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Nebraska Judge Third To Strike Down Federal Abortion Ban

Pah

Uber all member
Nebraska Judge Third To Strike Down Federal Abortion Ban Due to Lack of Health Exception; DOJ To Appeal
[Sep 09, 2004]
U.S. District Judge Richard Kopf in Lincoln, Neb., on Wednesday became the third judge to strike down a federal ban on so-called "partial-birth" abortion because the law does not include an exception to protect a pregnant woman's health, the Omaha World-Herald reports (Tysver, Omaha World-Herald, 9/8). The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act (S 3) bans "an abortion in which a physician deliberately and intentionally vaginally delivers a living, unborn child's body until either the entire baby's head is outside the body of the mother, or any part of the baby's trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother and only the head remains inside the womb, for the purpose of performing an overt act (usually the puncturing of the back of the child's skull and removing the baby's brains) that the person knows will kill the partially delivered infant." Abortion providers who violate the ban could face felony charges, up to two years in prison and fines of up to $250,000. The Department of Justice has been defending the law in three separate trials after federal judges in San Francisco, New York and Nebraska each issued temporary restraining orders to prevent enforcement of the ban following President Bush's November 2003 signing of the measure. The restraining orders were issued in response to lawsuits filed by Planned Parenthood Federation of America, the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of the National Abortion Federation and the Center for Reproductive Rights on behalf of four abortion providers. Each lawsuit alleged that the law is unconstitutional because of the absence of a health exception. In place of a health exception, the law includes a long "findings" section that documents medical evidence presented during congressional hearings that, according to supporters of the law, indicates that the procedures banned by the law are never medically necessary (Kaiser Daily Reproductive Health Report, 8/27).

Ruling Details
Kopf's more-than-400-page ruling said that Congress' finding that the banned procedure is never medically necessary is "factually unsound," according to Reuters (Gillam, Reuters, 9/8). Kopf, who four years earlier ruled a similar Nebraska ban unconstitutional, said that the federal law is "vague" and that Congress "ignored" testimony from doctors who said the procedure is sometimes necessary to protect a pregnant woman's health, according to USA Today. Kopf wrote, "According to responsible medical opinion, there are times when the banned procedure is medically necessary ... and a respectful reading of the congressional record proves that" (Willing, USA Today, 9/9). Kopf said that one of DOJ's own witnesses testified during the trial that the procedure may be necessary to protect a woman's health, according to the World-Herald. "The long and short of it is Congress arbitrarily relied upon the opinions of doctors who claimed to have no (or very little) recent and relevant experience with surgical abortions and disregarded the views of doctors who had significant and relevant experience with these procedures," Kopf wrote (Omaha World-Herald, 9/8). Kopf's decision "echoed" the earlier rulings by federal judges in San Francisco and New York, who also struck down the law for lacking a health exception, the AP/Boston Globe reports (O'Hanlon, AP/Boston Globe, 9/9). U.S. District Judge Richard Casey of New York -- who has called the banned procedure "brutal, barbaric and uncivilized" -- last month struck down the law, saying that it is unconstitutional because the Supreme Court has "made clear" that a health exception is required for any such law. U.S. District Judge Phyllis Hamilton of the Northern District of California in June also deemed the federal ban unconstitutional. Hamilton's ruling prevented the law from being enforced against the 900 PPFA clinics nationwide and PPFA-affiliated physicians (Kaiser Daily Reproductive Health Report, 8/27).

Complete article online
 

dolly

Member
Health reasons? Psh. The baby is half out. It's going to come out anyway. If it was a health risk, then get an abortion sooner. It is barbaric and uncivilized. Two more pushes, women, and send it to an adoption agency. There is no excuse for killing it.
 

Pah

Uber all member
dolly said:
Health reasons? Psh. The baby is half out. It's going to come out anyway. If it was a health risk, then get an abortion sooner. It is barbaric and uncivilized. Two more pushes, women, and send it to an adoption agency. There is no excuse for killing it.

If you had studied medicine and had the experience theses doctors have, I guess you might be right. Care to re-phrase that in medical terms, Dolly, so we have your professional opinion at this stage of the term?

