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Newbie: I think i'm a Christian-Atheist but perhaps debate here will change that.

Omega Green

Member
Greetings reader;

I left and deconverted from a traditional uniting church in 2001 and have spent much time in the past 15 years reading philosophy books; anything philosophy; I like the rationalists and the existentialists and the new atheists. Any suggestions on particular forums that are good for debating atheism and perhaps also liberal Christianity? Aside from Bishop Spong and Karen Armstrong I don't really have much interest in the standard claims of generic theologians, apologists or, theists.

Jolly good day!
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Greetings!

Enjoy some typical atheist fare.....
Bacon-76791.gif
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
Hey Omega! Welcome to RF! Perhaps a debate here will change that; we have lots of opinions here :)
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Greetings reader;

I left and deconverted from a traditional uniting church in 2001 and have spent much time in the past 15 years reading philosophy books; anything philosophy; I like the rationalists and the existentialists and the new atheists. Any suggestions on particular forums that are good for debating atheism and perhaps also liberal Christianity? Aside from Bishop Spong and Karen Armstrong I don't really have much interest in the standard claims of generic theologians, apologists or, theists.

Jolly good day!

Hey Omega,

RF is a very diverse community and many members here are atheists so you are more than welcome to debate and express your views. I don't know the Christians here very well but I suspect they, like many others on the forum, are more liberal than conservative.

Alternatively you may be interested in Christianforums.com or atheistsforum.org (among others if you search google) if you are looking for something more exclusive.

Welcome to RF. I hope you enjoy your time here. :)
 

uncung

Member
Greetings reader;

I left and deconverted from a traditional uniting church in 2001 and have spent much time in the past 15 years reading philosophy books; anything philosophy; I like the rationalists and the existentialists and the new atheists. Any suggestions on particular forums that are good for debating atheism and perhaps also liberal Christianity? Aside from Bishop Spong and Karen Armstrong I don't really have much interest in the standard claims of generic theologians, apologists or, theists.

Jolly good day!
what about you learn Islam?
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
Welcome - you'll probably find some stuff you are looking for in the various debate sections, other than Same Faith Debate they are open and pretty active.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Welcome to the forums. Sponge huh? He makes an important contribution by pointing out problems. Comes across as more subversive than reformist and could learn some things from George Fox, but I like him.
 
Greetings reader;

I left and deconverted from a traditional uniting church in 2001 and have spent much time in the past 15 years reading philosophy books; anything philosophy; I like the rationalists and the existentialists and the new atheists. Any suggestions on particular forums that are good for debating atheism and perhaps also liberal Christianity? Aside from Bishop Spong and Karen Armstrong I don't really have much interest in the standard claims of generic theologians, apologists or, theists.

Jolly good day!

I'm confused as to how one could be Christian and Atheist simultaneously.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
I'm confused as to how one could be Christian and Atheist simultaneously.
Christian Philosophy has nothing to do with personal faith in God.
It's just like when you studied Hellenistic Philosophy in school. You could relate to the teachings and mythologies and whatnot, but you most likely lack faith in Zeus, right? It's not different.

In many ways, I'm a "Christian Atheist". I was raised and educated in the Christian dogmas and they are a huge part of my life. But I don't believe in it anymore than I believe any other religious mythology.
I'm very much an atheist when it comes to the concept of deity, especially a personal one. But I can debate scripture with you all day long and I live by a daily set of morals and standards that were definitely shaped by American Christianity.

It's not complicated or conflicting at all.
 
Christian Philosophy has nothing to do with personal faith in God.
It's just like when you studied Hellenistic Philosophy in school. You could relate to the teachings and mythologies and whatnot, but you most likely lack faith in Zeus, right? It's not different.

In many ways, I'm a "Christian Atheist". I was raised and educated in the Christian dogmas and they are a huge part of my life. But I don't believe in it anymore than I believe any other religious mythology.
I'm very much an atheist when it comes to the concept of deity, especially a personal one. But I can debate scripture with you all day long and I live by a daily set of morals and standards that were definitely shaped by American Christianity.

It's not complicated or conflicting at all.

Oh, OK. The reason I initially reacted like that was because Christianity and atheism are very different beliefs.

So you're an atheist who subscribes to Christian morality.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Christian Philosophy has nothing to do with personal faith in God.
It's just like when you studied Hellenistic Philosophy in school. You could relate to the teachings and mythologies and whatnot, but you most likely lack faith in Zeus, right? It's not different.

In many ways, I'm a "Christian Atheist". I was raised and educated in the Christian dogmas and they are a huge part of my life. But I don't believe in it anymore than I believe any other religious mythology.
I'm very much an atheist when it comes to the concept of deity, especially a personal one. But I can debate scripture with you all day long and I live by a daily set of morals and standards that were definitely shaped by American Christianity.

It's not complicated or conflicting at all.

