Are there neo-Cathar groups or individuals?
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Neo-Catharism?
- Thread starter Saint Frankenstein
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LampunHenki
Member
I was very interested in the Cathars, but lack of knowledge about them has made my interest in them weaker. I would love to know for example, did they have holy books, which have been lost. And I've read that the Gospel of John was very important for them, but did they interpret it allegorically, since literal interpretation doesn't suit their theology very well.
But to answer the question, I don't know any good neo-Cathar groups. However, there's a cult led by John of the Holy Grail. Anyone can make up their own mind, if they are Cathars or not. And then I also found 'Assembly of Good Christians', but there hasn't been any activity since 2009.
But to answer the question, I don't know any good neo-Cathar groups. However, there's a cult led by John of the Holy Grail. Anyone can make up their own mind, if they are Cathars or not. And then I also found 'Assembly of Good Christians', but there hasn't been any activity since 2009.
Augustus
…
Just in case you are interested:
In the beginning there were two principles, good and evil. The God of light made all light and spiritual things, while the God of darkness, the devil, made all evil and all shadows and some of the angels. The devil and his angels tricked Lucifer and some of his angels, who were people of the God of light. The devil, Lucifer, and his angels fell from heaven. One of the good angels with some of his fellows traveled to the shadows to recover Lucifer and his fallen angels. The devil, termed the great dragon, and Lucifer together created the world in six days, with the God of light permitting them to do so. They seized the good angel and his associates and took from him his crown and splendor, and used them to make the lights that are in the firmament. Lucifer repented of the trick that had deceived the God of light, and in concord with the dragon made man from the earth. The dragon wished man to be immortal, but Lucifer wished him mortal, and he was made mortal. They placed the angel who had come to rescue Lucifer and his angels, the angel whose crown they had stolen, in the body of a man, namely Adam. They made for Adam a woman associate and this race of men afterward existed in the body and forgot all of the good and retained the gods that had made their bodies. Lucifer ordered them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good, namely not to commingle themselves together, and the dragon made them collude together, that is commingle themselves...
When the dragon saw that man was mortal, he repented, and with the permission of the God of light, he sent a flood over all the earth; Lucifer, with permission from the God of light, preserved Noah and his associates. The dragon had the tower of Babel made and created many kinds of languages, so that if someone came from the celestial kingdom to preach, men would not understand him. Then Lucifer spoke to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, showing them the God of light, and so handed down the law of Moses, and they were saved. The God of light spoke through the prophets, announcing the coming of the son of God, and said that John was sent by the God of light. He said that the son of God came in the Blessed Virgin Mary, who was made of superior elements, and took flesh from her and not from these elements, and descended from heaven with one hundred forty- seven thousand angels. After death he descended to hell and brought back with him the holy fathers and the prophets and those who had obeyed the prophets. On the day of Pentecost he sent the Holy Spirit and taught the apostles all languages, contrary to the one who had confused the languages, and said that this Holy Spirit and none other has salvation...
He believes that none are saved without the imposition of hands and says that no confession of sin is required of those who come to their faith for the first time. He said that nothing can be done or given toward salvation through an evil priest or minister. He said the Roman Church does not have the Catholic faith, nor is there any salvation in it, nor can any be saved through it, and all the constitutions of the Roman Church are abominated. He condemned marriage [and the] consumption of meats, cheese, and eggs, and [he] entirely prohibited oaths. Concerning the body of Christ and baptism, no faith should be placed in the Roman Church...
When the dragon saw that man was mortal, he repented, and with the permission of the God of light, he sent a flood over all the earth; Lucifer, with permission from the God of light, preserved Noah and his associates. The dragon had the tower of Babel made and created many kinds of languages, so that if someone came from the celestial kingdom to preach, men would not understand him. Then Lucifer spoke to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, showing them the God of light, and so handed down the law of Moses, and they were saved. The God of light spoke through the prophets, announcing the coming of the son of God, and said that John was sent by the God of light. He said that the son of God came in the Blessed Virgin Mary, who was made of superior elements, and took flesh from her and not from these elements, and descended from heaven with one hundred forty- seven thousand angels. After death he descended to hell and brought back with him the holy fathers and the prophets and those who had obeyed the prophets. On the day of Pentecost he sent the Holy Spirit and taught the apostles all languages, contrary to the one who had confused the languages, and said that this Holy Spirit and none other has salvation...
