No one speaks for all Baha’is

[Jim]

Are there Bahais who categorically deny divinity of Bahaullah and still are considered in the fold of Bahaism?

Yes.

If yes, what reasons they give.

I don't remember any specific reasons. Maybe the same reasons anyone else might give, who denies anyone's divinity.

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't know much about Hindu or Buddhist preceptors, but in Tantra the "long since dead greatest spiritual Preceptors" still speak to people of today.

I guess I also call myself incredibly lucky that I knew my spiritual Preceptor or Sadguru 'in the flesh' as it were or should I rather think that I had created a very special samkara earlier to meet Him in person during this lifetime?

When you ask a deceased Guru a question, how do they respond, other than how you imagine them to respond? In traditional Guru-sishya relationship, it's quite personal, so questions are of the nature that they are only applicable to you.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Sometimes in Internet discussions I see people saying “Baha’is believe ....” Whatever they’re saying may or may not be a popular saying among Baha’is, but I’ve never seen or heard of anything that any Baha’is believe, that some other Baha’is do not believe.

Thanks for the information. I did once say something like "Thanks for the Baha'i point of view" but was corrected that it was the members individual view.

 

[arthra]

False.

ETA: Sorry, that was unfriendly. I disagree with you about that. In a search, I found very few statements from the Universal House of Justice about what Baha'is believe, and none more recent than 1968. I don't think that even those statements were true for all Baha'is, or even intended that way. In any case, in my understanding of Baha'i scriptures, statements from the Universal House of Justice about what Baha'is believe, have no authority.

"The provenance, the authority, the duties, the sphere of action of the Universal House of Justice all derive from the revealed Word of Bahá’u’lláh which, together with the interpretations and expositions of the Centre of the Covenant and of the Guardian of the Cause—who, after ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, is the sole authority in the interpretation of Bahá’í Scripture—constitute the binding terms of reference of the Universal House of Justice and are its bedrock foundation. The authority of these Texts is absolute and immutable until such time as Almighty God shall reveal His new Manifestation to Whom will belong all authority and power."

The Constitution of the Universal House of Justice - 21 April 1963

The Universal House of Justice is the Supreme Institution for Baha'is at this time and there are more recent statements than 1968!

You can search their website and see for yourself!

The Universal House of Justice - An official website of the Bahá’í Faith

Riḍván Messages | The Universal House of Justice - An official website of the Bahá’í Faith

The Universal House of Justice is elected every five years by an International Convention at Haifa...

Delegates cast ballots to elect Universal House of Justice | Bahá’í World News Service (BWNS)

 

[arthra]

What about claim of Bahaullah that he is G-d? Are there Bahais who categorically deny divinity of Bahaullah and still are considered in the fold of Bahaism? If yes, what reasons they give.
Regards

You probably should cite the "claim".. the source. Baha'is believe in "Manifestations of God". We don't believe God "incarnates" Himself physically.

"The Manifestations of God are not seen as incarnations of God as God cannot be divided and does not descend to the condition of his creatures, but they are also not seen as ordinary mortals. Instead, the Bahá'í concept of a Manifestation of God emphasizes the simultaneously existing qualities of humanity and divinity. In the station of divinity, they show forth the will, knowledge and attributes of God; in the station of humanity, they show the physical qualities of common man.[1] A common Bahá'í analogy used to explain the relationship between the Manifestation of God and God is that of a perfect mirror. In the analogy, God is likened to the Sun – the source of physical life on earth. The spirit and attributes of God are likened to the rays of the Sun, and the Manifestations of God are likened to perfect mirrors reflecting the rays of the Sun.[2] Thus, the Manifestations of God act as pure mirrors that reflect the attributes of God onto this material world".[1]

Manifestation of God - Wikipedia

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
Are there Bahais who categorically deny divinity of Bahaullah and still are considered in the fold of Bahaism?

Yes.

I don't remember any specific reasons. Maybe the same reasons anyone else might give, who denies anyone's divinity.

I have since found the following from the Bahai.org.

The God of Bahá’u’lláh by Moojan Momen

Is this Bahai.org an official website of Bahaism/Bahaullah, please?