-pah-
 

johnnys4life

Pro-life Mommy
pah said:
If you had studied medicine and had the experience theses doctors have, I guess you might be right. Care to re-phrase that in medical terms, Dolly, so we have your professional opinion at this stage of the term?

-pah-
Pah, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure this one out. And I may not be a brain surgeon, or a doctor, but I have studied anatomy and physiology in college, and I HAVE delivered a baby vaginally. Can any of those judges say that I wonder? And I can tell you this much, breech births (especially feet first) are the most dangerous type of delivery there is, even riskier than a c-section (which I almost had to have). The baby IS being born, the only difference is that the head is being deflated by having the brains sucked out first. So how is that any less harmful to a mother's health? That goes against all common sense! I can tell you from experience the most painful part of delivery is the shoulders, not that head! Delivering a dead baby is no less dangerous than delivering a healthy one, and anyone who says different has an agenda.
Which is exactly the point. Notice who's behind this, among others, Planned Parenthood. Let me define that for you: Planned Parenthood: an evil baby slaughtering organization founded by a slutty racist Natzi who thought everyone should be forced to have only one child (gee that's working out really great in China isn't it? Note that Planned Parenthood also gave the government of China a crapload of money to FORCE women to have abortions). And if you don't believe me on that you can look it up yourself.

Those organizations don't give one rat's behind about women's health. They are getting FILTHY RICH off the uneccessary murders of millions of premature babies, and any excuse they can find to keep on doing so in any way they can, for as far through a pregnancy as they can, is fine by them.
Honestly, how is a women's health EVER in jeopardy so that an abortion is going to save her instead of a delivery after about 6 months gestation. I guarantee you if it ever happens it would be extremely rare.

The people spoke. The majority vote was to ban partial-birth abortions. But just like always Planned Parenthood and many similar organizations made sure the people's voice was not heard. Is that democracy?

Realize this: every day thousands of people are using partial-birth abortion as birth control. What kind of world is this when a women decides that she doesn't want her baby, even though it is old enough to live on it's own, and she goes and has it killed and that's OKAY?? IN OR OUT, of the womb, I can tell you all, a baby has her personality by about 3 or 4 months gestation.

And who in their right mind would believe that it wasn't murder when a doctor can deliver a 38 week old baby, rub it down, warm it up and hand it to it's mother, and then go into another room the same day, partially deliver a 38 week old baby, stick scissors in it's head, suck out it's brain, and through it in the garbage? Someone please explain to me how that is NOT murder!!

This is one topic I will argue with anybody on and I bet I'll win too. It gets me VERY very upset.
 

Pah

Uber all member
johnnys4life said:
Pah, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure this one out. And I may not be a brain surgeon, or a doctor, but I have studied anatomy and physiology in college, and I HAVE delivered a baby vaginally. Can any of those judges say that I wonder? And I can tell you this much, breech births (especially feet first) are the most dangerous type of delivery there is, even riskier than a c-section (which I almost had to have). The baby IS being born, the only difference is that the head is being deflated by having the brains sucked out first. So how is that any less harmful to a mother's health? That goes against all common sense! I can tell you from experience the most painful part of delivery is the shoulders, not that head! Delivering a dead baby is no less dangerous than delivering a healthy one, and anyone who says different has an agenda.

Maneuvering largely eliminates the problems of delivering the shoulders except for the large fetus that gets struck in the birth canal. In both breach and normal presentation, the head can not be maneuvered. Not being a woman, I have to rely on http://home.entouch.net/dmd/birth.htm

Which is exactly the point. Notice who's behind this, among others, Planned Parenthood. Let me define that for you: Planned Parenthood: an evil baby slaughtering organization founded by a slutty racist Natzi who thought everyone should be forced to have only one child (gee that's working out really great in China isn't it? Note that Planned Parenthood also gave the government of China a crapload of money to FORCE women to have abortions). And if you don't believe me on that you can look it up yourself.

A search for Sanger as a Nazi turned up an absence of that fact. Racist, yes I believe she was. ****???? Come on now! That's pure emotionalism

I looked it up and assume that Planned Parenthood operates in China under the United Nations Population Fund (formerly known as UNFPA)

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/global/education/viewer.asp?ID=142
UNFPA and Abortion
* As a matter of policy, UNFPA does not provide assistance for abortions or abortion-related equipment and supplies as methods of family planning (UNFPA, Basic Facts).
* In accordance with the 1994 ICPD Program of Action, UNFPA works to eliminate unsafe abortion as a public health concern (UNPFA, Frequently Asked Questions).
I see no "crap load of money to FORCE abortions". I think you better back that up with a cite. In fact, all your assertions are without reference.


