Neighter Theist nor Atheist

[Pesho Stoqnov]

Since humans had the ability to question their surroundings and search for answers, when there were non to be found, religion was always the answer, the easy path humans chose to go. Gods were the explanation for everything that couldn't be explained otherwise. Now we live in a modern world, with a modern technology which can explain the very existence of our surroundings and put every idea we came up with to a test, to see it's plausibillity.
Of course many Gods were simply declared as "False" as others as "True" - by the people who believe in them. However Atheist on the other hand believe only the things which can be tested and proved of their existence.
The Human knowledge is very limited and as the time passes by we are going to find more answers and exclude inteligent creator as an option for our existing world. But as we know the lack of knowledge may give us a false impression about the world.

Debate for the Religious People #1

If God exists as you know him to exist, then why there are so many planets and such an incredible space in our full of incredible celestial objects which have no purpose at all by your point of view.

Debate for the Atheists #1

How can you say for sure that there isn't anything intelligent behind all that. Most of you have enough knowledge to know that artificial universe is possible. And beeing which has enough knowledge and Intelligence could create an entire Universe moving by His/Her/It 's laws . As the laws of physics work.

Debate for the Religious People #2

If your God exists as you describe him (for monotheistic religions) then he is an contradiction of Himself , everyone who have read the Bible or the Quran knows that there are contradictions therefore it was written by man. How can you be sure it's true when the human mistakes are obvious.

Conclusion:

Atheist may be right for one thing , that the religions made by humans are false , but the possibility of a supreme beeing existing is High not only for our Universe but at all. But does he care about us? A tiny segment of the universe , maybe yes but highly unlikely because no interference which is on a massive scale and paranormal happened to us all theese years so if there is a creator he doesn't really care about particulary our planet

 

[viole]

Debate for the Atheists #1

How can you say for sure that there isn't anything intelligent behind all that.

We can't. There is almost nothing we can say for sure.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Quintessence]

Just like to point out that (1) theism and religion are not the same thing, and (2) that atheism and empirical naturalism are not the same thing either.

 

[MARCELLO]

This is where I am floating

 

[Laika]

Debate for the Atheists #1

How can you say for sure that there isn't anything intelligent behind all that. Most of you have enough knowledge to know that artificial universe is possible. And beeing which has enough knowledge and Intelligence could create an entire Universe moving by His/Her/It 's laws . As the laws of physics work.

Over the past month or so ReligiousForums (RF) has been a virtual warzone over the definition of what it means to be an "atheist". its been pretty toxic so you'll have to forgive if your first thread gets ugly pretty quickly. we're normally quite nice people roundhere so don't take it personally. And with that rather bleated note, Welcome to RF. (passes newbie a helmet as bullets start flying).

My answer to this represents a view based on philosophical materialism as a basis for atheism. there are other ways to become an atheist but this is just one. (this is me waving a white flag. please don't shoot!)

The honest answer is that I cannot be sure that there isn't an intelligent designer behind the universe based on the evidence alone. Rather, I would have to employ a philosophical argument which excludes the possibility of a designer. As this is a philosophical argument rather than a scientific one, whether you believe it or not is less based on evidence but on the interpretation of the evidence.

I'll keep it simple, but basically virtually all conceptions of a god rely on the belief that consciousness can exist independently of material pheneomena. from this comes the idea that nature cannot change itself and must therefore be changed by hidden and 'supernatural forces', possibly to the extent of the creation of the universe.

If you were to argue that consciousness is a product of natural pheneomena, and of matter, that means you can only possess consciousness if you have a brain. If that propsition holds true (or if you are willing to accept it despite the uncertianty on that position) it follows that god, as a disembodied consciousness, cannot by definition exist. god is therefore impossible.

This argument is a form of philosophical materialism and has sometimes been presented as a scientific one as "scientific materialism" or "scientific atheism". however, it uses a definition of science that sharply diverges from the norms of current scientific understanding. it was more common in 19th century thinking but has fallen out of favour due to scepticism over whether science can indeed answer these kind of questions or whether there are insolvable. It therefore falls outside of the definition of "science" in the early 21st century.

if there is a creator he doesn't really care about particulary our planet

I think that's a fairly healthy view to take honestly.

 

[George-ananda]

We can't. There is almost nothing we can say for sure.

Ciao

- viole

Shouldn't you change your religion then to Gnostic Agnosticism

(I think that is what the OP is tying to say.)

 

[Ouroboros]

We can't. There is almost nothing we can say for sure.

Except for that.

The only thing we can say for sure is that we're not sure about almost anything.

 

[columbus]

Conclusion:

Atheist may be right for one thing , that the religions made by humans are false , but the possibility of a supreme beeing existing is High not only for our Universe but at all. But does he care about us? A tiny segment of the universe , maybe yes but highly unlikely because no interference which is on a massive scale and paranormal happened to us all theese years so if there is a creator he doesn't really care about particulary our planet

Well, you just described my worldview quite succinctly. I refer to it as agnostic deism.

