Nelson Mandela

[metis]

I'm surprised that no thread had been started on a man whom has long been a hero to me. He was not a perfect man by any means, nor am I, but what he was able to accomplish was nothing short of remarkable. I feel a need to honor him, which is why I post this, because I do believe he's one of the Greats. Shalom, my friend, and you will be remembered.

 

[Flankerl]

Never really understood the fascination with the man.

He is usually idolised and all the bad stuff forgotten.
Also his mission for South Africa simply failed. ANC is rather racist and crazy. The idea of a Rainbownation is dead.

And if you think that Zuma is a xenophobe then wait for the next elections and Malema with his EFF. Its only going to be worse.

 

[YmirGF]

Never really understood the fascination with the man.

He is usually idolised and all the bad stuff forgotten.

Like his long time wife, Winnie. The things she did were almost as bad as the people she was supposedly fighting. To his credit, when Nelson found out just how bad she was he could not distance himself quickly enough.

 

[CMike]

I am certaintly no fan of him.

He was a terrorist and a communist.

He was also extremely anti-Israel and a bud of Yasser Arafat.

 

[Flankerl]

He was ... a communist.

You shouldnt use words you dont understand.

 

[metis]

As I mentioned before, there's aspects of what Mandela believed in and did that I didn't and don't agree with, but what he was able to accomplish in South Africa defied even what many experts thought would likely happen if democratic rule became their m.o. as many predicted a blood-bath of major proportions.

Mandela did indeed believe in Marxism when he left Gandhi's stance on non-violence after the massacre of a non-violent protest by the S.A. government, but that changed after he was released as he came to believe that a democratic form of government should be created and that he would only run for one term and did. Also, he did not nationalize the utilities and major industries, which Marxists try to do.

Was Mandela a "terrorist"? Is fighting against oppression "terrorism"-- or are they "freedom-fighters"? Depends on one's perspective.

And Mandela fought against racism, often using sports to try and bring the races closer together while as president.

 

[Sunstone]

Was Mandela a "terrorist"? Is fighting against oppression "terrorism"-- or are they "freedom-fighters"? Depends on one's perspective.

Out of curiosity did Nelson Mandela ever try to spread terror among civilians as a means of bring about his political and social objectives? I myself don't know. But I do recall that Winnie Mandela was once involved in "necklacing". That doesn't mean Nelson was, though.

 

[metis]

Out of curiosity did Nelson Mandela ever try to spread terror among civilians as a means of bring about his political and social objectives? I myself don't know. But I do recall that Winnie Mandela was once involved in "necklacing". That doesn't mean Nelson was, though.

Early on, yes he did, and this is one of the reasons he was arrested and spent time in prison. To me, one of my disappointments with him was his abandonment of non-violence.

 

[Sunstone]

Early on, yes he did, and this is one of the reasons he was arrested and spent time in prison. To me, one of my disappointments with him was his abandonment of non-violence.

I was wondering about that. Thanks for the info.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Early on, yes he did, and this is one of the reasons he was arrested and spent time in prison. To me, one of my disappointments with him was his abandonment of non-violence.

So what did he actually do that was so bad? (Genuine question)

 

[metis]

So what did he actually do that was so bad? (Genuine question)

Essentially the overthrow of the government, which to me wasn't so bad. However, some of the tactics he advocated when he was younger were not something I was in favor of.

To me, the Nelson Mandela story is a lot like the Malcolm X story-- a person who became radicalized because of what he saw and experienced, but then mellowed as time went on. However, he still strongly felt even in older age that many governments and many large businesses and corporations were very much hurting people throughout much of the world with political and economic repression.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Essentially the overthrow of the government, which to me wasn't so bad. However, some of the tactics he advocated when he was younger were not something I was in favor of.

To me, the Nelson Mandela story is a lot like the Malcolm X story-- a person who became radicalized because of what he saw and experienced, but then mellowed as time went on. However, he still strongly felt even in older age that many governments and many large businesses and corporations were very much hurting people throughout much of the world with political and economic repression.

Yep don't see the problem with over throwing the government even by violent means, it's called defending yourself.
What tactics?

 

[Mycroft]

Essentially the overthrow of the government, which to me wasn't so bad. However, some of the tactics he advocated when he was younger were not something I was in favor of.

To me, the Nelson Mandela story is a lot like the Malcolm X story-- a person who became radicalized because of what he saw and experienced, but then mellowed as time went on. However, he still strongly felt even in older age that many governments and many large businesses and corporations were very much hurting people throughout much of the world with political and economic repression.

A lot of American and British history is peppered with acts of 'terrorism' that would rival and even surpass anything Mandela may or may not have signed off on.

 

[Mycroft]

Yep don't see the problem with over throwing the government even by violent means, it's called defending yourself.
What tactics?

Supposedly the use of car bombs, which killed innocent people. Which the MK (the organisation that Mandela was a part of) there is no real evidence that Mandela signed off on, or had any knowledge of these tactics in use during his time in prison (they weren't used before or after his imprisonment, leading us to conclude radicalism took over the MK without his direct guidance).

 

[metis]

Yep don't see the problem with over throwing the government even by violent means, it's called defending yourself.
What tactics?