I had to read this a couple of times. Christianity as a religion is a personal faith and a belief in god and in his existence. Christianity as a philosophy is not. When you say you are a Christian atheist, it sounds confusing because Christianity is more seen as a religion rather than a philosophy. It goes beyond morals and belief in god and Jesus are not mythology but an actual entity, spirit, and person with whom Christians form an relationship with and faith in. In that sense only, I don't understand how anyone can be a Christian atheist.

If Christianity is seen only a philosophy, then I assume the bible is more analogy rather than direct instruction of how god and what god says in order for believers to follow, worship, and believe in him. If its the former, than yes, I can see how you can take up the morals of it's philosophy while not believing in the foundation of it. If it's the latter, than I am at a loss of how anyone can not believe in god but believe in morals of a god that they believe does not exist. It's like learning a lesson from a non-existent teacher.

Please explain?
 

Omega Green

Member
I'm confused as to how one could be Christian and Atheist simultaneously.

Well, I was Christian quite pro-actively in the mid to late 90's; then I deconverted back to an Atheist. Then I studied a bit of bishop Spong and Karen Armstrong and have since been enjoying both their liberal "theology" (if you'd consent to call it theology - because its non-theistic theology). Basically, the kind of Christianity Bishop Spong is talking about is one that embraces the death of the theistic God - who i've been calling Omnimax (omnipotent / omniscient / omnibenevolent / omnipresent etc). Bishop Spong is trying to reform Christianity to exist without the theistic God. It's the paradox of being both a passionate non-theist and a committed Christian. One can be an Atheist and still retain a sense of something important to the experience of Christ (however, there is much debate about what, in fact, we can know Jesus to have said - and i'm also open to mythicism - which is the view that Jesus didn't even exist and was merely a celestial cult concept that simply grew in Mediterranean popularity. I don't believe Jesus was the pinnacle of humanity's existence); I don't believe the bible is inerrant; I affirm the use of logic and reason; although existentialists probably make the best case to my mind that we need more than reason to get by. Though that said, reason and drugs, music and books would probably be enough to keep me quite content for a long time coming. :) So Bishop Spong is defining "God" as "the ground of all being" rather than as a being who exists separate to us; a non-anthropomorphic energy - more of a that-ness than a who-ness. Since "theism" is the belief in a supernatural personal God, it's perfectly compatible to affirm "God" as the ground of all being, and still remain an atheist. Being a Christian-Atheist is taking the Christian tradition beyond Theism, having concluded theism is quite inadequate for the 21st century.

I'm impressed by the replies here; this seems like a very cool forum. Thanks for your question I hope that helps OTPEuJill42.
 

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
When you say you are a Christian atheist, it sounds confusing because Christianity is more seen as a religion rather than a philosophy.

I agree with this. Of course people can call themselves whatever they want, and I understand the concept of "Christian-Atheist" as described here, but it is a little confusing. I feel a Christian has to believe at least a certain base of things, and Jesus being the Son of God is one...which of course would presume a God.

I was raised Catholic, I can still draw on lessons framed by the religion of my youth. I can turn the other cheek and love my enemy like Jesus. I can follow the 10 commandments and embrace ideas like giving to the poor and not to be judgmental of people. I just don't feel those things are enough to call myself Christian or Catholic. Not that I would want to associate myself with the criminal organization that is the Catholic Church, but that's another story.

Again, I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from calling themselves whatever they want. I just think if you definitely don't believe in a God, using a traditional religious label like Christian is misleading.
 

Omega Green

Member
I had to read this a couple of times. Christianity as a religion is a personal faith and a belief in god and in his existence. Christianity as a philosophy is not. When you say you are a Christian atheist, it sounds confusing because Christianity is more seen as a religion rather than a philosophy. It goes beyond morals and belief in god and Jesus are not mythology but an actual entity, spirit, and person with whom Christians form an relationship with and faith in. In that sense only, I don't understand how anyone can be a Christian atheist.

If Christianity is seen only a philosophy, then I assume the bible is more analogy rather than direct instruction of how god and what god says in order for believers to follow, worship, and believe in him. If its the former, than yes, I can see how you can take up the morals of it's philosophy while not believing in the foundation of it. If it's the latter, than I am at a loss of how anyone can not believe in god but believe in morals of a god that they believe does not exist. It's like learning a lesson from a non-existent teacher.

Please explain?

Okay sure, I perceive "God" to be a presence at the very heart of life itself - not a being with a personality and personality traits that resemble the personalities of human beings who is obsessed with reward and punishment. I concur with many of Einstein's statements on this matter, such a God-image is modeled off of our own humanity; albeit expanded beyond human limits. I think the reverse of Genesis is true; and that we made the supernatural personal god out of our self-images. It's certainly the most parsimonious explanation for the abundant faith traditions on offer throughout the world. So what was once for me an elaborate and sort of ritualistic church lifestyle, is now essentially reduced to affirming human flourishing and well-being; and I sense that as God - you might say that god is something that we do, rather than someone we distantly praise.

