Nirvana

[joea]

The ultimate goal in Buddhism is Nirvana; yet the more I look into it, it seems that we become non existent once we attain to it. Once the candle is put out( blowing out of existence ), we are no more....then what is the point?.
Your thoughts on this please.

 

[Breathe]

This came to my mind just yesterday night as well, actually.

I'd like to subscribe to this thread to see the answers put forth from my Dharmic brothers.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

The ultimate goal in Buddhism is Nirvana; yet the more I look into it, it seems that we become non existent once we attain to it. Once the candle is put out( blowing out of existence ), we are no more....then what is the point?.
Your thoughts on this please.

Dear joea,
I do not belong to any particular belief but, as I am currently in correspondence with a Catholic priest and therefore reading his Bible, I wish to comment in relation to the Catholic faith.

To me, what you describe resembles what I feel the "Rapture" to be all about: when the time comes for reality (as we know it today) to end, those truly close to "God", will vanish; all others, will suffer through the inevitable extinction of their being.

As a Buddhist, I assume you too will understand the suffering mentioned above to refer to the not being ready, or at all willing to "give up" one's personal Ego. Were such an inability to coincide with an otherwise collective understanding, acknowledgement and acceptance of the non-existence of physicality, it would likely cause great suffering to those affected.

Then, there is the question of what it actually means to truly be close to "God" and physically vanish; which is what I am "translating" your Buddhist thread to be about.

Remember, that abandonment of the Ego which is joea and joea alone; separate from all other separated individualities in the world of senses - though it may (once fully accomplished) signify the end of joea the person; the human being of flesh and blood - is by no means the end of what is truly you.

For what is truly you is not your Ego, but rather what is left once that is removed. Perhaps you encounter it during meditation, or maybe through practise, you have the ability to keep it in constant presence and live your days by its beautiful, selfless good-will. Either way, I am sure you know which part I refer to as truly being you. And I am certain you know that this part is also truly me [and truly everybody else as well]?

To me, the vanishing of Ego leads to our personal vanishing, which is the vanishing, not only of physical perspective itself, but more importantly, that of all distinction and particularity. In the end, there is only "God" and the Universe, our world and everything in it, has only ever been about "God".

The point in living, dying and everything else then, is comprehending your [but not joea's] actual being and its relation to existing at all.

Hermit

 

[koan]

No rapture, no remorse, no giving oneself over to emotions. Nirvana is a state whereby one understands ones place in the universe and there abides. Nirvana is a mental state. One may only attain this mental state when one has become enlightened. No God, no Mara, No one.

 

[LuisDantas]

As Koan said

 

[Engyo]

The ultimate goal in Buddhism is Nirvana; yet the more I look into it, it seems that we become non existent once we attain to it. Once the candle is put out( blowing out of existence ), we are no more....then what is the point?.
Your thoughts on this please.

Nirvana is one of the ultimate goals in Buddhism. Another is perfect enlightenment, from the Mahayana perspective. The Bodhisattva path involves bringing all beings to the point of awakening, not just ones self to the point of extinction.

 

[Tashi]

Nirvana means extinguish or to eliminate.
According to the Prasangika Madhyamaka, it would be a form of extremism to say when you reach Nirvana that you are completely non-existent.
Your still there, you still exist. Understand that the base Consciousness, Alayavijnana, is eternal.
But it nonetheless is in a constant state of change. In the Abhidharma Consciousness is defined as interconnected acts of Cognizance.
These acts pop in and out and back in to existence.
This shows that the sequence itself is eternal, but it is still subject to change, it is also still empty.

So, your Alayavijnana will always be there, there should be no fear of complete non-existence. We just dont exist inherently.

 

[Breathe]

We just dont exist inherently.

Could you explain what you mean by this, please?

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Nirvana means extinguish or to eliminate.
According to the Prasangika Madhyamaka, it would be a form of extremism to say when you reach Nirvana that you are completely non-existent.
Your still there, you still exist. Understand that the base Consciousness, Alayavijnana, is eternal.

I much agree with you here, Tashi. For, although one can see how this state initially could be mistaken for complete non-existence, it turns out it be something quite different.
And, in relation to my earlier comment, it is precisely in understanding this difference, that an individual physically would "vanish". Should this sort of understanding some day occur collectively, the physical world [which I believe illusive anyhow] would at once, cease to exist [which is what I personally interpret Catholicism to imply too].