Neither theism nor atheism, I try to just be realistic about Creation and what I know and what I don't.
Tom

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well, I am a "natural atheist" too; however, that' the first time I ever heard it put that way. I went into religion seriously later in life; so, I do have a religion just no deities.

With that said:

If God exists as you know him to exist, then why there are so many planets and such an incredible space in our full of incredible celestial objects which have no purpose at all by your point of view.

God, to me, is life. It's the myoho, the mystic law, that defines our birth, death, and rebirth. I do not see any other planet excaped from the Law. I don't see ourselves as special.

How can you say for sure that there isn't anything intelligent behind all that. Most of you have enough knowledge to know that artificial universe is possible. And beeing which has enough knowledge and Intelligence could create an entire Universe moving by His/Her/It 's laws . As the laws of physics work.

All concepts of deity relate to humans. There is no trait about God that is not either a human want (say perfection), a human need (say salvation), a human practice (say prayer that benefits the human), say belief (which explains itself). If there were no humans, there'd be no deities. They'd be life (as I define God), but deities, no.

I also don't see "intelligence" in the universe--that's a human trait (as above). Maybe pattern is a better word, in my opinion. Yet, just because we have patterns, say procreation, doesn't mean we are created too. I guess people need to have a purpose of why they are here so they attribute it to a Creator, which, to me, my Creators where my biological parents. Is it the chicken or the egg? Who knows? Maybe the answer is: 42. The more we ask, the more we need deities (or our faiths).

Atheist may be right for one thing , that the religions made by humans are false , but the possibility of a supreme beeing existing is High not only for our Universe but at all. But does he care about us? A tiny segment of the universe , maybe yes but highly unlikely because no interference which is on a massive scale and paranormal happened to us all theese years so if there is a creator he doesn't really care about particulary our planet

Religions aren't false. Spirits are real just as people believe deities are. The situation (rather than probem) is that we don't see the mind as the core of our experiences when it comes to spiritual things and the supernatural. I believe in the Buddha and He says everything comes from the Mind. "The Mind is Buddha and the Buddha is Mind. What more can they be outside Buddha?" (Zen quote from WND)* We think because it's spiritual it has to be "higher" or "more intelligent" than ourselves-our own mind that perceives and defines what we experience with our five senses. How we were raised, our culture, and beliefs or lack of beliefs we were indoctionated with, help shape our reality of the world. Is it THE reality? The Buddha says we only know this when we reach enligtenment. It is when we gone passed the duality and pass the final fig leaf of life/death.

Anyway, our religions and faiths are from our mind and perceptions and definitions to which our minds create. Outside the mind there is no such thing as "chair", only a block of wood, with four legs, a seat, and a back. There is no such thing as "love" until there is a relationship between X and Y or oneself (maybe in prayer) to make the cause and we interpret the affect as "love"--many people say its from God.

However, religions arent false. Our supernatural experiences are all unique; however, the Buddha says they all come from the mind. If we can accept that (hence why some believe in visualizations to conduct prayers), we can ehance our spiritual life while not puting ourselves down by saying our "human half" is not worth more than the spiritual half.

-

I can talk for hours about this. I love religion; it is my life. I love spirituality, it makes me who I am. I love my practice, it IS who I am. I just know, in my opinion, that Ineed to accept this comes from my mind and what is from my mind defines what my heart feels (based on the physiological and psychological feelings produced by mind).

That's what "heart" is. A combination of a "woof!" feeling we get when things click, we connect the dots based on our preconcieved ideas, culture, and outlook, and how we interpret it based on the books (say scripture), body (say meditation), and mind (say prayer).

No one has ever told me a religion or belief with traits that are separate from "creation" (universe inclued).

 

[George-ananda]

Debate for the Religious People #1

If God exists as you know him to exist, then why there are so many planets and such an incredible space in our full of incredible celestial objects which have no purpose at all by your point of view.

I think the assumption in that question that I disagree with is that physical life like ours is the only type of life in the universe. I believe there are many planes and dimensions to the universe containing life and the physical part we know is maybe 4% of the whole thing. I disagree with the assumption that if they are not life forms we can see with our eyes then they don't exist. So I believe there are myriads of life forms that are very, very different from us involved with this massive universe in ways we don't understand yet. Basically this question is too homocentric.

 

[George-ananda]

Atheist may be right for one thing , that the religions made by humans are false , but the possibility of a supreme beeing existing is High not only for our Universe but at all. But does he care about us? A tiny segment of the universe , maybe yes but highly unlikely because no interference which is on a massive scale and paranormal happened to us all theese years so if there is a creator he doesn't really care about particulary our planet

I think the universe is best understood by the non-dual (God and creation are not-two) pantheistic worldview. The concept of God interfering comes from a dualistic worldview (God and creation are separate). It sounds like you are saying God made some goofs so now He needs to interfere if He cares; or that He didn't know what was going to happen from the beginning.

In Advaita pantheism this is all the script of God/Brahman and will end joyously in the Oneness of all. The expansion of consciousness takes eons and short temporary suffering has its place in the script. Suffering is to be defeated in the end.