Those organizations don't give one rat's behind about women's health. They are getting FILTHY RICH off the uneccessary murders of millions of premature babies, and any excuse they can find to keep on doing so in any way they can, for as far through a pregnancy as they can, is fine by them.
Honestly, how is a women's health EVER in jeopardy so that an abortion is going to save her instead of a delivery after about 6 months gestation. I guarantee you if it ever happens it would be extremely rare.

Cite the reference for the following, please
  • Those organizations don't give one rat's behind about women's health
  • They are getting FILTHY RICH
  • The law that holds abortion to be murder

The people spoke. The majority vote was to ban partial-birth abortions. But just like always Planned Parenthood and many similar organizations made sure the people's voice was not heard. Is that democracy?

The majority voted for an unconstituional law. Only constitutional laws are upheld. And that is democracy!

Realize this: every day thousands of people are using partial-birth abortion as birth control.

Make up your mind -
from above

Honestly, how is a women's health EVER in jeopardy so that an abortion is going to save her instead of a delivery after about 6 months gestation. I guarantee you if it ever happens it would be extremely rare

What kind of world is this when a women decides that she doesn't want her baby, even though it is old enough to live on it's own, and she goes and has it killed and that's OKAY?? IN OR OUT, of the womb, I can tell you all, a baby has her personality by about 3 or 4 months gestation.

A world that respects and recognizes the right of a woman to control her own pregnancy

And who in their right mind would believe that it wasn't murder when a doctor can deliver a 38 week old baby, rub it down, warm it up and hand it to it's mother, and then go into another room the same day, partially deliver a 38 week old baby, stick scissors in it's head, suck out it's brain, and through it in the garbage? Someone please explain to me how that is NOT murder!!

You'll have the answer to that question when you supply the law that classifies abortion as murder.

This is one topic I will argue with anybody on and I bet I'll win too. It gets me VERY very upset.

I'd be very happy to have you debate me in the Formal Debate Forum. Pick any abortion subject you like. Take the affirmative position or the rebuttal position, it matters not to me. I suggest a debate of 4 rounds and a response time of 7-10 days if you are strapped for time; 5 days, if not.

-pah-
 

dolly

Member
pah said:
If you had studied medicine and had the experience theses doctors have, I guess you might be right. [/COLOR]

Yes, I don't have that experience, I'll admit. However, draining out a baby's brain wouldn't make birthing either in any situation. During partial birth abortion, the baby is basically half out. There is no need to kill it, if killing it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference in the birthing process - she still has to get it out after all.

If they don't want the baby, put it up for adoption. I am pro-choice, but I think partial birth takes it too far.
 

Pah

Uber all member
dolly said:
Yes, I don't have that experience, I'll admit. However, draining out a baby's brain wouldn't make birthing either in any situation. During partial birth abortion, the baby is basically half out. There is no need to kill it, if killing it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference in the birthing process - she still has to get it out after all.

If they don't want the baby, put it up for adoption. I am pro-choice, but I think partial birth takes it too far.

I can't tell you what the medical reason is for the doctor to choose a partial birth abortion but apparently it seems to be the best choice in some cases. The doctor doesn't do it for the fun of it.

If it is a breach presentation (and it is), the head may be the most difficult to deliver thus the reason for deflation (I don't know the medical term).

Other than the gruesome description of partial birth abortion, the effect is the same for all abortions.

-pah-
 

dolly

Member
pah said:
I can't tell you what the medical reason is for the doctor to choose a partial birth abortion but apparently it seems to be the best choice in some cases. The doctor doesn't do it for the fun of it.

If it is a breach presentation (and it is), the head may be the most difficult to deliver thus the reason for deflation (I don't know the medical term).

Other than the gruesome description of partial birth abortion, the effect is the same for all abortions.

-pah-

If you are referring to intact dilation and extraction procedures, then that is not the same as partial birth abortions. Banning partial birth does not mean that these procedures couldn't necessarily take place.

