No overwhelming historical proof: Why I doubt Jesus

[oldbadger]

I'm curious. What other sources?

Josephus and Celcius for two..... neither were supporters of Christianity.
But the New Testament is not one book, it is several different, varying accounts, and each should be treated separately. By insisting that the Bible is ONE-BOOK Christians shoot themselves in the foot, imo.

G-Mark, thinned of the additions and hyperbole, is a brilliant account, warts and all, of Jesus's vocation, initiative and failure.......

 

[CG Didymus]

The Baha'i Faith confirms the existence of Jesus too and is an independent world religion and is not a sect of Christianity or Islam.

There are many Baha'i Writings about Christ and His Life.

But the main proof is Baha'u'llah. We believe Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God Who was All Knowing and His Knowledge is Infallible and He confirmed without a doubt that Jesus existed. If an infallible All Knowing Source of knowledge tells me something, I am in no need of further proofs and would be inclined to agree with it.

It's one thing to say He existed. It is another to say He's God in the flesh, the second person of a triune Godhead, that He died to pay the penalty of sin and to conquer some evil spirit-being, and, of course, that He rose from the dead. Do Baha'is believe Jesus is God? That there's a evil spirit being? That Jesus died and came back to life and then rose bodily into the sky? If not, then you don't believe in the Jesus being talked about in the NT.

There are many different translations but most of them are in harmony. The stories usually match and there are also other sources apart from the Bible which basically agree.

Problem, NT writers say Jesus died and rose again. Doesn't the Quran say he didn't die? Yet, both books are God's Word?

 

[JustWondering]

The acknowledgement of the existence of God is crucial to human survival, progress and advancement on this planet! Why? The crucial thing is we accept the guidance God sent to us through His Educators and Teachers.

The world, at any one time, without guidance from God falls into a state of chaos and confusion.

Our way so far has been two world wars with hundreds of millions killed including a holocaust, Vietnam, Korea, the Cambodian killing fields, the Tutsi war over one million killed and violence and drug addiction rampant, racism and immorality and child sexual molestation increasing and the list is endless of this living hell materialism and consumerism have created.

As someone else has already posted, the horrible things you've listed and more were perpetrated by believers in your god. Thousands of years under "god's" guidance hasn't brought peace to the world.

Baha'u'llah has offered humanity a way out of this mess.

At least let's give Baha'u'llah a fair hearing before condemning Him and God as we may be writing our own future by doing so. There MAY be some truth in what He says.

But if we say God doesn't exist so the danger there is we also ignore God's guidance which, if you study Bahaullah's Words are exactly what our age needs. At least give Him a fair go.

I can't turn off my rational mind, so I am incapable of deluding myself into believing that your favorite mythology is true, instead of what it really is, a bunch of stories made up by superstitious people long ago.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'll try to answer your question as best I can.

The Bible has been interpreted many different ways by man. So far there are about 3,000 sects of Christianity each claiming they have the real one. Let's look at what the Bible says.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Who is worthy to unseal the meanings you, I, priests, the pope?

Revelation 5:3-4

But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look inside it. And I began to weep bitterly, because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or look inside it.

So it clearly says no man not you nor I nor any man in heaven including the pope and clergy.

So Who was the only one worthy to unseal the Books?

Rev 5:5

Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has triumphed to open the scroll and its seven seals."

The version of the resurrection and other interpretations you have given me are not from this Lion of Judah so they are flawed no matter who claims they are true.

We claim that this Root of David refers to Baha'u'llah Who was descended through the root of David, Jesse, His father and the Book that unsealed the meanings is His Book of Certitude.

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/z/zinky_genealogy.pdf

Note that Baha'u'llah was also descended from two of Abrahams wives, Sarah and Keturah.

In it you will find the correct authoritative interpretation of things like resurrection and the station of Jesus. As it unseals the Books you get the correct version of Biblical definitions not the incorrect and very inaccurate one given us by man mainly through clergy.

“Revealed on the eve of the declaration of His Mission, it proffered to mankind the "Choice Sealed Wine," whose seal is of "musk," and broke the "seals" of the "Book" referred to by Daniel, and disclosed the meaning of the "words" destined to remain "closed up" till the "time of the end.”

Effendi, Shoghi. “God Passes By.” Bahá’í

http://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/bahaullah/kitab-i-iqan/

“The meaning of the Quranic version is that the spirit of Christ was not crucified. There is no conflict between the two.”

Excerpt From: Hornby. “Lights of Guidance.” iBooks.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

Jesus existed (as Yeshua BarYosef) because there are strong reports of his life, vocation and various incidents, written by both supporters and enemies, reasonably soon after his life. And they tend to give some support to each other.