Regards

 

[arthra]

Thanks for the information. I did once say something like "Thanks for the Baha'i point of view" but was corrected that it was the members individual view.

"What Baha'is believe" can be found at

What Bahá’ís Believe | The Bahá’í Faith

A Baha'i is always free to express their own opinion but we distinguish between what is a personal opinion and what is authoritative.

 

[arthra]

"Absolute existence is strictly confined to God, exalted be His glory.43

"For the mere mention of any one of Thy creatures would in itself imply an assertion of their existence before the court of Thy singleness and unity. Such an assertion would be naught but open blasphemy, an act of impiety, the essence of profanity and a wanton crime." 44

"This view implies that there is only a single existent Reality – everything else having therefore only a relative reality. Indeed, in some passages it is suggested that any reality which anything other than God appears to have is illusory...."

The God of Bahá’u’lláh by Moojan Momen

 

[paarsurrey]

You probably should cite the "claim".. the source. Baha'is believe in "Manifestations of God". We don't believe God "incarnates" Himself physically.

"The Manifestations of God are not seen as incarnations of God as God cannot be divided and does not descend to the condition of his creatures, but they are also not seen as ordinary mortals. Instead, the Bahá'í concept of a Manifestation of God emphasizes the simultaneously existing qualities of humanity and divinity. In the station of divinity, they show forth the will, knowledge and attributes of God; in the station of humanity, they show the physical qualities of common man.[1] A common Bahá'í analogy used to explain the relationship between the Manifestation of God and God is that of a perfect mirror. In the analogy, God is likened to the Sun – the source of physical life on earth. The spirit and attributes of God are likened to the rays of the Sun, and the Manifestations of God are likened to perfect mirrors reflecting the rays of the Sun.[2] Thus, the Manifestations of God act as pure mirrors that reflect the attributes of God onto this material world".[1]

Manifestation of God - Wikipedia

"the Bahá'í concept of a Manifestation of God emphasizes the simultaneously existing qualities of humanity and divinity" Unquote

Humanity and God-head cannot exist in one personage, sorry, it is an incorrect concept, please.

Regards

 

[oldbadger]

Sometimes in Internet discussions I see people saying “Baha’is believe ....” Whatever they’re saying may or may not be a popular saying among Baha’is, but I’ve never seen or heard of anything that any Baha’is believe, that some other Baha’is do not believe.

Hello Jim..........

I hope that you intend for this thread to be open to any, because I would like to offer a single idea....... OK?

Mostly every Christian group, Church, Denomination or following is united within itself by a fixed set of beliefs.

I was a Church of England Christian until I knew better, and nearly every week our entire congregation stood, and speaking together in unison, we recited the same Creed (Credo = I believe). The Creed was what made our Church as one with regard to belief and Faith.

And so, do the Bahais have something (anything) like a Creed? If so, could somebody print it up, please?

 

[sealchan]

I just can't see myself abdicating authority or responsibility for my own beliefs or actions. I dont think any religion that asserts it's own authority teaches is modern enough to lead us into a modern system of belief.

 

[arthra]

Another resource is the Baha'i International Community:

"The Baha'i International Community represents the worldwide Baha'i community, whose members come from every national, ethnic, religious, cultural, and socio-economic background, representing a cross-section of humanity.

"Active in various global fora, the Baha’i International Community maintains United Nations offices in New York and Geneva, as well as regional offices in Addis Ababa, Brussels, and Jakarta. The Baha’i International Community registered with the UN as an NGO in 1948 and currently has consultative status with the United Nations Economic and Social council (ECOSOC) and the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF), as well as accreditation with the United Nations Environmental Program (UNEP) and the United Nations Department of Public Information (DPI). The Baha’i International Community collaborates with the UN and its specialized agencies, as well as member states, inter- and non-governmental organizations, academia, and practitioners."

About us

has a variety of topics:

Documents and News | Bahá’í International Community

 

[arthra]

And so, do the Bahais have something (anything) like a Creed? If so, could somebody print it up, please?