You are correct in assuming that I don't take the bible to be the literal or perfect word of a supernatural creator; I think that is a preposterous position to hold and the only way I could manage to do it was back when I'd barely read much of the bible. There is much in the way of morally absurd injunctions in the bible that most benign Christians will ignore. But it is faint praise indeed if the best that can be said of much of scripture, is that it can now be safely ignored.

I reject the view that God sent Jesus to die for our sins. To me it is not much of a surprise why abuse scandals have become a church stereotype, given the central traditional liturgy of the death of Jesus as the penalty for human sins. I accept evolution; hence I do not believe there was an initial perfection from which the human race fell. Rather perfection is yet to be achieved for we are still evolving. If there was no original fall, then there was no need for the rescue operation that traditional Christianity ventures Jesus as the ultimate solution for. Jesus is still a mystery in the sense that there is almost too much uncertainty about what he said. The most reliable gospel is probably Mark; but even it is written 40 odd years after the crucifixion. But for an example, in Mark 9 Jesus teaches "He who is not against us, is for us" - a wise maxim that to my mind implies that our diversity can be a good thing; - so long as nobody is acting directly against you, it is safe to assume some common humanity. However, when you get to Matthew 12, the author completely changes the meaning of the saying, into "He who is not with me, is against me". - and this saying tends to be the one the churches go with. Now, unless you have a fish sticker on your car you run the risk of being somehow "against Jesus". Matthew, I believe, really tried to portray Jesus as this great religious leader, when it is quite possible that things didn't start out that way. So the historical Jesus is still a study interest of mine. But rituals like prayer and worship, i've simply re-translated into the perennial affirmation of human well-being and flourishing; and my lifestyle is in effect what I offer in place of hymns and love songs to the skies. Assuming the historical Jesus, I believe that he died in order to prove his teachings; to complete what he envisioned as his work; not as a ransom paid for you and me.

To the specifics of your question; moral propositions can be assessed independent of the personal source. Plus if you're talking about biblical morals, well I credit them to human authorship obviously. But we can certainly examine the ethical propositions of any book from any age and muse upon the value of the historical contribution. I believe in the ethical teachings of the little red hen from my childhood, but obviously I never believed in the existence of a speaking hen. Hope that answers your question - it is exactly like learning a lesson from a non-existent teacher. :)
 
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Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
Being a Christian-Atheist is taking the Christian tradition beyond Theism

Here's a question. What's special to you about the Christian tradition that you can't derive from other sources? Why, if your next statement is "having concluded theism is quite inadequate for the 21st century" (which I like a lot), do you feel the need to grasp on to your theistic roots?

In other words, why not just be atheist and develop your own moral/spiritual path, untethered from Christianity which carries so much baggage?
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
I had to read this a couple of times. Christianity as a religion is a personal faith and a belief in god and in his existence. Christianity as a philosophy is not. When you say you are a Christian atheist, it sounds confusing because Christianity is more seen as a religion rather than a philosophy. It goes beyond morals and belief in god and Jesus are not mythology but an actual entity, spirit, and person with whom Christians form an relationship with and faith in. In that sense only, I don't understand how anyone can be a Christian atheist.

If Christianity is seen only a philosophy, then I assume the bible is more analogy rather than direct instruction of how god and what god says in order for believers to follow, worship, and believe in him. If its the former, than yes, I can see how you can take up the morals of it's philosophy while not believing in the foundation of it. If it's the latter, than I am at a loss of how anyone can not believe in god but believe in morals of a god that they believe does not exist. It's like learning a lesson from a non-existent teacher.

Please explain?
I think Omega Green pretty much covered it in his response to this question.

I honestly think that pigeon-holing Christianity (or any religion) into your first description of it is detrimental to the possible growth of that faith. While your description is certainly accurate for many people, and it may even be an "official" description of the primary tenets of the faith, it's necessarily limiting in its scope.

Christianity, as with any faith system, is populated by people with a much more fluid faith than what is officially accepted. How many hundreds of thousands of people sit in church pews ever Sunday and don't ACTUALLY believe everything that they are supposed to believe?

I'm just as much a Buddhist Atheist and a Hindu Atheist as I am a Christian Atheist, if we are basing my personal descriptors over the faith and values systems on the amount of literature and influence that any of these subsets have had on my life. I'm a touch Islamic, given my experiences living in Saudi Arabia - but I'm still an atheist. I've been around a few native pagan cultures as well, and I've garnered a bit of perspective from their adoration of nature spirits and I've experienced different ways of opening the mind using natural "medicines" - but I'm an atheist. So I can refer to my self as a Pagan Atheist, which seems like a complete oxymoron until you look past your initial understanding and connotations associated with the word.

Every single person on this forum has gone through some type of spiritual and ideological transformation as they figure out who they are and what it is that they believe. Atheism is no different. I don't believe in Santa Claus - yet I yearly enjoy and experience the traditions that I've formed around Christmas time. I let my kids actively participate in something that I intellectually reject as a plausible happening... It's really no different than that.
 
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