"Nice Work Creating New Terrorists, You Morons"

[Sunstone]

Anyone who thinks torturing folks and killing civilians is a good idea might do well to read this:

Guest Post: Nice Work Creating New Terrorists, You Morons « naked capitalism

 

[McBell]

seems to me that the closing of Guantanamo Bay is merely a token gesture so long as Bagram remains.

No surprise though.
Obama is becoming quite well versed in tossing out scraps instead of actually doing something.

 

[Sunstone]

seems to me that the closing of Guantanamo Bay is merely a token gesture so long as Bagram remains.

No surprise though.
Obama is becoming quite well versed in tossing out scraps instead of actually doing something.

Agreed to both points.

 

[Oberon]

Anyone who thinks torturing folks and killing civilians is a good idea might do well to read this:

Guest Post: Nice Work Creating New Terrorists, You Morons « naked capitalism

While the use of torture by americans is deplorable, and does and fuel to the fire, I don't think you can blame 9/11, the previous attack on the trade towers, the embassy bombings, and all the other attacks prior to 9/11, on the use of torture, particularly given that countries in the middle east bring torture to a whole new level. In addition, they fundamentalist have no problem killing civilians. Finally, America has not been the only target for terrorist attacks from fundamentalists. I think it has much more to do with america being one of the largest and most interfering capitalist nations, and supporting Israel.

Just my opinion.

 

[McBell]

While the use of torture by americans is deplorable, and does and fuel to the fire, I don't think you can blame 9/11, the previous attack on the trade towers, the embassy bombings, and all the other attacks prior to 9/11, on the use of torture, particularly given that countries in the middle east bring torture to a whole new level. In addition, they fundamentalist have no problem killing civilians.

um...
Who is doing that?

 

[Valjean]

While the use of torture by americans is deplorable, and does and fuel to the fire, I don't think you can blame 9/11, the previous attack on the trade towers, the embassy bombings, and all the other attacks prior to 9/11, on the use of torture, particularly given that countries in the middle east bring torture to a whole new level. In addition, they fundamentalist have no problem killing civilians. Finally, America has not been the only target for terrorist attacks from fundamentalists. I think it has much more to do with america being one of the largest and most interfering capitalist nations, and supporting Israel.

Just my opinion.

The 9/11 attack was primarily because of the Prince Sultan air base, according to al Queda. But Bin Laden has stated that US' misbehavior in the middle East is Al Queda's best recruiting tool. This is what's breeding terrorists.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Oh, but a kinder gentler America was going to remove all threats to our country.

Terrorists don't give a damn about human rights. :sorry1:

 

[Harshtotem]

The Relinquishment of Guantanomo Bay is akin to the the British handover of Hong Kong which officially signal the UK weakening global strenght and the demise of the Commonwealth

 

[dogsgod]

Oh, but a kinder gentler America was going to remove all threats to our country.

Terrorists don't give a damn about human rights. :sorry1:

That's right, and the US are the terrorists.

 

[Reverend Rick]

That's right, and the US are the terrorists.

I would like for you to hang out in Yemen for a while.

 

[Oberon]

The 9/11 attack was primarily because of the Prince Sultan air base, according to al Queda. But Bin Laden has stated that US' misbehavior in the middle East is Al Queda's best recruiting tool. This is what's breeding terrorists.

I would agree that the US' tendency to involve itself in the affairs of other countries, particularly the middle east, makes it more hated by fundamentalists than other western "satanic/godless/heathen" countries. However, I would still argue that this is less to do with the use of torture and killing civilians and more to do with just general military and other US presence, as well as the US's friendship with Israel.

 

[Valjean]

Opposition is the price of empire. Even a well behaved empire is resented, and the US hasn't been particularly well-behaved. How would Americans react if their country were occupied or controlled by foreign puppetmasters?

We create the resentment and the terrorists. We could end it easily enough if we abandoned the expensive game of empire and turned our attention to improving the quality of life in our own country. But then we would be like France, wouldn't we?

 

[Oberon]

But then we would be like France, wouldn't we?

Are you arguing they haven't been subjected to terrorist attacks by fundamentalists? They have.

Opposition is the price of empire. Even a well behaved empire is resented, and the US hasn't been particularly well-behaved.

The US isn't an empire. At most, the US is "controlling" one other country through occupation, and occupying one other (afghanistan). Yet Iraq has its own government, and the US hardly controls afghanistan.

 

[Valjean]

It was mostly a joke, Oberon, playing on America's peculiar aversion to things French and France's tendancy to put the welfare of it's citizens before foreign policy concerns.

America most certainly is an empire!
We've been manipulating world politics and economy for a century. We are the world puppetmasters. Our language is lingua franca and our currency the world reserve standard. Our military bases are everywhere.

Read some history!

 

[Oberon]

America most certainly is an empire!
We've been manipulating world politics and economy for a century. We are the world puppetmasters. Our language is lingua franca and our currency the world reserve standard. Our military bases are everywhere.

Read some history!

I am aware of all of that (though I think puppetmasters is more than a little inaccurate. However, an empire means occupying and controlling lands. The US has enormous power and influence in global affairs. But it doesn't run them. Otherwise France would have gone to Iraq, North Korea wouldn't have nuclear arms, and so forth.

 

[Valjean]

The US doesn't need an occupation to control a country, just a co-operative ruling class that can be bought off.
We pretty much controlled all of South and Central America with hardly any occupation. Where do you think the terms "banana republic" or "gunship diplomacy" came from?

 

[Oberon]

We pretty much controlled all of South and Central America with hardly any occupation.

Tell that to the cartels. Or to the corrupt government officials there.

 

[Valjean]

Tell that to the cartels. Or to the corrupt government officials there.

What's that got to do with it?

 

[Oberon]

What's that got to do with it?

The point is having studied a number of actual empires, I can see the difference between a country wielding, for good or evil (or both), enormous influence, and an empire.

But this is all off topic. The issue is whether torture and civilian killing by the US is the cause fundamentalist terrorism. I have argued that

1) fundamentalists have for decades been far more likely to kill civilians, as well as use torture
2) America isn't the only country attacked by terrorists, meaning it can't be just america that upsets fundamentalists
3) American presence in what are thought to be (by fundamentalists) or are Islamic countries, as well as friendship with Israel, are far more upsetting than the reasons given in the OP's cited article.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Terrorists don't give a damn about human rights. :sorry1:

So by not giving a **** about terrorists' human rights we become terrorists. In trying to stop terrorists, we must always avoid becoming exactly what we are trying to stop.