 

[Tashi]

Could you explain what you mean by this, please?

Sure!

Inherent existence means that something has an essence. It means something exists from its own side, independently. Lets take a chair for an example. Lets find out if the chair has an essence, or inherently exists.

Is the chair its legs- no, then any leg would be a chair
Is the chair the actual seat where you put your bum- no, then anything that you sit on would be a chair. That would mean that the ground, a box, a table, anything could be a chair.
Is a chair the sum of all that is above- no, you cant make a chair out of a bunch of things that are not chair.

When you search for the chair you see a few legs and a flat surface, where is the chair? Is it the legs, or the flat surface, no its neither. Then is it the legs and flat surface together, no because you cant take two things that are not chair and make a chair.

Therefore one must conclude that "chair" is a conceptual label upon some aggrigates, but that the chair itself does not exist outside the mind, its simply a label upon some form.

 

[Engyo]

Therefore one must conclude that "chair" is a conceptual label upon some aggrigates, but that the chair itself does not exist outside the mind, its simply a label upon some form.

In addition, the chair was once parts of at least one and maybe several trees. Before that, the molecules that currently make up the wood were part of soil and water and air. It became a chair when acted upon by humans or their machines. At some point in future, it will become dust, or kindling, or wood fragments, or wood ash & smoke, or something else besides "chair" once again.

 

[joea]

Nirvana means extinguish or to eliminate.
According to the Prasangika Madhyamaka, it would be a form of extremism to say when you reach Nirvana that you are completely non-existent.
Your still there, you still exist. Understand that the base Consciousness, Alayavijnana, is eternal.
But it nonetheless is in a constant state of change. In the Abhidharma Consciousness is defined as interconnected acts of Cognizance.
These acts pop in and out and back in to existence.
This shows that the sequence itself is eternal, but it is still subject to change, it is also still empty.

So, your Alayavijnana will always be there, there should be no fear of complete non-existence. We just dont exist inherently.

So we simply dissolve back into the universe, if I could put it that way?

 

[Tashi]

In addition, the chair was once parts of at least one and maybe several trees. Before that, the molecules that currently make up the wood were part of soil and water and air. It became a chair when acted upon by humans or their machines. At some point in future, it will become dust, or kindling, or wood fragments, or wood ash & smoke, or something else besides "chair" once again.

But there is no dust, no kindling, or wood. Its all labels upon a form.

 

[Tashi]

So we simply dissolve back into the universe, if I could put it that way?

What universe?

 

[Engyo]

But there is no dust, no kindling, or wood. Its all labels upon a form.

From one perspective, that's true. But if that were all, you couldn't sit on the chair, could you? The middle way says that while it is all labels on a form, it is also a chair that you can sit on.

 

[Tashi]

From one perspective, that's true. But if that were all, you couldn't sit on the chair, could you? The middle way says that while it is all labels on a form, it is also a chair that you can sit on.

Is what your saying that there is a chair, but it does not exist on its own side? Meaning that it exists, but not inherently. Because I agree with that, that is what the Prasangika Madhayamika's say. Everything exists, but not inherently.

So there is a chair, but there is not a chair.

 

[LuisDantas]

Or, there is a chair, but only and while the adequate interdependent conditions for its existence hold true.

 

[joea]

What universe?

Maybe universe is the wrong word to use..will come back to you soon, to fully understand this thanks..

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The ultimate goal in Buddhism is Nirvana; yet the more I look into it, it seems that we become non existent once we attain to it. Once the candle is put out( blowing out of existence ), we are no more....then what is the point?.
Your thoughts on this please.

Hi joea, IMO the reality meant to be represented by the concept of nirvana needs to be realized directly for enlightenment, the mundane mind's conceptualizations about it are just imagined mental constructs.

These conceptualizations may indeed be frightening but it is only those who overcome the conceptual fear of 'extinction' will go on to become a tathagata.

 

[joea]

Hi joea, IMO the reality meant to be represented by the concept of nirvana needs to be realized directly for enlightenment, the mundane mind's conceptualizations about it are just imagined mental constructs.

These conceptualizations may indeed be frightening but it is only those who overcome the conceptual fear of 'extinction' will go on to become a tathagata.

ben,d Pranam....thanks