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No conflict between God and science

Brian2

Veteran Member
Wha....??????

"Science comes up with answers that cannot be tested and cannot be shown to be wrong"
What's wrong with that? But of course you have to understand that I am talking about the scientific answers for exactly what may have happened in the beginning and as the earth was established the way God wanted. Not all the details can be tested and not all the theories can be tested even if they may be accepted because of the "no supernatural interference" policy in science, which means that the best naturalistic answers are the right ones until more data shows itself.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Let's put it this way.

IF there is a God, then he/she/it is the originator of the universe. So science cannot produce and answer that is different than how that happened.

The *real* question is whether the Bible is really the word of God. If it disagrees with the science, then we know it is not.

Why do you think that science can come up with what happened if indeed God is the originator?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
And that says it all. Anything other than this universe is pure speculation. it is unknowable.

So, we can look at what can be known and learn about it through observation and testing of our hypotheses.

Any religion that conflicts (demonstrably) with what we learn from the universe must, by necessity, be wrong.

Any religion that has no conflict is at least consistent with what can be known, even if it is unprovable.

Yes true, and the Bible is consistent imo. BUT of course science may be able to see what may have happened but how and why are always going to be naturalistic answers in science when the real answer could be that God did it,,,,,,,,,,in whatever way He chose.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I think most interpretations of Genesis are eisegesis, including the ones where people throw up their hands in disgust and say it is just myth.

I think that's a self-serving false equivalency. So, when you ask in post #42,

Doesn't science agree that the early earth was dark and surrounded by thick cloud and covered in water and formless (flat, no mountains and valleys etc)?
you manage to distort both science and Genesis. Too often discussions with some calls to mind that famous sage, Humpty Dumpty ...

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."​

The fact is that Genesis 1 asserts that birds were created before land-based insects. That is not history, nor is it allegory or myth. It is simply wrong.

The thing is that we don't know what happened in the beginning and we (or at least I) tend to use what science finds to interpret what the Bible meant.

Of course you do. At issue is the degree to which your theology coerces that interpretation.

Try this thought experiment. Forget the concept of "Bible." Forget "scripture." Simply take two or three good translations of Genesis 1-3 and, informed by the best of science, the best of ANE anthropology, and the best of philology, come to an informed conclusion about what it says and why. Just be true to the best rendering of the text.
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Yes true, and the Bible is consistent imo. BUT of course science may be able to see what may have happened but how and why are always going to be naturalistic answers in science when the real answer could be that God did it,,,,,,,,,,in whatever way He chose.
As are "how" and "why" important so is "who" for human inquisiteness/curiousness . If science cannot deal "who", it only tells that science is not a proper tool for it. Right, please?

Regards
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I think most interpretations of Genesis are eisegesis, including the ones where people throw up their hands in disgust and say it is just myth.


Scholars do not throw up their hands and say Genesis is a myth. They demonstrate it's literally mythic and like all other creation myths is taken from other sources. It is a creation myth rather than a history.
It closely follows other myths that are from a similar geography and time.

"Genesis is an example of a creation myth, a type of literature telling of the first appearance of humans, the stories of ancestors and heroes, and the origins of culture, cities and so forth. The most notable examples are found in the work of Greek historians of the 6th century BC: their intention was to connect notable families of their own day to a distant and heroic past, and in doing so they did not distinguish between myth, legend, and facts."
Book of Genesis - Wikipedia


"Borrowing themes from Mesopotamian mythology, but adapting them to the Israelite people's belief in one God, the first major comprehensive draft of the Pentateuch (the series of five books which begins with Genesis and ends with Deuteronomy) was composed in the late 7th or the 6th century BCE (the Jahwist source) and was later expanded by other authors (the Priestly source) into a work very like Genesis as known today. The two sources can be identified in the creation narrative: Priestly and Jahwistic.The combined narrative is a critique of the Mesopotamian theology of creation: Genesis affirms monotheism and denies polytheism."

"Comparative mythology provides historical and cross-cultural perspectives for Jewish mythology. Both sources behind the Genesis creation narrative borrowed themes from Mesopotamian mythology, but adapted them to their belief in one God, establishing a monotheistic creation in opposition to the polytheistic creation myth of ancient Israel's neighbors."

"Still, Genesis 1 bears similarities to the Baal Cycle of Israel's neighbor, Ugarit"

"Genesis 2 has close parallels with a second Mesopotamian myth, the Atra-Hasis epic – parallels that in fact extend throughout Genesis 2–11, from the Creation to the Flood and its aftermath. The two share numerous plot-details (e.g. the divine garden and the role of the first man in the garden, the creation of the man from a mixture of earth and divine substance, the chance of immortality, etc.), and have a similar overall theme: the gradual clarification of man's relationship with God(s) and animals."