There are reasons for doing D and X procedure, but not partial birth.
 

johnnys4life

Pro-life Mommy
Sanger was a racist hate-filled Nazi.
From its beginnings, Planned Parenthood and Sanger's writings envisioned a future super-human race purified through Eugenics. The newsletter founded by Sanger "Birth Control Review" published prominent Nazis and supporters of eugenics; For example, "The danger to the community of the unsegregated feeble-minded woman is more evident. Most dangerous are the middle and high grades living at large who, despite the fact that their defect is not easily recognizable, should nevertheless be prevented from procreation. . . In my view we should act without delay." - Prof. Dr. Ernst Rudin, head of Nazi Germany's eugenics program. "Eugenics Sterlization: An Urgent Need." - Birth Control Review, Volume XVII, Number 4 (April 1933), pp. 102-4.
This is the same year Dr. Rudin collaborated with Himmler to write the German law calling for the sterilization of Jews and colored children. Also, on Planned Parenthood's board of Directors were other Nazis such as Dr. Lothrop Stoddard, author of "The Rising Tide of Color Against White Supremacy" in which he calls the Third Reich's policies of eugenics as "humanitarian."
Stoddard even had some of his writings included in Nazi school textbooks; one may sum up his philosophy in his own words that the ""Jew problem" is "already settled in principle and soon to be settled in fact by the physical elimination of the Jews themselves from the Third Reich." The Nazi Connection (Eugenics, American Racism, And German National Socialism), Stefan Kuhl, Oxford University Press, 1994, p... 62
Sanger, herself, in her "Plan for Peace" advocated the creation of concentration camps within the United States. "To apply a stern and rigid policy of sterilization and segregation to that grade of population whose progeny is already tainted. . . to apportion farm lands and homesteads for these segregated persons where they would be taught to work under competent instructors for the period of their entire lives. . ." Mararet Sanger. "Plan for Peace." Birth Control Review Volume XVI, Number 4 (April 1932), pp. 107-8.
As for the idea that Sanger was only promoting birth control through some driving urge to help the disenfranchised, poor, and underpriveliged women, she says herself that
"Organized charity itself is. . . the surest sign that our civilization has bred, is breeding and is perpetuating constantly increasing numbers of defectives, delinquents and dependents" Margaret Sanger. - The Pivot of Civilization.
Brentano's Press, NY, 1922. p. 108
Like Hitler, Sanger also specifically targeted minorities for extermination. In a private letter dated Dec. 10, 1939, Sanger wrote to Clarence Gamble (head of the Birth Control Federation of America) "We do not want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten that idea out if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members." Gamble had proposed using black religious leaders to subversively promote birth control among blacks.
As for the plight of Jews fleeing execution in Europe, Sanger wrote in favor of keeping "the doors of immigration closed to the entrance of certain aliens whose condition is known to be detrimental to the stamina of the race, such as feebleminded, idiots, morons, insane, syphilitic, epileptic, criminal, professional prostitutes, and others in this class barred by immigration laws of 1924." (once again from "A Plan for Peace," Birth Control Review, April 1932).
So much more to write, so little time.
 

johnnys4life

Pro-life Mommy
On the subject of forced abortion in China, the London Times reported on a newborn brutally drowned by five Chinese family planning officials in the village of Caidian, in the central Hubei province. The mother, Mrs Liu, had been ordered to have an abortion because she already had several children. Chinese policy allows for only one child per family. The abortion failed and the child was born healthy. Hours later, family planning officials arrived at the family's home and took away their newborn to drown him in a paddy field. The government donates a great deal of money to the UN Population Fund (Planned Parenthood was lobbying for a donation of $34 million, a buttload of money in my humble opinion), who in turn gives money to support China's family planning policies. President Bush and Congress sent over a delegation to investigate this case and numerous other abuses by the Chinese government, and upon verifying the claims, yanked the funding.
 

Pah

Uber all member
johnnys4life said:
Sanger was a racist hate-filled Nazi.
From its beginnings, Planned Parenthood and Sanger's writings envisioned a future super-human race purified through Eugenics. The newsletter founded by Sanger "Birth Control Review" published prominent Nazis and supporters of eugenics; ...

