New info on "Quran Scientists"

[Meow Mix]

So, I did some digging because I'm constantly being bombarded by Muslims showing me videos and talking about these Western scientists who made these comments about being so convinced by the Quran.

This is what I found.

It turns out that there was indeed a Saudi-supported commission for getting the scientists to interview on the subject with Sheikh Abdul Majeed Zindani. In a 2002 Wall Street Journal report by some of the scientists so extorted:

"The commission drew the scientists to its conferences with first-class plane tickets for them and their wives, rooms at the best hotels, $1,000 honoraria, and banquets with Muslim leaders — such as a palace dinner in Islamabad with Pakistani President Mohammed Zia ul-Haq shortly before he was killed in a plane crash. Ahmed also gave at least one scientist a crystal clock.

Scientists complained of having fallen into a "trap" in interviews, or of "mutual manipulation" by the scientists and fundamentalists. Even the man who had been the Bucailleists most enthusiastic supporter, embryologist Keith L. Moore who had an edition of his textbook financed by Bucailleists and co-written with Sheikh Abdul Majeed Zindani, declined to be interviewed and told the newspaper, “it’s been 10 or 11 years since I was involved in the Quran.”

So, seems like many of RF's hunches were right when we were asking "Were they on anybody's paycheck?"

The answer is yes, they were on Saudi paychecks and heavily coerced at that.

Not one of them converted to Islam afterward. Why do some Muslims keep using these examples? Are they trying to embarrass Islam with this farce?

 

[DeitySlayer]

*Applause*

 

[Kilgore Trout]

So, I did some digging because I'm constantly being bombarded by Muslims showing me videos and talking about these Western scientists who made these comments about being so convinced by the Quran.

I think I love you. Do you think you might want to get a drink some time if my penis ever falls off and I grow a pair of boobs?

 

[Caladan]

Not one of them converted to Islam afterward. Why do some Muslims keep using these examples? Are they trying to embarrass Islam with this farce?

It does make it impossible to discuss the relevant issues in which Islam is part of.
It discredits the achievements of Islam, and it presents Islamic legacy as a cheap commodity.
I look at history, the poetry of Jalaluddin Rumi, the contributions of Ibn Khaldoun to various fields, the explorations of Ibn Fadlan. and I look at the poor superstitions, pseudo-science and other tragic expressions, and its easy to see, that many Muslims themselves fail to understand the real treasury of various elements in Islamic culture and history. it is sad that the other kind try without success to stand on the shoulder of other giants, and in the way bury all the legacy they have left behind.

 

[Meow Mix]

I think I love you. Do you think you might want to get a drink some time if my penis ever falls off and I grow a pair of boobs?

Hmm I dunno you'll still have that pesky SRO gene/y chromosome.

lol

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Not one of them converted to Islam afterward. Why do some Muslims keep using these examples? Are they trying to embarrass Islam with this farce?

Firstly:

Meow i have to say this forum has become a more interesting place since you arrived. I'm glad you did.

Secondly:

When you are trying to prove the existence of an imaginary/invisible being with ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE you will latch onto anything that supports your argument. No matter how stupid it is.

They aren't trying to embarass islam they just aren't smart enough to know that they are.

-Q

P.S. I also would love to buy you a drink so i could pick your brain, but i'm keeping my penis.

 

[TashaN]

Firstly:

Meow i have to say this forum has become a more interesting place since you arrived. I'm glad you did.

Most definitely, regardless of whether i agreed with her or not.

 

[Atomist]

It's almost as good as the "all holy book except [insert holy book of their religion] is full of errors and therefore [insert holy book] is the one true book written by god".

At least we can agree with one thing: logic, reason and truth are hard.

 

[TashaN]

So, I did some digging because I'm constantly being bombarded by Muslims showing me videos and talking about these Western scientists who made these comments about being so convinced by the Quran.

This is what I found.

It turns out that there was indeed a Saudi-supported commission for getting the scientists to interview on the subject with Sheikh Abdul Majeed Zindani. In a 2002 Wall Street Journal report by some of the scientists so extorted:

So, seems like many of RF's hunches were right when we were asking "Were they on anybody's paycheck?"