He personally did not advocate the use of tactics that intentionally targeted innocent people, but some who were with him did. I don't really know the details of their activity or specifically which tactics they chose that did as such however. At his first trial, he was acquitted when it was established that he didn't advocate targeting people, but was eventually found guilty later for using sabotage against the government and trying to overthrow it.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

He personally did not advocate the use of tactics that intentionally targeted innocent people, but some who were with him did. I don't really know the details of their activity or specifically which tactics they chose that did as such however. At his first trial, he was acquitted when it was established that he didn't advocate targeting people, but was eventually found guilty later for using sabotage against the government and trying to overthrow it.

Ok so he was awesome got ya

 

[Sunstone]

Wasn't Mandela responsible for South Africa giving up the bomb?

 

[metis]

Wasn't Mandela responsible for South Africa giving up the bomb?

Good question but I don't know the answer, so I'll have to google that later.

 

[CMike]

Words of wisdom from Mandela

7. On the U.S. war with Iraq:

“If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don’t care for human beings.”
Via cbsnews.com

6. On Israel:

“Israel should withdraw from all the areas which it won from the Arabs in 1967, and in particular Israel should withdraw completely from the Golan Heights, from south Lebanon and from the West Bank.”
Via jweekly.com

5. On the U.S. war with Iraq:

“All that (Mr. Bush) wants is Iraqi oil.”
Via cbsnews.com

4. Mandela on Castro and the Cuban revolution:

“From its earliest days, the Cuban Revolution has also been a source of
inspiration to all freedom-loving people. We admire the sacrifices of the Cuban people in maintaining their independence and sovereignty in the face of the vicious imperialist-orquestrated campaign to destroy the impressive gain made in the Cuban Revolution. … Long live the Cuban Revolution. Long live comrade Fidel Castro.”
Via lanic.utexas.edu

3. Mandela on Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi, his longtime supporter:


“It is our duty to give support to the brother leader … especially in regards to the sanctions which are not hitting just him, they are hitting the ordinary masses of the people … our African brothers and sisters.”
Via finalcall.com

2. On the U.S. preparing to invade Iraq in a 2002 interview with Newsweek:


“If you look at those matters, you will come to the conclusion that the attitude of the United States of America is a threat to world peace.”
Via newsweek.com

1. On a Palestinian state:

“The UN took a strong stand against apartheid; and over the years, an international consensus was built, which helped to bring an end to this iniquitous system. But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.”
Via cbsnews.com

 

[metis]

Words of wisdom from Mandela

7. On the U.S. war with Iraq:

“If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don’t care for human beings.”
Via cbsnews.com

Probably said over anger and definitely over-kill, but not entirely wrong by any stretch of the imagination. The handling of the war on Iraq was essentially dishonest on multiple counts, and thus we saw Cheney refusing to testify when issued a subpoena by Congress to explain the supposed intelligence that got us into that war. That refusal would have been impeachable, but there were only months left in his term as V.P.

6. On Israel:

“Israel should withdraw from all the areas which it won from the Arabs in 1967, and in particular Israel should withdraw completely from the Golan Heights, from south Lebanon and from the West Bank.”
Via jweekly.com

I certainly do not agree with him here.

5. On the U.S. war with Iraq:

“All that (Mr. Bush) wants is Iraqi oil.”
Via cbsnews.com

Seriously, does anyone here really think that oil wasn't our main motive for going in?

4. Mandela on Castro and the Cuban revolution:

“From its earliest days, the Cuban Revolution has also been a source of
inspiration to all freedom-loving people. We admire the sacrifices of the Cuban people in maintaining their independence and sovereignty in the face of the vicious imperialist-orquestrated campaign to destroy the impressive gain made in the Cuban Revolution. … Long live the Cuban Revolution. Long live comrade Fidel Castro.”
Via lanic.utexas.edu

I'm old enough to remember what life was like in Cuba under Batista, and Castro may well have been the lesser of the two evils, as terrible as that was.

3. Mandela on Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi, his longtime supporter:


“It is our duty to give support to the brother leader … especially in regards to the sanctions which are not hitting just him, they are hitting the ordinary masses of the people … our African brothers and sisters.”
Via finalcall.com

I don't agree at all with him here.

2. On the U.S. preparing to invade Iraq in a 2002 interview with Newsweek:


“If you look at those matters, you will come to the conclusion that the attitude of the United States of America is a threat to world peace.”
Via newsweek.com

Overstated, but certainly not entirely wrong. Even our European allies highly disliked and didn't trust Bush, and for very good reason.

1. On a Palestinian state:

“The UN took a strong stand against apartheid; and over the years, an international consensus was built, which helped to bring an end to this iniquitous system. But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.”
Via cbsnews.com

I agree with this in general, but the devil's in the details as I have long been in favor of a two-state solution.

OK, obviously you and I don't like some of his beliefs and some of his statements, but let me ask you a question: should I consider you to be some sort of enemy or one who is evil because you don't agree with me on everything? I have long felt that Bush (W) was a terrible president overall, but I never demonized him, nor do I think it was fair for some others to demonize him.

OK, so you didn't like Mandela maybe as much as I did, and that's fine, but I do believe in giving credit where credit's due, and what Mandela pulled off in South Africa even defied many of the experts. He mellowed with age, which also often happens with some of the rest of us.