Outside the bible? If so, who were these enemies?

I see you mentioned Josephus and Celcius. The Josephus account is questionable and Celcius was clearly dealing with early Christianity and so, his source was the same as that of Christians. It not a historical account of the person Jesus and does not prove anything.

 

[JustWondering]

How about....... Your denial of God exists in your mind, just like every other atheist's denial, because it is your (and their) mindset. I already know that.

Then we agree that people's world views exist in their mind.

See? a no-score draw.

Not really, my worldview doesn't include a magical man that was born of a virgin and could walk on water and resurrect himself from death.

Fair enough. Let's do it. Out you go and (on a dark clear night) look at all those stats and Galaxies. What is the reason for their existence? Since you don't have any more clues than anyone else, let's call 'the reason' 'GOD'?

Why are you starting with the assumption that things need a reason to exist?

No authority....... The authority is vested in Mother Nature, and you can fear her as much as any other creature.

Nature to me is just nature, I see no need to bestow a gender or personality to the natural forces of the universe.

 

[loverofhumanity]

As someone else has already posted, the horrible things you've listed and more were perpetrated by believers in your god. Thousands of years under "god's" guidance hasn't brought peace to the world.



I can't turn off my rational mind, so I am incapable of deluding myself into believing that your favorite mythology is true, instead of what it really is, a bunch of stories made up by superstitious people long ago.

Bahaullah's Teachings are very rational.

The wars I cited were political wars fought by governments for political purposes. Nothing to do with religion.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

The meaning of the Quranic version is that the spirit of Christ was not crucified. There is no conflict between the two.”

If so, then that would be a meaningless, redundant statement to make (in the Quran).

How does one crucify a spirit? When we discuss crucifixion, it is *always* about the body or else the concept holds no meaning. So, it is not a big challenge to dismiss this interpretation of the Quran statement. If the Quran is rejecting Jesus's crucifixion, then it means his body and therefore, we do have a conflict.

 

[JustWondering]

Bahaullah's Teachings are very rational.

I'm sure they seem very rational to people who believe in unproven, invisible, supernatural entities.

The wars I cited were political wars fought governments for political purposes. Nothing to do with religion.

Governments consist of people. Most of the people in the governments and countries who fought those wars were true believers in your deity of choice. Trying to move the goal posts isn't going to work on me.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Nonsense.......
Each one of us should be focused upon the 'Individual Investigation of Truth'.
Jesus existed (as Yeshua BarYosef) because there are strong reports of his life, vocation and various incidents, written by both supporters and enemies, reasonably soon after his life. And they tend to give some support to each other.

Yes I fully agree to a certain point but here people are disputing the historical facts so I have offered a Divine Source of knowledge that is all.

This is one of the main principles of our Faith

Independent investigation of truth

"Furthermore, know ye that God has created in man the power of reason, whereby man is enabled to investigate reality. God has not intended man to imitate blindly his fathers and ancestors. He has endowed him with mind, or the faculty of reasoning, by the exercise of which he is to investigate and discover the truth, and that which he finds real and true he must accept."
(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 291

What I'm saying is that when we have an infallible Divine Source that says Christ did exist, then regardless of what people say we can be absolutely certain of its truth.

To me the Gospels are sufficient.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If so, then that would be a meaningless, redundant statement to make (in the Quran).

How does one crucify a spirit? When we discuss crucifixion, it is *always* about the body or else the concept holds no meaning. So, it is not a big challenge to dismiss this interpretation of the Quran statement. If the Quran is rejecting Jesus's crucifixion, then it means his body and therefore, we do have a conflict.

I think you are misunderstanding the intention of the verse in the Quran. The Jews believed they had finally killed Christ but the Quran says they did not really kill Him as they failed to kill His Spirit which as you have pointed out is impossible. After all, it was the Jews that said Christ including His Spirit was dead not the Christians so the verse is directed at the Jews who claimed to have killed Christ.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm sure they seem very rational to people who believe in unproven, invisible, supernatural entities.


Governments consist of people. Most of the people in the governments and countries who fought those wars were true believers in your deity of choice. Trying to move the goal posts isn't going to work on me.

That's irrelevant as citizens were conscripted and ordered to fight these wars. Religion was never involved.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm sure they seem very rational to people who believe in unproven, invisible, supernatural entities.


Governments consist of people. Most of the people in the governments and countries who fought those wars were true believers in your deity of choice. Trying to move the goal posts isn't going to work on me.

So these Words are irrational? Please explain?

"Let your vision be world embracing rather than confined to your own selves"

The betterment of the world can be accomplished through pure and goodly deeds and through commendable and seemly conduct.”