The answer is yes, they were on Saudi paychecks and heavily coerced at that.

Not one of them converted to Islam afterward. Why do some Muslims keep using these examples? Are they trying to embarrass Islam with this farce?

That's really interesting. Whether this was their real motivation for saying some stuff about the Quran or not, i just want to point out that Saudi Arabia is usually very generous with Westerners in general. Now, imagine if those Westerners had something nice to say about the Quran!

Heck, the government treat the Westerners who work in Saudi Arabia way better than their own citizens. Any Westerner who ever lived and worked in Saudi Arabia knows this.

 

[Meow Mix]

That's really interesting. Whether this was their real motivation for saying some stuff about the Quran or not, i just want to point out that Saudi Arabia is usually very generous with Westerners in general. Now, imagine if those Westerners had something nice to say about the Quran!

Heck, the government treat the Westerners who work in Saudi Arabia way better than their own citizens. Any Westerner who ever lived and worked in Saudi Arabia knows this.

I understand what you're saying -- I hope America would treat guests well, too -- but it seemed a little excessive. Also the bribery (or we'll say "alleged" bribery) was only part of it: the scientists outright said (when interviewed by Wall Street Journal) that they were heavily coerced and that there was "manipulation." I'm not sure what they meant by that but it doesn't sound like a comfortable position to be in. I might just start saying what they wanted to hear too if I was some poor scientist in a great ruler's court that was feeding me $1,000 and crystal watches just waiting for me to placate them.

In any case all that stuff isn't really that relevant. I think the biggest key fact is that none of the scientists who some Muslims say support Islam ended up converting to Islam, and none of them (with the exception of Keith L. Moore) ever mentioned the Quran again -- and even Keith L. Moore stopped bothering with it too (telling the W.S. Journal that he hadn't had anything to do with the Quran in "10 to 11 years.")

If the scientists were REALLY so impressed with the Quran to the point that they believed it was inspired by Allah as some of them said, why on earth wouldn't they have converted?

In any case, counting on what a few scientists say (just because they say so) is a fallacious argument from authority anyway.

I just wanted to bring that stuff to light to show good-intentioned Muslims that they are harming Islam's integrity by using those quotes and examples.

Edit: Also the Muslims who use those scientists' quotes should realize that it harms Islam's integrity by relying on fallacious appeals to authority, too.

 

[TashaN]

I understand what you're saying -- I hope America would treat guests well, too -- but it seemed a little excessive. Also the bribery (or we'll say "alleged" bribery) was only part of it: the scientists outright said (when interviewed by Wall Street Journal) that they were heavily coerced and that there was "manipulation." I'm not sure what they meant by that but it doesn't sound like a comfortable position to be in. I might just start saying what they wanted to hear too if I was some poor scientist in a great ruler's court that was feeding me $1,000 and crystal watches just waiting for me to placate them.

In any case all that stuff isn't really that relevant. I think the biggest key fact is that none of the scientists who some Muslims say support Islam ended up converting to Islam, and none of them (with the exception of Keith L. Moore) ever mentioned the Quran again -- and even Keith L. Moore stopped bothering with it too (telling the W.S. Journal that he hadn't had anything to do with the Quran in "10 to 11 years.")

If the scientists were REALLY so impressed with the Quran to the point that they believed it was inspired by Allah as some of them said, why on earth wouldn't they have converted?

In any case, counting on what a few scientists say (just because they say so) is a fallacious argument from authority anyway.

I just wanted to bring that stuff to light to show good-intentioned Muslims that they are harming Islam's integrity by using those quotes and examples.

Edit: Also the Muslims who use those scientists' quotes should realize that it harms Islam's integrity by relying on fallacious appeals to authority, too.

If a luxury life, money, and gifts was motivating those scientists to say what they said about the Quran when they came to Saudi Arabia, so i can see too why they would say what you have mentioned to the Wall Street Journal. They might have been trying to clean their image or try to be famous by saying such a thing because that was the purpose of the publisher in allowing their stories to be read in his journal? I think this possibility can't be easily left unnoticed, don't you think so?

