Need help, a little disillusioned

[Sand Dancer]

I have lately been wondering why such horrible things have to happen, ie, Boston bombing, and now the OK tornadoes. I am a Christian, but wonder why these things happen to innocent people. Help me out please!

 

[Pegg]

I have lately been wondering why such horrible things have to happen, ie, Boston bombing, and now the OK tornadoes. I am a Christian, but wonder why these things happen to innocent people. Help me out please!

the bible says that 'time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all' ... basically it means that accidents/disasters happen and if we happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, we get caught up in it. Its unfortunate but that is the nature of the world we live in.

Of course if we were being governed by God, such accidents would not happen because God has to power to avert such disasters. Sadly mankind do not live under Gods governence, they live under their own independent rulerships and for that reason, God leaves it up to man to prevent disaster. We obviously cannot manage the earth and its environment on our own though as is evidenced by the many natural disters happening all around the world, we need help.

And that is why Jesus told us to pray for Gods kingdom to come. Im sure you know the 'Lords Prayer'...
'Our father in heaven, let your name be sanctified, let your kingdom come, let your will take place as in heaven also upon the earth...'
In this prayer, we are actually asking for Gods rulership to 'COME' upon the earth. If you have prayed this prayer, then you have been asking for God to rule over mankind and govern us rather then man governing us.

Gods kingdom is what we need. We will all be so much better off living under Gods governance and his care because he has the power to prevent such things....man does not.

 

[Shermana]

The idea is very similar to the Eastern concept of "Karma", it's heavily hinted at in the OT and slightly hinted in the NT.

 

[Pegg]

The idea is very similar to the Eastern concept of "Karma", it's heavily hinted at in the OT and slightly hinted in the NT.

do you really think earthquakes or hurricanes are the result of karma coming back to get you?

 

[PastorClark]

do you really think earthquakes or hurricanes are the result of karma coming back to get you?

Anything can be possible, always expect the unexpected.

 

[Pegg]

Anything can be possible, always expect the unexpected.

no, anything cannot be possible when one is assigning an event to God. God does not punish people by sending hurricanes their way. The bible makes that point very clear when it says'
James 1:13 “When under trial, let no one say: ‘I am being tried by God.’ No; for with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.


Karma is not a living entity which has knowledge of every person alive, and nor does the weather has an intelligent calculating mind.

things just happen, there is no reason behind why they have happened.

 

[PastorClark]

no, anything cannot be possible

How can God be possible? How can God let universe happen, how can we Humans and other species be possible. how can computers, TV, cell phones, cars, jets, planes, eating, drinking, talking, reading be possible?

If anything cannot be possible then i guess were not really here.

 

[Shermana]

do you really think earthquakes or hurricanes are the result of karma coming back to get you?

Yes. Everyone's placement in all events is somehow their karma. Just like when the Israelites and their women and children got butchered and enslaved by their enemies, it doesn't change no matter when or how just because some find it insensitive to think so. As opposed to just arbitrary pain and punishment for no reason of course. And this thread is not the place to debate this so I'm just going to state that I do think this 100%. And that's what many of the early Christian Jewish "Gnostics" believed too.

I'll just say "Good luck telling people it's God's will for people for their suffering and penalty to be arbitrary and unavoidable even if they're innocent".

 

[Pegg]

How can God be possible? How can God let universe happen, how can we Humans and other species be possible. how can computers, TV, cell phones, cars, jets, planes, eating, drinking, talking, reading be possible?

If anything cannot be possible then i guess were not really here.

i said anything cannot be possible 'when we are assigning events to God'

So when someone claims that it was God who caused the earthquake at Haiti because the people there are wicked, or when they claim that God kills soldier who go to to war because he hates soldiers, or when they claim that God gives people aids because he hates their immoral lifestyle.... none of those claims are possible because God assures us that he does not bring such tragedy on people

i know some preacher types like to make such claims, but they are baseless and ignorant to make such claims.

 

[Pegg]

Yes. Everyone's placement in all events is somehow their karma. Just like when the Israelites and their women and children got butchered and enslaved by their enemies, it doesn't change no matter when or how just because some find it insensitive to think so. As opposed to just arbitrary pain and punishment for no reason of course. And this thread is not the place to debate this so I'm just going to state that I do think this 100%. And that's what many of the early Christian Jewish "Gnostics" believed too.

and its for that reason that christians who were still abiding by Christs teachings were warned not to listen to the false teachers who had the so-called 'gnosis'

1Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, guard what is laid up in trust with you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called “knowledge.” (gnosis) 21 For making a show of such [knowledge] some have deviated from the faith.

 

[Shiranui117]

Simply put, crap happens because we live in a fallen world. We suffer from earthquakes, floods, tornadoes and hurricanes because we choose to build our cities in places prone to these disasters. Not everything that happens to us is a result of our sin; the two infants who died in the Oklahoma tornado certainly had no sins for which to be punished. God calls home to Him who He wills, when He wills.

Now, even if many bad things that affect us happened without any prior reason, we can still derive good from it. We can take a disaster in our life of any kind as a wake-up call to repent. If it affects many people, we can help them and do charitable works of faith, shining the Light of Christ into the world, and especially into the hearts of those we help. God draws straight with crooked lines, and if we work with Him, so can we.