 

[ether-ore]

Since humans had the ability to question their surroundings and search for answers, when there were non to be found, religion was always the answer, the easy path humans chose to go. Gods were the explanation for everything that couldn't be explained otherwise. Now we live in a modern world, with a modern technology which can explain the very existence of our surroundings and put every idea we came up with to a test, to see it's plausibility.
Of course many Gods were simply declared as "False" as others as "True" - by the people who believe in them. However Atheist on the other hand believe only the things which can be tested and proved of their existence.

This acknowledges your starting point... that you believe that man made up God rather than God revealed Himself to man. What you say about atheists who believe that only those things which can be tested and proved are real, can be phrased this way... if I can't see it, it doesn't exist. Or better yet, if I cover my eyes so that I can't see him, then he can't see me.

The Human knowledge is very limited and as the time passes by we are going to find more answers and exclude intelligent creator as an option for our existing world. But as we know the lack of knowledge may give us a false impression about the world.

While you acknowledge that human knowledge is limited and that they have false impressions of the world, at the same time, you want to say that increased knowledge will prove the nonexistence of God. How is it you can anticipate what increased knowledge will yield unless you are claiming omniscience for yourself? That is like those people running the SETI program (Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence) who are convinced that there is other life in the universe and who spend millions of tax payer dollars on the project, yet at the same time, absolutely deny any possibility that such intelligent life out there could be God. It begs the question of 'how can you know that'? On what basis is the presumption of what you will find?

Debate for the Religious People #1
If God exists as you know him to exist, then why there are so many planets and such an incredible space in our full of incredible celestial objects which have no purpose at all by your point of view.

Your assumption about purpose is self interested. Why would you think the matter in the universe has no purpose just because it doesn't accommodate human purpose? How can you know that it does not accomplish God's purposes? On a more basic level, matter just is... it serves its own purpose just by being if one considers that matter can neither be created or destroyed and that it can only change state (if God acts on it).

Debate for the Atheists #1
How can you say for sure that there isn't anything intelligent behind all that. Most of you have enough knowledge to know that artificial universe is possible. And being which has enough knowledge and Intelligence could create an entire Universe moving by His/Her/It 's laws . As the laws of physics work.

Hubris

Debate for the Religious People #2
If your God exists as you describe him (for monotheistic religions) then he is an contradiction of Himself , everyone who have read the Bible or the Quran knows that there are contradictions therefore it was written by man. How can you be sure it's true when the human mistakes are obvious.

Please specify the contradiction(s) in the Bible you are referring to.

Conclusion:
Atheist may be right for one thing , that the religions made by humans are false , but the possibility of a supreme being existing is High not only for our Universe but at all. But does he care about us? A tiny segment of the universe , maybe yes but highly unlikely because no interference which is on a massive scale and paranormal happened to us all these years so if there is a creator he doesn't really care about particularly our planet [/QUOTE]

For you to say that God does not care; that makes another assumption... that you know (without question) what God's purposes are.

Concerning God's purposes... We are eternal beings whom God is helping to progress. As a part of this progression, we were placed (temporarily) in this mortality, to see if we will keep God's commandments on our own and also, to gain experience in using a physical body (something we never had before). Because we are on our own (in the sense that we are being tested to see how we will use our free agency), as men abuse the physical powers given them, it follows that we (as a group) will have to bear the consequences of those collective choices. God wants to prove to us what we will do when faced with all the vicissitudes and exigencies of mortality. This life is not the end all, be all of existence. We have entered this "room" of mortality by the door of birth as children, and when we have broken all the toys in the room, we will exit the room through the door of death. Then... God will judge us according to how well we played with others. God will judge each individual on how they responded to the challenges they faced (however horrific). Consider the Book of Job.

 

[viole]

Except for that.

The only thing we can say for sure is that we're not sure about almost anything.

That is why I said "almost"

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Shouldn't you change your religion then to Gnostic Agnosticism

(I think that is what the OP is tying to say.)

Good question. i should, shouldn't I?

But I do not like the idea of being ignorant about everything. So I will settle for some knowledge even if I am not dead sure about anything I know, that goes beyond analytical propositions. But that is ok. Knowledge does not entail absolute certainty. If it did, something like scientific knowledge would be an oxymoron.

Ciao

- viole

 

[George-ananda]

Good question. i should, shouldn't I?

But I do not like the idea of being ignorant about everything. So I will settle for some knowledge even if I am not dead sure about anything I know, that goes beyond analytical propositions. But that is ok. Knowledge does not entail absolute certainty. If it did, something like scientific knowledge would be an oxymoron.

Ciao

- viole

I hear what you are saying and don't disagree. But we all (myself included) need to watch that we don't become too attached to our declared position that we lose our ability to open-mindedly listen and seriously try to understand other positions.

 

[viole]

I hear what you are saying and don't disagree. But we all (myself included) need to watch that we don't become too attached to our declared position that we lose our ability to open-mindedly listen and seriously try to understand other positions.

I am very open mind to listen to new positions. I sometimes close it when I understand them. Especially when they are just a bunch of deepities without evidence

Ciao

- viole