I don't see anything irrational here from these Words of Baha'u'llah.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But that is your perception......
I perceive God in everything around..........

And Jesus, historical Jesus, probably existed, only not by that name. His name was probably Yeshua BarYosef.

I agree with you. I see everything around me such as nature etc as a reflection of God also.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Homo sapiens have survived without belief in your god since we evolved roughly 200,000 years ago. It's only in the last 3-4 thousand years that belief in the One God has emerged and we haven't benefited much from it.




All of these atrocities have occurred while belief in the One God has been widespread. It has not helped - most of these were perpetrated by believers in the One God. You're indulging in a utopian view of what the world would be like if everyone believed as you do. From the way Bahaullah's teachings come across, he kind of reminds me of this guy:

The facts state that 93% of wars throughout history were not involving religion.

Philip and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars, which chronicles some 1,763 wars that have been waged over the course of human history. Of those wars, the authors categorize 123 as being religious in nature, which is 6.98% of all wars.

The truth is, non-religious motivations and naturalistic philosophies bear the blame for nearly all of humankind’s wars. Lives lost during religious conflict pales in comparison to those experienced during the regimes who wanted nothing to do with the idea of God – something showcased in

R. J. Rummel’s work Lethal Politics and Death by Government:

Non-Religious Dictator Lives Lost

Joseph Stalin - 42,672,000
Mao Zedong - 37,828,000
Adolf Hitler - 20,946,000
Chiang Kai-shek - 10,214,000
Vladimir Lenin - 4,017,000
Hideki Tojo - 3,990,000
Pol Pot - 2,397,0003

Hiroshima & Nagasaki is not here either so you think humanity is civil without religion? The facts prove otherwise. There's too much history to go into on this forum but so many sciences and arts have been as a result of religion that are documented in Encyclopaedias and history books. Consult them. Universities, schools, hospitals etc and so much more were influenced directly by religion.

 

[CG Didymus]

I'll try to answer your question as best I can.

The Bible has been interpreted many different ways by man. So far there are about 3,000 sects of Christianity each claiming they have the real one. Let's look at what the Bible says.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Who is worthy to unseal the meanings you, I, priests, the pope?

Revelation 5:3-4

But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look inside it. And I began to weep bitterly, because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or look inside it.

So it clearly says no man not you nor I nor any man in heaven including the pope and clergy.

So Who was the only one worthy to unseal the Books?

Rev 5:5

Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has triumphed to open the scroll and its seven seals."

The version of the resurrection and other interpretations you have given me are not from this Lion of Judah so they are flawed no matter who claims they are true.

We claim that this Root of David refers to Baha'u'llah Who was descended through the root of David, Jesse, His father and the Book that unsealed the meanings is His Book of Certitude.

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/z/zinky_genealogy.pdf

Note that Baha'u'llah was also descended from two of Abrahams wives, Sarah and Keturah.

In it you will find the correct authoritative interpretation of things like resurrection and the station of Jesus. As it unseals the Books you get the correct version of Biblical definitions not the incorrect and very inaccurate one given us by man mainly through clergy.

“Revealed on the eve of the declaration of His Mission, it proffered to mankind the "Choice Sealed Wine," whose seal is of "musk," and broke the "seals" of the "Book" referred to by Daniel, and disclosed the meaning of the "words" destined to remain "closed up" till the "time of the end.”

Effendi, Shoghi. “God Passes By.” Bahá’í

http://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/bahaullah/kitab-i-iqan/

“The meaning of the Quranic version is that the spirit of Christ was not crucified. There is no conflict between the two.”

Excerpt From: Hornby. “Lights of Guidance.” iBooks.

Now matter how others interpret the resurrection of Jesus, the way it is presented and the way most Christians believe it is that he physically rose from the dead. I believe Paul even says that if Jesus hasn't risen from the dead that they, the Christians, are to be the most pitied for believing a lie. Now if you say that Christians made it up or exaggerated the story, I can believe that. But, to say Jesus was a real historical person and then to say that all the important things said about him aren't true isn't really saying much.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Now matter how others interpret the resurrection of Jesus, the way it is presented and the way most Christians believe it is that he physically rose from the dead. I believe Paul even says that if Jesus hasn't risen from the dead that they, the Christians, are to be the most pitied for believing a lie. Now if you say that Christians made it up or exaggerated the story, I can believe that. But, to say Jesus was a real historical person and then to say that all the important things said about him aren't true isn't really saying much.

