No one speaks for all Baha’is

[arthra]

you offered your suggestion not from Bahauallah but from his son.

In our view Abdul-Baha well represented his Father.

Bahá’u’lláh explicitly appointed ‘Abdu’l-Bahá as both the Interpreter of his teachings and the Centre of the nascent Baha’i community:

k174
"O people of the world! When the Mystic Dove will have winged its flight from its Sanctuary of Praise and sought its far-off goal, its hidden habitation, refer ye whatsoever ye understand not in the Book to Him Who hath branched from this mighty Stock."

I.B The faithful are bidden to refer whatsoever they do not understand in the Bahá'í writings to “Him Who hath branched from this mighty Stock”.

"Consider that which We have revealed in Our Most Holy Book: ‘When the ocean of My presence hath ebbed and the Book of My Revelation is ended, turn your faces toward Him Whom God hath purposed, Who hath branched from this Ancient Root.’ The object of this sacred verse is none other except the Most Mighty Branch [‘Abdu’l-Bahá]. Thus have We graciously revealed unto you Our potent Will, and I am verily the Gracious, the All-Powerful. 222 Verily God hath ordained the station of the Greater Branch [Muḥammad ‘Alí] to be beneath that of the Most Great Branch [‘Abdu’l-Bahá]. He is in truth the Ordainer, the All-Wise. We have chosen ‘the Greater’ after ‘the Most Great’, as decreed by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Informed."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 219-223

But it's true we don't have a credo that's recited regularly... We do have beliefs found in the Baha'i Writings.

 

[arthra]

I was discussing about Bahaullah and his claims not Abdul Baha.

The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, "His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all," hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence.

~ Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 46

"Consider likewise the evidences of divine omnipotence both in their Souls and in their human Temples, that thine heart may be assured and that thou mayest be of them that speed through the realms of His nearness."

~ Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 34

 

[Jim]

(in a reply to arthra)

The Christians made the mistake that Bahai has made, in one sense, they took their list of fundamental beliefs (Creed) not from Jesus but from Apostles, whereas you offered your suggestion not from Bahauallah but from his son.

In His book of laws, Baha'u'llah said "When the Mystic Dove will have winged its flight from its Sanctuary of Praise and sought its far-off goal, its hidden habitation, refer ye whatsoever ye understand not in the Book to Him Who hath branched from this mighty Stock."
(The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 82)

According to Abdu'l-Baha, that made Him an authorized interpreter of the writings of Baha'u'llah during Abdu'l-Baha's lifetime after the death of Baha'u'llah, so what Abdu'l-Baha says about what Baha'u'llah says, has the same authority as what Baha'u'llah says. I've never seen any Baha'is openly contesting that, but I've known some who didn't actually believe it.

 

[Jim]

So inclusiveness is dependent on a comfortable conformity of beliefs?

It's more complicated than that. Depending on when, where and how a person brings up an unpopular view, the reactions from other Baha'is can range all the way from kind and sympathetic efforts to "correct their misunderstandings," to maligning and scolding them and insinuating that they are Covenant breakers.

 

[Jim]

In a search, I found very few statements from the Universal House of Justice about what Baha'is believe, and none more recent than 1968. I don't think that even those statements were true for all Baha'is, or even intended that way. In any case, in my understanding of Baha'i scriptures, statements from the Universal House of Justice about what Baha'is believe, have no authority.

"The provenance, the authority, the duties, the sphere of action of the Universal House of Justice all derive from the revealed Word of Bahá’u’lláh which, together with the interpretations and expositions of the Centre of the Covenant and of the Guardian of the Cause—who, after ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, is the sole authority in the interpretation of Bahá’í Scripture—constitute the binding terms of reference of the Universal House of Justice and are its bedrock foundation. The authority of these Texts is absolute and immutable until such time as Almighty God shall reveal His new Manifestation to Whom will belong all authority and power."

The Constitution of the Universal House of Justice - 21 April 1963

The Universal House of Justice is the Supreme Institution for Baha'is at this time and there are more recent statements than 1968!

You can search their website and see for yourself!

The Universal House of Justice - An official website of the Bahá’í Faith

Riḍván Messages | The Universal House of Justice - An official website of the Bahá’í Faith

Are you disagreeing with anything I said? Specifically:
- Have you seen any message from the Universal House of Justice after 1968, that says "Baha'is believe ..."?
- Do you think that in the messages before 1968, when they said "Baha'is believe," that all Baha'is believed that?
- Do you think that those statements from the Universal House, about what Baha'is believe, had some kind of authority?