Genesis creation narrative - Wikipedia

"As scholar of Jewish studies, Jon D. Levenson, puts it:

How much history lies behind the story of Genesis? Because the action of the primeval story is not represented as taking place on the plane of ordinary human history and has so many affinities with ancient mythology, it is very far-fetched to speak of its narratives as historical at all.

Another scholar, Conrad Hyers, summed up the same thought by writing, "A literalist interpretation of the Genesis accounts is inappropriate, misleading, and unworkable [because] it presupposes and insists upon a kind of literature and intention that is not there."

Joel Baden (Professor of Hebrew Bible Yale University) breaks down the 2 creation accounts and demonstrates they are contradictory. Straight up. His actual point here is that it's supposed to be this way to show religious pluralism which encourages discussion. It's an account of 2 schools of thought from this time.
His claim is that the different voices makes it challenging. Becoming something more than a prop but as something with some philosophical value. Interesting. No Gods involved however.

These are clearly the philosophies, thoughts and science of a group of people around 700 BCE.
They were just getting into monotheism, likely due to the Persians who were occupying their land but decided to allow them to set up their own religion and laws. We still see echoes of a larger group of Gods. Professor Francesca Stavrakopoulou is an expert on this period and explains it nicely in several lectures.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
As are "how" and "why" important so is "who" for human inquisiteness/curiousness . If science cannot deal "who", it only tells that science is not a proper tool for it. Right, please?
Paarsurrey, it is not 'who' but 'what'?
Religions do not explain "how" and "why", science does that.
But of course you have to understand that I am talking about the scientific answers for exactly what may have happened in the beginning and as the earth was established the way God wanted.
Science looks for evidence. Did God leave any evidence of his intervention in anywhere in Big Bang or evolution? Even one, eh?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Paarsurrey, it is not 'who' but 'what'?
Religions do not explain "how" and "why", science does that.
Science looks for evidence. Did God leave any evidence of his intervention in anywhere in Big Bang or evolution? Even one, eh?
Because it is within the domain of science and it is incapacitated to go beyond its limits. Right, please?
The truthful religion has remained engaged to ethical, moral and spiritual issues, which are the core purpose of religion, as I understand. Right, please?

Regards
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
@paarsurrey, science has limitations of logic and evidence; Abrahamic religions and those who established them did not have those limitations.
Religions give a lip service to ethics, morality or spiritual issues; all that is forgotten when the interest of the group comes in.

Paarsurrey, how come the image in your signature has the symbols of all religions but not the nine-pointed star of the Bahais. Bahais do not recognize Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the Mahdi. Is it in retaliation to that? Why are you two, the newest Abrahamic religions are at logger-heads with each other?
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
@paarsurrey, science has limitations of logic and evidence; Abrahamic religions and those who established them did not have those limitations.
Religions give a lip service to ethics, morality or spiritual issues; all that is forgotten when the interest of the group comes in.

Paarsurrey, how come the image in your signature has the symbols of all religions but not the nine-pointed star of the Bahais. Bahais do not recognize Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the Mahdi. Is it in retaliation to that? Why are you two, the newest Abrahamic religions are at logger-heads with each other?
"the scientific method is a powerful tool, but it does have its limitations. These limitations are based on the fact that a hypothesis must be testable and falsifiable and that experiments and observations be repeatable. This places certain topics beyond the reach of the scientific method. Science cannot prove or refute the existence of God or any other supernatural entity."
How the Scientific Method Works.

Right, please?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Yes, Paarsurrey, but if we ask science if it saw any evidence of God or soul, it can honestly deny that.
I understand ,Science has never and will never take up this issue, being not in its terms of reference. Right, please?

Regards
________________
"Terms of reference (TOR) define the purpose and structures of a project, committee, meeting, negotiation, or any similar collection of people who have agreed to work together to accomplish a shared goal.[1][2]
Terms of reference show how the object in question will be defined, developed, and verified."
Terms of reference - Wikipedia.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
God is the author of all truth, and that includes scientific truth. This post is NOT proposing that we should start with the Bible and then go looking for evidence to support it. Scientific Method is fine as it is. What I'm saying is that there is no conflict between those truths that science genuinely comes by and the Creator of the Universe.

For example, we know about the Big Bang. I see no reason not to see the Big Bang as the moment God created the universe. We also know about evolution. I see no reason not to see evolution as God's modus operandi for creating all the various life forms, including humanity.

Come on, folks. It's not like all scientists are atheists.


1. how do you know (or think to know) that?

2. where did you get this intel from? Because if we look at specific lore of specific religions, then we can see that the various creation myths simply do not match scientiific discovery at all.

You can say all you want that evolution simply is "the way" god created humans. You are free to believe that unfalsifiable claim. However, clearly the stories in Genesis do not match this truth.