Anyhow, I'm genuinely interested on what these scientists have said exactly word for word, so could you please direct me to some links where i can read those articles in the Wall Street Journal? That would be a great discussion to have with my fellow Muslims, not necessarily in RF.

 

[skydivephil]

If a luxury life, money, and gifts was motivating those scientists to say what they said about the Quran when they came to Saudi Arabia, so i can see too why they would say what you have mentioned to the Wall Street Journal. They might have been trying to clean their image or try to be famous by saying such a thing because that was the purpose of the publisher in allowing their stories to be read in his journal? I think this possibility can't be easily left unnoticed, don't you think so?

Anyhow, I'm genuinely interested on what these scientists have said exactly word for word, so could you please direct me to some links where i can read those articles in the Wall Street Journal? That would be a great discussion to have with my fellow Muslims, not necessarily in RF.

Here is the originl article:
Western Scientists Comment on their alleged Support for Scientific Miracles in Koran

 

[Looncall]

It does make it impossible to discuss the relevant issues in which Islam is part of.
It discredits the achievements of Islam, and it presents Islamic legacy as a cheap commodity.
I look at history, the poetry of Jalaluddin Rumi, the contributions of Ibn Khaldoun to various fields, the explorations of Ibn Fadlan. and I look at the poor superstitions, pseudo-science and other tragic expressions, and its easy to see, that many Muslims themselves fail to understand the real treasury of various elements in Islamic culture and history. it is sad that the other kind try without success to stand on the shoulder of other giants, and in the way bury all the legacy they have left behind.

It is a terrible tragedy that islam turned away from its glorious legacy and opted for ignorance and superstition instead. That has not served muslims well.

 

[Revoltingest]

Why do some Muslims keep using these examples? Are they trying to embarrass Islam with this farce?

First, I'm concerned that you spend so much time on Islamic research. Don't let your physics & social life suffer.
Second, some people suffer from a weakness - they need to justify themselves to others.
They'll try so hard, that they're blind to their own folly, making themselves look foolish.
I've a theory that the best PR campaign is to not have a PR campaign.

 

[bowingtoGod]

ah I thought so. I read the passages themselves and I was like "hmmm I see how it could be interpreted that way. But I don't think so "
And I am Muslim hahahaha

 

[YmirGF]

ah I thought so. I read the passages themselves and I was like "hmmm I see how it could be interpreted that way. But I don't think so "
And I am Muslim hahahaha

How incredibly refreshing. The point is, when one looks at the original Arabic without the diacritical marks, the text can mean much... and also... very little.

 

[bowingtoGod]

How incredibly refreshing. The point is, when one looks at the original Arabic without the diacritical marks, the text can mean much... and also... very little.

diacritical? You mean like the ayn and the hamza? And there is a verse in the Qur'an that is interpreted differently between Muslims. It goes something like this
And none of its (the Qur'an) hidden meanings are known but only to Allah and the wise say:
see some people say it means only God knows, and others say wise people can know too.

 

[painted wolf]

I think anyone who tries the "science agrees with my faith" card has too little faith of their own. (not to mention more than a little science envy)

If science is so much a threat to your faith that it has to be wrong to keep your religion right... you need more faith.

wa:do

 

[bowingtoGod]

I think anyone who tries the "science agrees with my faith" card has too little faith of their own. (not to mention more than a little science envy)

If science is so much a threat to your faith that it has to be wrong to keep your religion right... you need more faith.

wa:do

Salaam
hahaha true!!

 

[gnostic]

I've only hear claims from some Muslims here, that scientists believe that scientific miracles found in the Qur'an to be true, but nothing from the international scientific community. Seriously, I think that the scientists turning to the Qur'an to be nothing more than exaggeration and propaganda.

The medieval Muslim scientists deserved every credits for their discoveries and contributions towards science. These claims, made by today Muslims, about modern science link to their scriptures, do not contribute to science at all, so the Islam/Qur'an don't deserve credits for vague passages that were taken out of context to fit the needs of these some insecure and envious Muslims.

They are only deceiving themselves, and make Islam look bad.