 

[Windwalker]

It's more complicated than that. Depending on when, where and how a person brings up an unpopular view, the reactions from other Baha'is can range all the way from kind and sympathetic efforts to "correct their misunderstandings," to maligning and scolding them and insinuating that they are Covenant breakers.

But that means that you are expected to agree. Convert to what others say, or risk being shunned. Is there ever healthy debate? Ever have different schools of thought to keep things lively? What you are describing here doesn't seem too inviting for divergence of opinion. Is there something missing?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is this Bahai.org an official website of Bahaism/Bahaullah, please?

Yes it is the offical website.

This link is the Library

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

It contains the 'Offical Writings' and 'Other' resources.

The Offical writings are the source Baha'i quote from.

Regards Tony

 

[Jim]

Yes it is the offical website.

Why are you saying that, and by what authority? What makes that website official, and what makes it "the" official website, more than any others?

 

[Jim]

@paarsurrey @Tony Bristow-Stagg

Okay, I see.

New official Baha'i Web site launched
20 April 2005

The new site gives visitors concise initial summaries of aspects of the Baha'i Faith, said Douglas Moore, director of the Baha'i International Community's Office of Public Information at the Baha'i World Centre in Haifa, Israel."

The site acts as a portal to the family of official sites of the Baha'i International Community including:
- Baha'i Topics: An Information Resource (http://info.bahai.org); a comprehensive collection of articles about the Baha'i Faith, its teachings, history, and community.
- Baha'i World News Service (http://news.bahai.org); the latest Baha'i news and feature stories.
One Country (http://www.onecountry.org); a news and features magazine.
- Baha'i Reference Library (http://reference.bahai.org); the authoritative online source of the Baha'i sacred writings.
- Baha'i Statement Library (http://statements.bahai.org); an archive of statements by the Baha'i International Community.

The Baha'i International Community will launch two more official sites in the near future: a media library that includes a collection of Baha'i images for use in publications and Web sites, and a glossary, which will offer definitions and a pronunciation guide to key Baha'i terms

As far as I can see, what makes it "official" is that it's sponsored by the Baha'i International Community, which is a non-governmental organization registered with the UN, and which has no authority of any kind over Baha'is. That still doesn't answer the question of its relationship with Baha'i institutions, and it still doesn't change what I said in my original post. When people say “Baha’is believe ...” whatever they’re saying may or may not be a popular saying among Baha’is, but I’ve never seen or heard of anything that any Baha’is believe, that some other Baha’is do not believe. It still doesn't change the fact that no member or institution of the Baha'i Faith today is claiming to have any authority over what Baha'is believe.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why are you saying that, and by what authority? What makes that website official, and what makes it "the" official website, more than any others?

As it is the Official Website for the Baha'i's of the World.

You will find it noted on top of this link page;

Other Bahá’í sites | The Universal House of Justice - An official website of the Bahá’í Faith

There is other Baha'i named sites that are not official sites and they use all the official Baha'i material, subject to the copyright as noted here;

Legal Information | The Bahá’í Faith

It is important this is known, as there is a website started by the covenant breakers that uses UHJ and say they are the official site. Unfortunately the Universal House of Justice was unsuccessful to prevent that happening.

This is the Official Library that was updated/replaced with Bahai.org - Baha'i Reference Library

This Baha'i library is not an official site, but it is handy - Bahá'í Library Online

This is another site that links to the unofficial site - (ARCH) Baha'i library online

I will provide a link for the covenant breakers site so people know this will contain material that has been altered by the Covenant Breakers. - Official Website of the Universal House of Justice - Note THIS IS NOT THE OFFICIAL SITE

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

And yet, here on this forum, it is indeed very much an echo chamber. Jim may well be the exception, with one foot out, and one foot in the chamber. Arthra is linking to the same resources you and I have seen linked several times before. I often cannot tell which Baha'i (talk about over-representation by demographic on these forums) I'm talking to, and therefore my response doesn't vary by much.

Echoes......... over the decades, actually.
I recently asked Bahais to enlarge upon any restrictions upon women........ they went away. I asked for details about offences which would carry the death-penalty........ they went away. And more...... This just goes on and on, but at the same time Bahais will parrot their policies whilst not making the whole package crystal clear.

It could be argued that Bahai is not a religion, more of a political movement wearing religious camourflage....... And No!..... I'm not starting starting any threads like that..... these threads over the last year+ have drawn me slowly in, wanting to show up Bahai claims and misinformations to the point where I have little or no respect for the name of Bahai at all.