I don't think we have anything quite like the "Apostles Creed". There are references though to creeds that I would offer:

"The world of humanity is one and God is equally kind to all. What then is the source of unkindness and hatred in the human world? This real shepherd loves all his sheep. He leads them in green pastures. He rears and protects them. What then is the source of enmity and alienation among humankind? Whence this conflict and strife? The real underlying cause is lack of religious unity and association for in each of the great religions we find superstition, blind imitation of creeds, and theological formulae adhered to instead of the divine fundamentals, causing difference and divergence among mankind instead of agreement and fellowship."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 81

"Shall man gifted with the power of reason unthinkingly follow and adhere to dogma, creeds and hereditary beliefs which will not bear the analysis of reason in this century of effulgent reality?"

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 83

 

[arthra]

"the Bahá'í concept of a Manifestation of God emphasizes the simultaneously existing qualities of humanity and divinity" Unquote
Humanity and God-head cannot exist in one personage, sorry, it is an incorrect concept, please. Regards

"In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man's spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man's Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 60

 

[oldbadger]

I don't think we have anything quite like the "Apostles Creed". There are references though to creeds that I would offer:

"The world of humanity is one and God is equally kind to all. What then is the source of unkindness and hatred in the human world? This real shepherd loves all his sheep. He leads them in green pastures. He rears and protects them. What then is the source of enmity and alienation among humankind? Whence this conflict and strife? The real underlying cause is lack of religious unity and association for in each of the great religions we find superstition, blind imitation of creeds, and theological formulae adhered to instead of the divine fundamentals, causing difference and divergence among mankind instead of agreement and fellowship."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 81

"Shall man gifted with the power of reason unthinkingly follow and adhere to dogma, creeds and hereditary beliefs which will not bear the analysis of reason in this century of effulgent reality?"

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 83

Ah ha! So in that respect, of Creeds and suchlike, Jim is correct. No standard unity of belief.....

The Christians made the mistake that Bahai has made, in one sense, they took their list of fundamental beliefs (Creed) not from Jesus but from Apostles, whereas you offered your suggestion not from Bahauallah but from his son.

 

[Vinayaka]

Ah ha! So in that respect, of Creeds and suchlike, Jim is correct. No standard unity of belief.....

And yet, here on this forum, it is indeed very much an echo chamber. Jim may well be the exception, with one foot out, and one foot in the chamber. Arthra is linking to the same resources you and I have seen linked several times before. I often cannot tell which Baha'i (talk about over-representation by demographic on these forums) I'm talking to, and therefore my response doesn't vary by much.

 

[Windwalker]

I didn't say that!

What would happen would depend on where, when and how they say it. The reactions from other Baha'is, including Baha'i administrators, could be anything from kind and sympathetic efforts to "correct their misunderstandings," to maligning and scolding them and insinuating that they're Covenant breakers.

So inclusiveness is dependent on a comfortable conformity of beliefs? Aren't there ever any serious challengers internally who keep things fresh and alive?

 

[Jim]

Is this Bahai.org an official website of Bahaism/Bahaullah, please?

I don't know what you mean by "official." If you mean, is it sponsored or endorsed by the Universal House of Justice or a National Spiritual Assembly, I don't know. I've never seen or heard of any of them objecting to it. The copyright notice says "Baha'i International Community." The Baha'i International Community is a non-governmental organization that first registered with the UN in 1948. I don't know how its members are chosen, or what formal relationship it has to Baha'i institutions.

 

[Jim]

I have since found the following from the Bahai.org.

The God of Bahá’u’lláh by Moojan Momen

Is this Bahai.org an official website of Bahaism/Bahaullah, please?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If you're trying to make Momen's paper into an official statement of Baha'i beliefs, I'll repeat: According to Baha'i scriptures, the only authorized interpreters of Baha'i scriptures are Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian. I've never heard of anyone claiming that any other person's interpretations have any authority, and I've never heard of anyone claiming that Momen is a Guardian.

 

[paarsurrey]

"In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man's spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man's Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 60

Sorry.
I was discussing about Bahaullah and his claims not Abdul Baha.

Regards