I already conceded she was a racist and yes she was in favor of eugenics in the service of her racism but she was not a Nazi. It is as much emotionalism to brand a person a Nazi as it is to declare her a ****. Walking like a duck, quaking like a duck does not make her a "goose stepping" Nazi.

I see another bold assertion about Planned Parenthood in what I've quoted and I'd like to see references and/or links. But save them for another thread.

This one is about partial birth control and the failure to recognize the Constitutional importance of a woman's health in the third trimester.

-pah-
 

johnnys4life

Pro-life Mommy
The organizations that don't give a crap about women's health are Planned Parenthood, abortion clinics, and other organizations which support the eugenics movement. A capitalist buisness based upon the philosophy of intentional murder, genocide, forced sterilization, quarantine, and racial segregation of human beings can hardly be said to have a women's best interests at heart, now can it? For a taste of where these folks would like to take us, see some ot their ties to Nazism and quotes in my post above.
They are getting filthy rich. Planned Parenthood Federation of America's income for the 1996/97 year was $ 530.9 million dollars, showing a PROFIT of $ 35.9 MILLION dollars!!! In their 2002-2003 Annual Report, they reported even more PROFITS, $36.6 MILLION dollars to be exact.
The law that bans abortion is only the highest law in the land. That is, the natural law upon which rests the Constitution of the United States and its legal predecessor the Articles of Confederation, and without which there are no recognized rights. I quote, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal , that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..." The Declaration of Independence (italics are mine)
 

Pah

Uber all member
johnnys4life said:
The organizations that don't give a crap about women's health are Planned Parenthood, abortion clinics, and other organizations which support the eugenics movement. A capitalist buisness based upon the philosophy of intentional murder, genocide, forced sterilization, quarantine, and racial segregation of human beings can hardly be said to have a women's best interests at heart, now can it? For a taste of where these folks would like to take us, see some ot their ties to Nazism and quotes in my post above.
They are getting filthy rich. Planned Parenthood Federation of America's income for the 1996/97 year was $ 530.9 million dollars, showing a PROFIT of $ 35.9 MILLION dollars!!! In their 2002-2003 Annual Report, they reported even more PROFITS, $36.6 MILLION dollars to be exact.

The law that bans abortion is only the highest law in the land. That is, the natural law upon which rests the Constitution of the United States and its legal predecessor the Articles of Confederation, and without which there are no recognized rights. I quote, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal , that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..." The Declaration of Independence (italics are mine)

Such a hodge-podge of thread topics here - would you like me to move it another thread or would you like to create one yourself?

I will answer the Constitutional questions because that is germane to this thread!
  • It is not natural law nor Christian principles that was the foundation of the Constitution. It was common law and that was separate and distinct from ecclesiastical law. That has been discussed many times and, frankly, I'm tired of hearing it again.
  • Again, you force me to repeat what has been written many times, The DOI has no force of law and, by the time the Constitution was framed, all references to any form of God were dropped in creating our government.

-pah-
 

johnnys4life

Pro-life Mommy
By the way...
Webster's dictionary
Main Entry: ****
Pronunciation: 'sl&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English slutte
1 chiefly British : a slovenly woman
2 a : a promiscuous woman;
And this is from the Margaret Sanger Papers Project: "Sanger separated from her husband, William, in 1914, and in keeping with her private views on sexual liberation, she began a series of affairs with several men, including Havelock Ellis and H.G. Wells. In 1922 she married oil magnate James Noah H. Slee, but did so on her own terms, insuring her financial and sexual independence."
I can't put the dots any closer togethor than that one. Emotional? Maybe. Fact. Yep.
Note: My definition, unlike that of Webster's, gives no regard to sex. My personal use of the term "slutty" would apply to any person, woman or man, who behaved in that manner. Perhaps a better word might be "adulterer", or "demon", but that is beside the point.
 