You can read it into it, but you'll be forced to make arbitrary decisions about what is and isn't "metaphorical" and your standard for doing so will NOT be inherent to the scriptures, but it would rather be based on what we know scientifically. So really, it's just ad hoc "reinterpretation" in what seems to be desperate attempts at clinging to a belief system.

Off course, if the OT or the bible is not where you get your intel, then this doesn't fly.
But your religion label says "judaism", so I'm guessing it is.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
There are different ways to understand the Bible

And throughout history, the "way to understand the bible" changed whenever science demonstrated the religious "understanding" to be incorrect.

and science keeps changing it's theories.

It's called "learning".
And as noted above, religion tends to follow its lead every time.

Why should I believe every little idea that comes out of science?

Science doesn't demand "belief".
Now, why should you trust scientific results relative to the evidence that supports it? Well, the answer is in the question: evidence.

How trustworthy scientific ideas are, is directly related to the amount and quality of evidence that supports it.

In some cases, it's not enough to get the idea past the "hypothesis" stage. In other cases, it's so solid that the idea is promoted to theory.

Then there are those ideas that are so well-established that we might just as well call them facts (eventhough scientifically, they remain theories) - like germ theory, evolution theory, etc.

Your "real question" seems to be based on science being absolutely correct all of the time.

Not at all.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Science comes up with answers that cannot be tested and cannot be shown to be wrong,,,

That is simply not true.
Being independently verifiable and testable (and thus falsifiable) is requirement number one for any scientific hypothesis.

It wouldn't be a scientific model, if it didn't make testable predictions.


The God Hypothesis, well at least the Biblical God hypothesis does make many predictions, and they are called prophecies in the Bible, and can be tested

:rolleyes:

Predictions and "prophecy" are not at all the same thing.


If any of them do not happen, or did not happen then the Biblical God hypothesis can be thrown out.

I guess it can be thrown out then
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
>>Doesn't science agree almost with the order of the appearance of life forms on earth?<<
No.

Plants, sea creatures, land creatures, man. Sounds right to me.
Birds are the odd ones out, but new data keeps being found with them and it is possible that all God needed to do for the evolution of birds was completed at the same time the sea creatures were created.
I do not think microbes are even a consideration in the list.

>>Doesn't science agree that the early earth was dark and surrounded by thick cloud and covered in water and formless (flat, no mountains and valleys etc)?<<
No.

Earth may have been a 'water world' 3bn years ago, scientists find.
A Dark and Warm Early Earth - Astrobiology Magazine
See Job 38:8-11. Clouds made the early ocean covered earth dark and then God said, let there be light. This light was needed for photosynthesis and for warmth and the clouds and oceans helped keep the temperature up. But the cloud cover was such imo that the sun and stars would not have been seen until day 4.

>>Doesn't science agree that the expanse of the sky was formed and separated the water above the sky (clouds) from the water below the sky (ocean)?<<
No.

Evolution of the Atmosphere
It is a bit confusing for me but it looks as if when the oceans formed and the cloud cover was there, that is part of day 1 when God was considering things from the pov of the surface of the ocean on earth. The clouds were not just water but a mix of other gases and the gases kept forming and pushed the mainly water clouds higher. That was day 2.

>>Doesn't science agree that the mountains rose and valleys sunk down and the dry land was separated from the oceans?<<
Only in general terms.

General terms is fine. See Psalm 104:5-9. That is general terms, as is Genesis 1:9,10 which probably goes with the Psalm 104:5-9 in describing the land formation. There was a lot of water and the level of water fell for some reason, maybe the mountains were rising, it is a bit hard to tell. But the general agreement is there.


>>Doesn't science agree that there are vast reserves of water in the earth's mantle which could have spewed out to create the initial oceans and cloud cover?<<
No.

There’s as much water in Earth’s mantle as in all the oceans

Exactly. That means no actual prophesy and no actual testability.

Reinterpretation of prophecies when the actual event happens does not mean that.
If for example it was not realised that Psalm 22 was about the Messiah and His death, that does not mean that it was not about the Messiah and His death. Just because the Jews may not have seen Isa 53 as being about the Messiah does not mean it is not about Him.
Just because the Jews did not see Psalm 89:19-45 as about the Messiah and the Jewish rejection of Him does not mean that it is not a prophecy about that.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
But those answers are based on descriptions that we can test today. Also, the answers about events in the past *can* be tested by requiring consistency in the various ways to get those answers.

It isn't uncommon to have conjectures about past events shown wrong by more data: that is testing.

In the West the foundation of science came from Christian ideas that nature was regular and could be studied, that is no problem. There are things where conjecture is all there can be however and that conjecture can only be naturalistic conjecture, which I guess is fine but if God did it then that never going to even be a conjecture even after 1000 years of study and science determining naturalistic answers which cannot be tested but which are the best that science can do.

