)

Had there been within the heavens and earth gods besides Allah, they both would have been ruined. So exalted is Allah, Lord of the Throne, above what they describe. Qur'an 21:22

To be fair, the planet DOES seem to be run by a poorly communicating committee...

I've heard it said "on earth as it is in heaven." On earth we find ecologies that have innumerable decentralized and interdependent foci. If the planet is run thusly, then in heaven it must be the same?

And YET the rest of mankind doesn't not acknowledge the gift YOU gave them, no mention of your achievement anywhere, no Nobel Peace Prize. NOTHING at all <<<< Is that being just? similarly, is taking 20 mins out of 24 hrs to acknowledge the Creator unjust?

Should I respect any parent who simply makes a kid and then never does anything else with it?

Lastly children are born with a natural ability to distinguish right from wrong, as if their DNA has been programmed that way, and as we grow up, people are naturally inclined to search for existential meaning and purpose, those that don't find answers are more prone to suffering depression etc.

Primates also get irritable if you don't share. That would explain where the genetics come in ...

Again, it's about ID people and not creationists.

They are the same thing. Using Find/Replace doesn't change things.

Life did not start with a bolt of lightning striking a pond of water as claimed.

It has more evidence than what's in the bible.

Time does not make impossible things possible. For example, a computer was programmed in an attempt to arrive at the simple 26-letter alphabet. After 35,000,000,000,000 (35 trillion) attempts it has only arrived at 14 letters correctly.

The hubris is that the 26 letters are necessary. They are not. We always assume the way we do things is the correct way, but that's illogical. At any rate, the alphabet you currently use evolved from prior languages and wasn't just poofed out of thin air, so I doubt the respectability of this argument.

So, what are the odds that a simple single cell organism could evolve given the complexity of more than 60,000 proteins of 100 different configurations all in the correct places? Never in eternity!

Unlike arbitrary letters, chemicals can only hook up in certain ways. Therein lies your problem.

Our education system teaches evolution so kids grow up into adults who believe it.

Remember kids, you are not a monkey but the descendant of a dirt robot. The former is just silly talk.

5. Birds did not evolve from dinosaurs. Their bone structure is different.

Dinosaurs are not all the same. "Dinosaurs" is not a species.

8. Coelacanth turned out to be a living fossil. How embarrassing!

Jesus is immortal, so where is he?

That's really only because it's an ethical minefield. Genetically there's nothing really preventing it from working. In fact, it would be a healthier hybrid than the hybrids we make with horses.

That, and Caesar didn't really seem all that into it as he gained advanced thought anyway.

“I have created the jinn and humankind only for My worship.” Qur'an 51:56

But WHY?

Creation and Intelligent Design are synonymous. The Genesis creation myth is the story of an intelligent designer.

With "intelligence" being poorly defined, per the results of the Creation ....

 

[Muslim-UK]

That certainly sounds like Darwin's theory and Islam are incompatible. Why do Muslims believe what you described? Is it scriptural?

Islam sits on the fence when it comes to 'Theories'.

 

[ChristineM]

All people on Earth now who have blue eyes.

Blue-eyed humans have a single, common ancestor

"New research shows that people with blue eyes have a single, common ancestor. Scientists have tracked down a genetic mutation which took place 6,000-10,000 years ago and is the cause of the eye color of all blue-eyed humans alive on the planet today.

"Originally, we all had brown eyes," said Professor Hans Eiberg from the Department of Cellular and Molecular Medicine. "But a genetic mutation affecting the OCA2 gene in our chromosomes resulted in the creation of a "switch," which literally "turned off" the ability to produce brown eyes." The OCA2 gene codes for the so-called P protein, which is involved in the production of melanin, the pigment that gives colour to our hair, eyes and skin. The "switch," which is located in the gene adjacent to OCA2 does not, however, turn off the gene entirely, but rather limits its action to reducing the production of melanin in the iris -- effectively "diluting" brown eyes to blue. The switch's effect on OCA2 is very specific therefore. If the OCA2 gene had been completely destroyed or turned off, human beings would be without melanin in their hair, eyes or skin colour -- a condition known as albinism."