 

[Sand Dancer]

It's not so much the bombing, but I definitely wonder about the seemingly random storms that wipe out small towns. I know God is supreme, but it's just hard thinking of dying a horrible death. Sometimes miracles happen and people are spared, and sometimes Godly people die in pain and suffering.

 

[Shermana]

and its for that reason that christians who were still abiding by Christs teachings were warned not to listen to the false teachers who had the so-called 'gnosis'

1Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, guard what is laid up in trust with you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called “knowledge.” (gnosis) 21 For making a show of such [knowledge] some have deviated from the faith.

I'm not here to debate you, but the Knowledge in 1 Timothy 6:20 is not remotely necessarily referring to the Gnostic teachings of the early Jewish Christians. There's a reason James the Just was called "Jacob the Gnostic" in the Talmud, so please if you want to debate this subject, do it elsewhere.

As Vincent says in his commentary:

Although Gnosticism as a distinct system did not reach its full development until about the middle of the second century, foreshadowings of it appear in the heresy at which Paul's Colossian letter was aimed. It is not strange if we find in the Pastoral Epistles allusions pointing to Gnostic errors; but, as already remarked, it is impossible to refer these allusions to any one definite system of error. The word γνῶσις cannot therefore be interpreted to mean the Gnostic system; while it may properly be understood as referring to that conceit of knowledge which opposed itself to the Christian faith.

Yeah, the word cannot be therefore interpreted to mean the Gnostic System. It's referring to people who pass off ridiculous opinions as "knowledge". (Perhaps including opinions like that God just smites and tortures various people including children even if they don't deserve it). Nice try though. You win a consolation prize for effort.

And besides, the Pastoral Epistles are Spurious to begin with but that's an unrelated issue. Although I should add, such vague statements that can apply to anyone who you disagree with are an example of why Timothy may not be so inspired.

In fact I'm going to make a thread about this.

And with that said, the early Jewish Gnostic Christians were not even necessarily "Gnostic" in the same sense as the later groups. The authors of the Pistis Sophia for example condemned the horrible unspeakable practices of those like the Ophites. They were essentially just descendents of various Essene groups who adopted Christ's teachings.

With that said, like I said, you are stuck with the response that "God just kills and torments people arbitrarily whether they deserve it or not". Let me know how that works for you.

If anything, the non-Jewish Christian groups threw practically every single one of Christ's teachings out the window, but I digress. You are stuck with the opinion that God just kills and smites whether they have earned it or not, and I find that view absolutely appalling if not blasphemous.

 

[Pegg]

You are stuck with the opinion that God just kills and smites whether they have earned it or not, and I find that view absolutely appalling if not blasphemous.

where exactly did i express that as my opinion?

 

[Shermana]

where exactly did i express that as my opinion?

I said you're stuck with it.

 

[Shermana]

Also James 1:13's "Trials" are talking about TEMPTATIONS, so no dice on that one if you're trying to use James 1:13 to totally bypass, trump, and negate everything the OT says about people's sufferings.

And to be pre-emptive about Job, that was a specific situation to test this obscenely wealthy man's faith (Which he ultimately didn't pass completely), which he lived through and was rewarded afterward in this life, and we even see that he was afraid his children were cursing God in their hearts.

 

[Pegg]

I said you're stuck with it.

im not following.....

why would I be stuck with it???

 

[Shermana]

im not following.....

why would I be stuck with it???

It's rather simple.

You are denying that God punishes all (or at least nearly all save a few very rare exceptions) people based on their karma and accrued worthiness of punishment. So logically, it follows that you are saying that innocent little children are killed in horribly painful ways without a concept of deserving it. This is the view that you are "Stuck with", that there is not necessarily reason and rythme for people's horrible horrible suffering and death. For example, starving kids in the Congo doomed to a life of slavery and abuse are just made that way just because. The other view is that such actions are all consequential and thus, fair whether we realize it or not. The "Stuck with" view is that "Bad things just happen and God makes it so because He wants to whether it's fair or not". Do I need to further clarify?

 

[Pegg]

It's rather simple.

You are denying that God punishes all (or at least nearly all save a few very rare exceptions) people based on their karma and accrued worthiness of punishment. So logically, it follows that you are saying that innocent little children are killed in horribly painful ways without a concept of deserving it. This is the view that you are "Stuck with", that there is not necessarily reason and rythme for people's horrible horrible suffering and death.

Why would God need to punish damaged stock? We are born this way. We are born in imperfection sin and death. Does God need to punish us for being born this way?

It is absurd to believe that he will punish us for being born this way.

For example, starving kids in the Congo doomed to a life of slavery and abuse are just made that way just because. The other view is that such actions are all consequential and thus, fair whether we realize it or not.

and what did all these starving children do to deserve such a punishment? A child born into poverty deserves to be starved to death???? Is that what you think God does??

The "Stuck with" view is that "Bad things just happen and God makes it so because He wants to whether it's fair or not". Do I need to further clarify?

you need to clarify why you attribute all the badness in this world to God. How could you really believe that God causes children to starve to death, or brings pain and suffering onto anyone???

where do you get that idea from?