Pah

Uber all member
johnnys4life said:
By the way...
Webster's dictionary
Main Entry: ****
Pronunciation: 'sl&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English slutte
1 chiefly British : a slovenly woman
2 a : a promiscuous woman;
And this is from the Margaret Sanger Papers Project: "Sanger separated from her husband, William, in 1914, and in keeping with her private views on sexual liberation, she began a series of affairs with several men, including Havelock Ellis and H.G. Wells. In 1922 she married oil magnate James Noah H. Slee, but did so on her own terms, insuring her financial and sexual independence."
I can't put the dots any closer togethor than that one. Emotional? Maybe. Fact. Yep.
Note: My definition, unlike that of Webster's, gives no regard to sex. My personal use of the term "slutty" would apply to any person, woman or man, who behaved in that manner. Perhaps a better word might be "adulterer", or "demon", but that is beside the point.


You continue with your theme and I'm sorry I answered it previously. I should learn to not be swayed by strawmen and red herrings. It does not belong here. We are not talking about Planned Parenthood nor it's founder - we are talking about, to quote what I have written before,"partial birth control and the failure to recognize the Constitutional importance of a woman's health in the third trimester".

-pah-
 

johnnys4life

Pro-life Mommy
On the contrary, Pah, the founder of Planned Parenthood and origins of it's establishment is extremely relevant to this debate. I am trying to show, and daresay I have shown, that the organizations behind the effort to strike down the abortion ban are running on an agenda of their own, and therefore what they say about women's health is irrelevant because they are not credible witnesses due to vested interests in abortion.
Here is something even more relevant to the debate, from a legal standpoint:

.

(9) In Katzenbach v. Morgan (384 U.S. 641 (1966)), the Supreme Court articulated its highly deferential review of Congressional factual findings when it addressed the constitutionality of section 4(e) of the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Regarding Congress' factual determination that section 4(e) would assist the Puerto Rican community in "gaining nondiscriminatory treatment in public services," the Court stated that "t was for Congress, as the branch that made this judgment, to assess and weigh the various conflicting considerations. . . . It is not for us to review the congressional resolution of these factors. It is enough that we be able to perceive a basis upon which the Congress might resolve the conflict as it did. There plainly was such a basis to support section 4(e) in the application in question in this case." (Id. at 653).

(10) Katzenbach's highly deferential review of Congress's factual conclusions was relied upon by the United States District Court for the District of Columbia when it upheld the "bail-out" provisions of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, (42 U.S.C. 1973c), stating that "congressional fact finding, to which we are inclined to pay great deference, strengthens the inference that, in those jurisdictions covered by the Act, state actions discriminatory in effect are discriminatory in purpose". City of Rome, Georgia v. 12 U.S. (472 F. Supp. 221 (D. D. Col. 1979)) aff'd City of Rome, Georgia v. U.S. (46 U.S. 156 (1980)).

(11) The Court continued its practice of deferring to congressional factual findings in reviewing the constitutionality of the must-carry provisions of the Cable Television Consumer Protection and Competition Act of 1992. See Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. v. Federal Communications Commission (512 U.S. 622 (1994) (Turner I)) and Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. v. Federal Communications Commission (520 U.S. 180 (1997) (Turner II)). At issue in the Turner cases was Congress' legislative finding that, absent mandatory carriage rules, the continued viability of local broadcast television would be ÔÔseriously jeopardized''. The Turner I Court recognized that as an institution, "Congress is far better equipped than the judiciary to 'amass and evaluate the vast amounts of data' bearing upon an issue as complex and dynamic as that presented here" (512 U.S. at 665Ð66). Although the Court recognized that ÔÔthe deference afforded to legislative findings does Ônot foreclose our independent judgment of the facts bearing on an issue of constitutional law,' " its "obligation to exercise independent judgment when First Amendment rights are implicated is not a license to reweigh the evidence de novo, or to replace Congress' factual predictions with 14 our own. Rather, it is to assure that, in formulating its judgments, Congress has drawn reasonable inferences based on substantial evidence." (Id. at 666).


(12) Three years later in Turner II, the Court upheld the "must-carry" provisions based upon Congress' findings, stating the Court's "sole obligation is 'to assure that, in formulating its judgments, Congress has drawn reasonable inferences based on substantial evidence.' " (520 U.S. at 195). Citing its ruling in Turner I, the Court reiterated that "[w]e owe Congress' findings deference in part because the institution Ôis far better equipped than the judiciary to "amass and evaluate the vast amounts of data" bearing upon' legislative questions," (Id. at 195), and added that it "owe[d] Congress' findings an additional measure of deference out of respect for its authority to exercise the legislative power." (Id. at 6 196).