Blue-eyed humans have a single, common ancestor

I have blue eyes and have researched this extensively. Interesting that its not the gene responsible for melanin that causes blue eyes but the one next to it. Even more interesting is that blue eyes originated around the Bosporus, in what is now Turkey. If i had a dollar for each argument I've had on topix, usually with creationists who claim god made blue eyed people in Sweden I'd have as lot of dollars.

 

[Muslim-UK]

I wrote, "And YET the rest of mankind doesn't not acknowledge the gift YOU gave them, no mention of your achievement anywhere, no Nobel Peace Prize. NOTHING at all <<<< Is that being just? similarly, is taking 20 mins out of 24 hrs to acknowledge the Creator unjust?"

Should I respect any parent who simply makes a kid and then never does anything else with it?

What do you mean God does nothing else for the child? He provides food, shelter and sends guidance in the form of Scriptures and Prophets/Messengers.

I wrote:

“I have created the jinn and humankind only for My worship.” Qur'an 51:56

But WHY?

See post 83. It is solely for our benefit.
Peace

 

[Valjean]

Watch this short video that makes it very simple to understand:

Still don't understand. There is nothing we can give Allah doesn't already own; nothing we can add to Him and no way for us to benefit Him.
So why does he require daily prayer, observance of holy days or Hajj?
Why does He care what we eat or how we dress?

Does it annoy God if we eat haram food or show our hair? Does it insult Him if we don't pray to Him?
What are we that He's so concerned with us?

 

[Muslim-UK]

Still don't understand. There is nothing we can give Allah doesn't already own; nothing we can add to Him and no way for us to benefit Him.
So why does he require daily prayer, observance of holy days or Hajj?
Why does He care what we eat or how we dress?

Does it annoy God if we eat haram food or show our hair? Does it insult Him if we don't pray to Him?
What are we that He's so concerned with us?

Everything we follow in Islam is for our own benefit. Praying 5 times a day helps us become closer to God, makes us more God aware. This makes us better humans, makes us help others without seeking any earthly reward. Reminds us to visit the sick, our parents, friends and family etc It reminds us to do good works for fellow believers an the wider community. This is just a small insight so you may understand.

Going on Hajj reminds us we are all the same, no difference between rich and poor, black or white. A Prince stands shoulder to shoulder with a cleaner. Our status in life means nothing, only what resides within us, (our piety) determines our rank before God.

We dress differently to be modest and distinguish ourselves from others. We refrain from eating food that is not good for us, refrain from alcohol because where it can lead to.

When we follow His guidance and become servants of God, we not only benefit ourselves in this short life, but are also rewarded in the hereafter with eternal salvation.

When we submit to His will, we are given signs and evidences that non believers can't understand. Ultimately if I die and disbelievers are right, we just turn to dust and nothingness, I lose nothing.

 

[Valjean]

Everything we follow in Islam is for our own benefit. Praying 5 times a day helps us become closer to God, makes us more God aware. This makes us better humans, makes us help others without seeking any earthly reward. Reminds us to visit the sick, our parents, friends and family etc It reminds us to do good works for fellow believers an the wider community. This is just a small insight so you may understand.

Going on Hajj reminds us we are all the same, no difference between rich and poor, black or white. A Prince stands shoulder to shoulder with a cleaner. Our status in life means nothing, only what resides within us, (our piety) determines our rank before God.

We dress differently to be modest and distinguish ourselves from others. We refrain from eating food that is not good for us, refrain from alcohol because where it can lead to.

When we follow His guidance and become servants of God, we not only benefit ourselves in this short life, but are also rewarded in the hereafter with eternal salvation.

When we submit to His will, we are given signs and evidences that non believers can't understand. Ultimately if I die and disbelievers are right, we just turn to dust and nothingness, I lose nothing.