I would now need to get my description of Bahai (compared to a year ago) checked out by the mods before publication, it's that bad.

 

[Jim]

I will provide a link for the covenant breakers ...

 

[Desert Snake]

A lot of fake stuff.

Preserve your spirituality

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I will tell you why I did decide to do this Jim. It is only Fair.

When I first started using the internet on forums many years ago, I used to search for Baha'i Writings. One day I searched for Writings and added Official Baha'i Website and not knowing any better, ended up on this site.

I did no read the site main page, as the search linked to the writings from this site. After some time someone mentioned to me that is was the Covenant Breakers site.

I welcome input why you responded as you have.

Regards Tony

 

[Jim]

I welcome input why you responded as you have.

Sorry. I don't know what to say, to explain it.

 

[Jim]

@paarsurrey @Tony Bristow-Stagg

Okay, here it is, on the official website of the Universal House of Justice, a link to www.bahai.org, saying that it's "The official website of the worldwide Baha'i community."

That's official enough for me.

 

[Jim]

@daniel @adrian009 @arthra @Tony Bristow-Stagg

I'm checking to see if any of you disagree with any of this:

1. When any person or any website says "Baha'is believe ..." that does not mean that all Baha'is believe that, even if it's an official Baha'i website saying "Baha'is believe ...."

2. When any person or any website says "Baha'is believe ..." that does not mean that believing that is a requirement for membership, even if it's an official Baha'i website saying "Baha'is believe ...."

 

[Jim]

... we distinguish between what is a personal opinion and what is authoritative.

- in theory, but not always very clearly in practice. Sometimes not at all when quoting the Universal House of Justice.

 

[Jim]

But that means that you are expected to agree. Convert to what others say, or risk being shunned. Is there ever healthy debate? Ever have different schools of thought to keep things lively? What you are describing here doesn't seem too inviting for divergence of opinion. Is there something missing?

I'm not sure what you mean by "healthy debate." I've seen a lot of discussion about disagreements that looks healthy to me. There are Baha'is promoting diverging points of view in books, articles and talks; and some of them have some influence on the thinking of others. Would you call that "schools of thought"?

Baha'i factions, online and offline, don't look any more or less inviting for unpopular opinions than any other factions I've seen. I see the same attitudes and behavior everywhere, on every side, in Internet discussions. The only differences I see are in the targets of people's animosities and hostilities, and in the excuses and camouflage they use for them. That includes atheist circles, and the identity factions of counterfeit feminism and social justice. I've seen lots of divergence of opinion in the meetings of Baha'i councils, and in the periodic community meetings where all members are invited to discuss community affairs.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@daniel @adrian009 @arthra @Tony Bristow-Stagg

I'm checking to see if any of you disagree with any of this:

1. When any person or any website says "Baha'is believe ..." that does not mean that all Baha'is believe that, even if it's an official Baha'i website saying "Baha'is believe ...."

2. When any person or any website says "Baha'is believe ..." that does not mean that believing that is a requirement for membership, even if it's an official Baha'i website saying "Baha'is believe ...."

Jim I would offer my thoughts as follows;

1)This Faith has many people from all backgrounds from all around the world. We are all different in many ways and nature and nurture has given us different frames of references. All of us would have read the writings and come to our conclusions.

Personally I see the website offers what are the foundation teachings of Baha'u'llah. They are the core teachings offered that will build the unity of the human race. Every person will see them in a different light and some they may not have yet come to terms with. All that is Ok. This Faith is organic and we are told that what we have to day will not be how the Faith operates in the future as we are only building footings and as many of us can not see the plan, we may be doing work that will need to be replaced. That is why it was always stressed that the Baha'i need to find true unity. How can we teach it until we first find it ourselves?

2) I see these are the core teachings and personally I see them all in a positive light. But they are not necessarily all a requirement to become a Baha'i. In my day the Assembly used to sit down with a new believer and ask a few questions, as it was important a few basic things are known. In the community where I became a Baha'i we had a Covenant Breaker, so knowledge of the Covenant was a very important aspect. Also at that time we had to acknowledge the Station of Baha'u'llah and we had to acknowledge we understood that Baha'u'llah had given Laws. With that confirmed the Baha'i Declaration card was signed and one entered the Baha'i Faith to start the journey of discovery.

In the end if one does not agree with the core teachings, I see it would lead to issues that may be hard to resolve for that person. I know many struggle with a few core teachings and become inactive as a result.

I hope that answered the questions, I have to read what you write quite a few times as I find it hard to put the question together and find what you are asking.

Regards Tony

Regards Tony