Sorry, those 'prophesies' are universally vague or made after the fact.

Contrast this to what science does on a daily basis. For example, I can predict that there will be a total eclipse of the sun on August 8, 2024 where the shadow of the moon will travel from the pacific ocean, through Mexico, into the US, crossing through the midwest. I can predict *to the minute* where that shadow will be at any time.

Religion has NOTHING even close to this type of prediction.

The Bible has predictions more remarkable than the predictions of where a solar eclipse will be and when. That is no more than mathematical calculations. Some Biblical prophecies are about someone knowing what will happen and when with no mathematical calculations involved.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
How is science showing that the Bible is correct?

In what archaeology is finding out about the history of Israel and in what other sciences are finding out about the origins of the universe and earth and life etc which agree in part with what the Bible tells us. (But of course science is still young and not all the evidence is in)

Atheists talk about the Bible because most of them were "formerly" Christians.
Christianity is still the largest religion, with 2.4 adherents, but it is not the only religion with a holy book....
There are 1.9 billion Muslims and the 1.2 billion Hindus and they each have their own holy books.

Much to the chagrin of Christians, they do not own God or God's religion.

My statement was rash. However imo the Bible is the most plausible in that all of it is set in historical setting which can be shown to be correct and with various events in the Bible shown to be true. The Biblical prophecies also show a God who knows the future.

Spiritual truth is eternal so that is still relevant to modern times. I was referring to the message from God and the social teachings and laws. I believe those need to be updated in every age because humanity and the world change over time, they do not remain static.

Certainly the social teachings in which the principles of love and compassion and mercy and justice apply change and no social laws can stay constant even if the principles the laws are based on are constant.
The message from God can change if it was meant to be temporary to begin with. If the scriptures show the message is meant to be the truth, then it remains the truth. If the scriptures show the message is meant to be for all time and apply to everyone, then the message does not change.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
For example?

It would be great if the posts on this forum had reference back to the post they were answering.
However science starts treading on the toes of religious beliefs when for example it starts giving answers to how life came to be on earth when science does not even know what life is and what our consciousness is but answers are always naturalistic answers that speak as if they have the answers.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Plants, sea creatures, land creatures, man. Sounds right to me.

Nope. Sea life, first land animals, plants, other land animals, etc.

Birds are the odd ones out, but new data keeps being found with them and it is possible that all God needed to do for the evolution of birds was completed at the same time the sea creatures were created.

No, that is actuallyNOT possible since birds were descendants of those sea creatues.

I do not think microbes are even a consideration in the list.

More the pity for the scientific accuracy.



Earth may have been a 'water world' 3bn years ago, scientists find.
A Dark and Warm Early Earth - Astrobiology Magazine
See Job 38:8-11. Clouds made the early ocean covered earth dark and then God said, let there be light. This light was needed for photosynthesis and for warmth and the clouds and oceans helped keep the temperature up. But the cloud cover was such imo that the sun and stars would not have been seen until day 4.

Irrelevant. Let there be light came well before the formation of the sun and moon. That is badly out of order for your explanation.


Evolution of the Atmosphere
It is a bit confusing for me but it looks as if when the oceans formed and the cloud cover was there, that is part of day 1 when God was considering things from the pov of the surface of the ocean on earth. The clouds were not just water but a mix of other gases and the gases kept forming and pushed the mainly water clouds higher. That was day 2.

Looks to me like you are desperate to get correspondence where there is none.


General terms is fine. See Psalm 104:5-9. That is general terms, as is Genesis 1:9,10 which probably goes with the Psalm 104:5-9 in describing the land formation. There was a lot of water and the level of water fell for some reason, maybe the mountains were rising, it is a bit hard to tell. But the general agreement is there.

Nope again. Most religions and traditions have mountains rising out of water. That is nothing special. The *way* that they rose is crucial.

Again, you are stretching badly.


Except that water is locked into the rocks. This is not unusual: it happens with rocks on the surface as well. But, getting water out of those rocks isn't going to be possible.

There is no liquid water in the mantle, just water bound chemically in the rocks.

Reinterpretation of prophecies when the actual event happens does not mean that.
If for example it was not realised that Psalm 22 was about the Messiah and His death, that does not mean that it was not about the Messiah and His death. Just because the Jews may not have seen Isa 53 as being about the Messiah does not mean it is not about Him.
Just because the Jews did not see Psalm 89:19-45 as about the Messiah and the Jewish rejection of Him does not mean that it is not a prophecy about that.

That's precisely what I mean about being vague. If there are multiple interpretations, there are multiple chances that *something* will fit by chance. That is just twisting things so that they fit, which can be done for any text making any claims vague enough.

Give *specifics* that cannot be misinterpreted and that might get you somewhere. Of course, they also have to be claims that are not obvious ('there will be wars and rumors of wars').
 
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