OK, I think I get it. So the observances are spiritual exercises for our own benefit, not requirements.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Everything we follow in Islam is for our own benefit. Praying 5 times a day helps us become closer to God, makes us more God aware. This makes us better humans, makes us help others without seeking any earthly reward. Reminds us to visit the sick, our parents, friends and family etc It reminds us to do good works for fellow believers an the wider community. This is just a small insight so you may understand.

Why didn't Allah just make us better people? Why would they expect or want any of this from us?

Going on Hajj reminds us we are all the same, no difference between rich and poor, black or white. A Prince stands shoulder to shoulder with a cleaner. Our status in life means nothing, only what resides within us, (our piety) determines our rank before God.

We dress differently to be modest and distinguish ourselves from others. We refrain from eating food that is not good for us, refrain from alcohol because where it can lead to.

When we follow His guidance and become servants of God, we not only benefit ourselves in this short life, but are also rewarded in the hereafter with eternal salvation.

All you have really done is demonstrate why religions may have benefits for humans and societies - you've not addressed the question of what benefit it is to any kind of God. You've essentially just admitted that your religion isn't derived from God, but constructed entirely by people for purposes of perceived personal benefit. There is no sense in being a "servant of God". If God exists and are truly all-powerful, they don't need servants. That's just obvious.

When we submit to His will, we are given signs and evidences that non believers can't understand. Ultimately if I die and disbelievers are right, we just turn to dust and nothingness, I lose nothing.

Not necessarily true. It could be true that God exists but rewards skepticism and punishes credulity, in which case you lose everything. Or it could be true that one of the countless other religions are true and we'd both stand to lose the same amount. Or, it could be that no God exists and that by believing one does you missed out on the opportunity to live the one lifetime you have on your own terms rather than in deference to an imaginary being, or you forced yourself to do things which are harmful to others because you were motivated by that misplaced belief.

You stand to lose a heck of a lot. Nothing is more delusional to me than the false dichotomy you just set up.

 

[MJFlores]

 

[Muslim-UK]

Why didn't Allah just make us better people? Why would they expect or want any of this from us?

You mean make us soul less robots or something?

you've not addressed the question of what benefit it is to any kind of God. You've essentially just admitted that your religion isn't derived from God, but constructed entirely by people for purposes of perceived personal benefit. There is no sense in being a "servant of God". If God exists and are truly all-powerful, they don't need servants. That's just obvious.

None of this is of any benefit to God, see post 83. Only we can take benefit from it, and if we choose to ignore Him, then we will just be replaced by another creation that is thankful or do you not see great civilisations of the past, that were highly advanced yet were struck by a catastrophic event?

Not necessarily true. It could be true that God exists but rewards skepticism and punishes credulity, in which case you lose everything. Or it could be true that one of the countless other religions are true and we'd both stand to lose the same amount. Or, it could be that no God exists and that by believing one does you missed out on the opportunity to live the one lifetime you have on your own terms rather than in deference to an imaginary being, or you forced yourself to do things which are harmful to others because you were motivated by that misplaced belief.

You packed in quite a lot in that paragraph. I believe what I do based on the Qur'an, which could only have come from a higher being. Any other religion making similar claims would have to bring their evidences. I don't see how following Islam stops me from enjoying life? Nothing I do is harmful towards others. Perhaps you are thinking of Countries being invaded and some people fighting back? This is nothing to do with religion.

You stand to lose a heck of a lot. Nothing is more delusional to me than the false dichotomy you just set up.

We are examining what's to lose and thus far I see very little.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You mean make us soul less robots or something?

So you're saying God couldn't have made a world in which people live fulfilling lives that wouldn't have also made us soulless robots? Pretty weak God.

None of this is of any benefit to God, see post 83.

So why do they ask it of us?

Only we can take benefit from it, and if we choose to ignore Him, then we will just be replaced by another creation that is thankful or do you not see great civilisations of the past, that were highly advanced yet were struck by a catastrophic event?

Why does it matter to an all-powerful entity whether or not his/her creation is "grateful"? Also, don't you think it's a bit silly for God to rely on threats?