(13) There exists substantial record evidence upon which Congress has reached its conclusion that a ban on partial-birth abortion is not required to contain a ÔÔhealth'' exception, because the facts indicate that a partial-birth abortion is never necessary to preserve the health of a woman, poses serious risks to a woman's health, and lies outside the standard of medical care. Congress was informed by extensive hearings held during the 104th, 105th, and 107th Congresses and passed a ban on partial-birth abortion in the 104th, 105th, and 106th Congresses. These findings reflect the very informed judgment of the Congress that a partial-birth abortion is never necessary to preserve the health of a woman, poses serious risks to a woman's health, and lies outside the standard of medical care, and should, therefore, be banned.
 

johnnys4life

Pro-life Mommy
The fact that Margaret Sanger was definatively a **** is also relevant because it, among other evidence, shows the origins of Planned Parenthood, who is behind all this brickwalling of abortion bans, was not only not feminist, but not in the interest of women's reproductive health to begin with.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
Why can there simply be no compromise?
I think the pro-lifers would find they`d start getting more of what they wanted if they would compromise.

Go ahead and add a "womans health" clause to the ban and it will hold up.
From there all you have to do is police these abortions and make sure there really is a health reason for doing it.
I assume you wouldn`t find many.

The possibility of a breech baby the majority of the time can be determined well before the child can be delivered and a C-section can be scheduled weeks/months in advance.

The partial birth abortion is so controversial because it takes away the blurring of the line about when a fetus becomes a person.
Most times the child could indeed survive on its own if fully delivered which in my mind would make it a person

I keep hearing of health reasons that allow this procedure but no one has ever stated exactly what possible health reason would cause it to be necessary.
Anyone know of any?

I have nothing against todays Planned Parenthood although I do see that their origins are more than a little shady.
I don`t see how they are following Sangers original intent of racial eugenics now.
 

Pah

Uber all member
johnnys4life said:
On the contrary, Pah, the founder of Planned Parenthood and origins of it's establishment is extremely relevant to this debate. I am trying to show, and daresay I have shown, that the organizations behind the effort to strike down the abortion ban are running on an agenda of their own, and therefore what they say about women's health is irrelevant because they are not credible witnesses due to vested interests in abortion.
Here is something even more relevant to the debate, from a legal standpoint:

Here is something of highest relevance:

in the OP said:
Kopf's more-than-400-page ruling said that Congress' finding that the banned procedure is never medically necessary is "factually unsound," according to Reuters (Gillam, Reuters, 9/8). Kopf, who four years earlier ruled a similar Nebraska ban unconstitutional, said that the federal law is "vague" and that Congress "ignored" testimony from doctors who said the procedure is sometimes necessary to protect a pregnant woman's health, according to USA Today. Kopf wrote, "According to responsible medical opinion, there are times when the banned procedure is medically necessary ... and a respectful reading of the congressional record proves that" (Willing, USA Today, 9/9). Kopf said that one of DOJ's own witnesses testified during the trial that the procedure may be necessary to protect a woman's health, according to the World-Herald. "The long and short of it is Congress arbitrarily relied upon the opinions of doctors who claimed to have no (or very little) recent and relevant experience with surgical abortions and disregarded the views of doctors who had significant and relevant experience with these procedures," Kopf wrote (Omaha World-Herald, 9/8). Kopf's decision "echoed" the earlier rulings by federal judges in San Francisco and New York, who also struck down the law for lacking a health exception, the AP/Boston Globe reports (O'Hanlon, AP/Boston Globe, 9/9). U.S. District Judge Richard Casey of New York -- who has called the banned procedure "brutal, barbaric and uncivilized" -- last month struck down the law, saying that it is unconstitutional because the Supreme Court has "made clear" that a health exception is required for any such law. U.S. District Judge Phyllis Hamilton of the Northern District of California in June also deemed the federal ban unconstitutional. Hamilton's ruling prevented the law from being enforced against the 900 PPFA clinics nationwide and PPFA-affiliated physicians (Kaiser Daily Reproductive Health Report, 8/27).

Congress is never in a postiton to determine the constitutionality of a law

-pah-
 
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