He believes that none are saved without the imposition of hands and says that no confession of sin is required of those who come to their faith for the first time. He said that nothing can be done or given toward salvation through an evil priest or minister. He said the Roman Church does not have the Catholic faith, nor is there any salvation in it, nor can any be saved through it, and all the constitutions of the Roman Church are abominated. He condemned marriage [and the] consumption of meats, cheese, and eggs, and [he] entirely prohibited oaths. Concerning the body of Christ and baptism, no faith should be placed in the Roman Church...
Carol Lansing
https://books.google.co.id/books?id=b__a_-0s0mgC&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false
(from Chapter 5 which can be viewed on Google Books.)
Either would interest me.
allfoak
Alchemist
I will take a risk and throw this link in the mix.
It may not be what you are looking for but it is pure Gnosticism, that is certain.
This is cutting edge material that is found nowhere else on the internet.
Enjoy.
http://masterindex.nazirene.org/
It may not be what you are looking for but it is pure Gnosticism, that is certain.
This is cutting edge material that is found nowhere else on the internet.
Enjoy.
http://masterindex.nazirene.org/
That looks like a quite interesting site, so thanks for that. But I'm unsure what it has to do with Gnosticism, specifically Gnostic dualism which is what I'm most interested in.I will take a risk and throw this link in the mix.
It may not be what you are looking for but it is pure Gnosticism, that is certain.
This is cutting edge material that is found nowhere else on the internet.
Enjoy.
http://masterindex.nazirene.org/
allfoak
Alchemist
If you take the time to explore i think you will see that it is a pure form of Gnosticism.
In your opinion, how exactly is what is taught on that site Gnostic?
If you find something of worth in it, that's fine. But consider me skeptical.
allfoak
Alchemist
That's fine.
I gave you access to the links to the majority of his writings but if you want some specific information i may be able to help.
I promise you that what is being taught at this site is what you would find in the teachings of the Cathars and many others like them that were hunted down and killed for what they taught.
Try this link.
http://treeoflife.nazirene.org/
nazz
Doubting Thomas
Looks more like a Nazarene Ebionite site which historically was diametrically opposite the gnostic view though in the later form of Elchasaism there was some fusion.
Yeah, I don't think it has much to do with Gnosticism at all.
Phillip Turner
New Member
They considered the gospel of john the holiest and most true gospel and used other still surviving texts such as the interrogation of john also known as the secret supper, the vision of Isaiah. There are two theological books written by cathars called the book of two principles and an unnamed treatise often called a manichaen treatise. They believed Satan corrupted 1/3 of the angels (144,000) and that he made Adam and Eve with two of the angels. They believed in reincarnation as well as the birth of new spirits as well as some people achieving enlightenment and escaping to the realm of the hidden god thus escaping the cycle of birth. They weren't a unified sect and beliefs differed in different locales. They were very similar and thought to be related to the bogomils and paulicians.
LampunHenki
Member
I hope that you'll prove that I'm wrong, but in my opinion the gospel of John in its present form can't possibly be the holy book of the Cathars. That's because as I'm trying to read it, I keep on finding passages that are contradictory with the Cathar teachings. I give just a few examples:
1:10 "He was in the world, and the world was made by him..."
...I think that the Cathars taught that the world was made by Satan.
1:14 "And the Word was made flesh..."
...The Cathars taught that flesh was so corrupt that Jesus had no flesh... they taught that he was like a ghost.
2:16 "...make not my Father's house a house of merchandise."
...Jesus is talking about the temple. It was built for the god of the old testament, wasn't it; and I think that the Cathars taught that he is Satan.
These were passages in which even I could spot contradictions against the Cathar theology, and there're many more. That's why I believe that the Cathars possessed the original gospel of John (which was destroyed by the Church), which was in accordance to their theology, because the present gospel is corrupted and they possessed one written by John anyway. And they probably had many more sacred texts, which were destroyed.
And I think that even those precious surviving fragments of the Cathar literature like interrogation of John have been heavily redacted by the Church.
LampunHenki
Member
The Cathars believed that the god of the Hebrew bible was NOT the Most High. They believed that the god of the Hebrew bible was Satan himself. If you read more about the Cathars, you would come into same conclusion. It's insignificant what your Bible tells. The Bible is just a collection of books redacted by the Catholics, the enemies of the Good Christians. The Bible was already completely redacted in the days of Marcion.