You packed in quite a lot in that paragraph. I believe what I do based on the Qur'an, which could only have come from a higher being. Any other religion making similar claims would have to bring their evidences. I don't see how following Islam stops me from enjoying life?

I didn't say it did. I just said that you are POTENTIALLY prevented from doing the most good you could do by following Islam. Let's say one of the other countless religions is correct - would you still rather follow Islam, or would you defer to that religion's verdict on what is the best way to live your life?

Nothing I do is harmful towards others.

I doubt that. We all do good and we all do harm. The key is to be able to acknowledge and limit harm when we do it. Religions tend to propagate the idea that the harm we do to others is either justified or not true "harm" at all.

For example: how do you feel about homosexuality? (I don't want to go off on a tangent, I just want to bring up this one example)

Perhaps you are thinking of Countries being invaded and some people fighting back? This is nothing to do with religion.

Didn't even mention that. I'm talking more broadly about ideals and how the ideals we hold can often limit or hinder our ability to see the truth, and how this may potentially cause us to limit our real affect on the world and prevent us from doing the most good we can. In many cases the belief we have - especially if that belief is based on faith rather than reason - causes us to do acts that are objectively harmful and attempts to justify them.

We are examining what's to lose and thus far I see very little.

I already explained it. You could spend eternity in hell, for all you know.

 

[Muslim-UK]

So you're saying God couldn't have made a world in which people live fulfilling lives that wouldn't have also made us soulless robots? Pretty weak God.

Where is the test for mankind if we are all created perfectly to do good works? We have freewill and the ability to use our minds to decide how little or how much we want to help ourselves and others.

So why do they ask it of us?

Watch the short video in post 83, it will explain. All worship is for our benefit alone, and no one will regret it when they return to God.

Why does it matter to an all-powerful entity whether or not his/her creation is "grateful"? Also, don't you think it's a bit silly for God to rely on threats?

Because we are gifted with the ability to see, to hear, use of functioning limbs helping us live our lives. We should give thanks, and ultimately we are told, this life is just a stepping stone. We will return to God for Judgement. Did we follow his guidance and use our gifts for good, or did we use our hands to do evil.

I didn't say it did. I just said that you are POTENTIALLY prevented from doing the most good you could do by following Islam. Let's say one of the other countless religions is correct - would you still rather follow Islam, or would you defer to that religion's verdict on what is the best way to live your life?

Oh okay. I would follow whatever made sense, was preserved and was proven to come from God.

I doubt that. We all do good and we all do harm. The key is to be able to acknowledge and limit harm when we do it. Religions tend to propagate the idea that the harm we do to others is either justified or not true "harm" at all.

For example: how do you feel about homosexuality? (I don't want to go off on a tangent, I just want to bring up this one example)

Islam says homosexuality is forbidden, and one should suppress their desires. If one is unable to do that, then what you do behind closed doors is between you an god. Perhaps you really can't help how you are, and Allah swt never burdens a soul with more than it can bear. Here's a homosexual Muslim explaining what Islam says on the subject.

Dim witted intolerant Muslims, who advocate murdering fellow human beings for their sexual orientation would do well to study, rather than face the hell fire for their actions.

Didn't even mention that. I'm talking more broadly about ideals and how the ideals we hold can often limit or hinder our ability to see the truth, and how this may potentially cause us to limit our real affect on the world and prevent us from doing the most good we can. In many cases the belief we have - especially if that belief is based on faith rather than reason - causes us to do acts that are objectively harmful and attempts to justify them.

Blind following is forbidden in Islam, we have to examine the evidence and from there, conclude Islam is from the creator, then we can on the balance of probability accept the things we can't verify. Things like, Heaven, Hell, Angels, Demons and GOD.

I already explained it. You could spend eternity in hell, for all you know.

I have examined the evidences and conclude I am on the right path. I'm happy to see what people of other Religions have to offer in terms of evidences, and if they have a stronger case, then I'm happy to investigate further.

I'm not a Islamic theologian, so excuse me if my answers are lacking.

 

[omega2xx]

So you admit that you cannot be educated or reasoned with, and have no interest in any sort of evidence or data. This is called willful ignorance and intellectual dishonesty. Thus you're not worth taking seriously, and if your beliefs require denial to sustain them, then neither are they.

Let me finish my reason for quit reading links. I read them for over 20 years and not one provided any scientific evidence to support what they said.

I haven't admitted I can be educated, Bring educated in basic genetics is why I reject evolution. Not being willing to take 5 minuets to cut and paste some evidence made in a link is not only not to be taken seriously, it is also being willfully, intellectual dishonest.

In the time it took you to post this response, you could have cut and pasted one piece of evidence offered by an evo link, If you want to identify intellectual dishonesty, start there.

When someone challenges what I say, I answer immediately. I have been asking you evos to cut and paste their link evidence for about 2 years. During that time I have had only 2 effort.s. One was gobbly gook that didn't prove anything, It only said it happened, the usual evo rhetoric. The other was some pictures of fossil. Even cave men know pictures are not evidence.

My scientific beliefs are based on evidence, not speculation, and if I am not to be taken seriously, put me on ignore.

So instead of whining about what I don't do, post some evidence from any link and I will show you why it is not evidence.

 

[omega2xx]

We've done it a thousand times before.

Not to me. If you say you have, give me the thread and the post number.

It's like trying to spoon-feed a stubborn brat.

How silly

Creationists demand evidence or insist that there is none, and when you present it, they immediately reject it without even examining it. They refuse to be honest and objective when it comes to anything they feel might threaten their faith. It's pitiful.

You better believe I demand evidence, and evidently you don't understand the term, You still take opinions as evidence.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You evos not being willing to cut and paste evidence from a link is even more telling.

I tried it your way-- you 100% ignored my post. You pretended I had posted nothing.

You are, like most Zealots with Weak Faith, simply afraid of reading anything that would ruin your little fantasy.

But for anyone NOT afraid?


Proof of evolution:
1) 15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense
2) Lines of evidence: The science of evolution
3) http://io9.gizmodo.com/8-scientific-discoveries-that-prove-evolution-is-real-1729902558
4) Human Evolution Evidence | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program
5) How Did Multicellular Life Evolve? - Astrobiology Magazine
6) TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy
7) Evolution
8) http://ideonexus.com/2012/02/12/101-reasons-why-evolution-is-true/
9) http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence
10) http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/…/topicbrowse2.php…
11) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent
12) http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/03/0308_060308_evolution.html
13) http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/home.php
14) http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_01

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Watch this short video that makes it very simple to understand:

No. I would rather watch how the followers of such a being behave: they are it's representatives, after all.

But even so: No being who is Superior in Every Way, would require worship or constant ego-stroking (adoration). None.

Such a being-- I don't care how you spin it-- such a being is not superior.

Worship is Slave Behavior. Any being who requires Slave Behavior, is Unworthy.

Period.

And just like that? Mere mortal humans (some of them, at least) who reject Slavery in all it's forms, are more moral.

Might does NOT, in fact, make Right.

 

[Muslim-UK]

No. I would rather watch how the followers of such a being behave: they are it's representatives, after all.

But even so: No being who is Superior in Every Way, would require worship or constant ego-stroking (adoration). None.

Such a being-- I don't care how you spin it-- such a being is not superior.

Worship is Slave Behavior. Any being who requires Slave Behavior, is Unworthy.

Period.

And just like that? Mere mortal humans (some of them, at least) who reject Slavery in all it's forms, are more moral.

Might does NOT, in fact, make Right.

The worship does nothing for God. It benefits us only.

A man spent 500 years worshipping God constantly. When he returned to God he was asked would he like to be judged on his deeds or should God just use his Mercy? He confidently opted to be judged according to his deeds. They were measured on the scale and then he was told to enter the hell fire. He protested and God explained the gift of eyesight was not covered by his 500 years of constant worship. He quickly asked to be admitted to Heaven based on God's Mercy.

As an unbeliever with free will, you shouldn't worry about people choosing to be servants to God.