Jesus existed and we revere Him and the Bible but the resurrection was not of the body but of the Cause of Jesus. Th truth of Jesus spread all over the world after 3 days of doubt by the disciples as to whether Jesus was just a man or more. It was Mary Magdalene who helped them understand Christ was from God. It took 3 days before that happened. His Body is lost but superstitions that a dead body rose is against science and reason,

Also the disciples did not meet Jesus after He died but each had visions of Him. I dreamt I went to Israel the other night and it was beautiful and so real but I never left my home.

With regards to things like Resurrection think about Mount Tabor where the disciples saw the transfiguration of Christ, Moses, Elias and the Father. There were other people on that mountain that did not see it and why were the disciples told to tell no one? Because it was a vision not an outward event.

Many of the things that happened in Christ's life are true but some are spiritual occurrences or were visions and dreams and did not actually occur in the physical world.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The facts state that 93% of wars throughout history were not involving religion.

Philip and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars, which chronicles some 1,763 wars that have been waged over the course of human history. Of those wars, the authors categorize 123 as being religious in nature, which is 6.98% of all wars.

The truth is, non-religious motivations and naturalistic philosophies bear the blame for nearly all of humankind’s wars. Lives lost during religious conflict pales in comparison to those experienced during the regimes who wanted nothing to do with the idea of God – something showcased in

R. J. Rummel’s work Lethal Politics and Death by Government:

Non-Religious Dictator Lives Lost

Joseph Stalin - 42,672,000
Mao Zedong - 37,828,000
Adolf Hitler - 20,946,000
Chiang Kai-shek - 10,214,000
Vladimir Lenin - 4,017,000
Hideki Tojo - 3,990,000
Pol Pot - 2,397,0003

Hiroshima & Nagasaki is not here either so you think humanity is civil without religion? The facts prove otherwise. There's too much history to go into on this forum but so many sciences and arts have been as a result of religion that are documented in Encyclopaedias and history books. Consult them. Universities, schools, hospitals etc and so much more were influenced directly by religion.

It doesn't matter that most wars weren't caused by religion - you're claiming that belief in the One God alone is enough to help humans survive, evolve and live peacefully but the fact that men professing belief in the One God have so often willing to go to war with their neighbours (who more often than not also believed in the One God) shows that to be untrue. And how many times does this need to be said? Adolf Hitler was a self-identifying Christian. Most people in Nazi Germany were Christians. Same goes for Russia when Lenin overthrew first the Tzar, then the Provisional Government. Unless of course you'd have us believe everyone magically stopped believing in God the moment these men took power.

How many lives have been lost to monotheists in the world? Some speculate in the New World alone, 100 million lost their lives from the European invaders and the diseases they carried. How about all the wars between monotheists down the millennia? How many lost their lives? How many died when Muslims conquered Persia? How many died when Muslims repeatedly invaded and tried to Islamise India? How many died when Christians were fighting each other in Europe for over a century because of sectarian differences? How many died when Jewish revolt were raised and crushed time and again because they couldn't bear to be ruled over by polytheists?

If you're going to count things like science, the arts, schools, hospitals etc as positives in favour of monotheism then you must also give credit to polytheist societies because such advances were gained from these cultures.

Regarding the atom bombs, it may have been men of science who devised & created them (as if they couldn't also have faith in a higher power), but it was men of God who dropped them, and men of God who ordered them to be dropped.

 

[oldbadger]

Outside the bible? If so, who were these enemies?

I see you mentioned Josephus and Celcius. The Josephus account is questionable and Celcius was clearly dealing with early Christianity and so, his source was the same as that of Christians. It not a historical account of the person Jesus and does not prove anything.

Now, how is the Josephus account questionable?
Are you saying that this account was written and inserted amongst J's writings?
Or are you suggesting that his account was just altered?

Please specify which of the above..... also, please consider that Josephus most probably knew Galilean soldiers and camp-followers who had known Jesus during his lifetime. Josephus had been the Commanding General of ALL Galilean forces, of course.


And Celcius? please don't tell me what Celcius' source was.... you have no idea, do you....?
Celcius wrote in the 2nd century, the same century that G-John was written, and although he did not personally know Jesus oral-tradition was strong and accurate amongst the peasant classes at that time. Further, I have never ever read any Christian account or description that mirrored Celcius's.

 

[oldbadger]

Then we agree that people's world views exist in their mind.

All our thoughts exist in our minds. OK.

Not really, my worldview doesn't include a magical man that was born of a virgin and could walk on water and resurrect himself from death.

Nor does mine! How do your three descrioptions disprove Yeshua BarYosef, Handworker in the second order of peasants, who met John the Baptist and initiated a movement for the peasant classes uin Galilee?
This is not about Paul's 'Lord esus Christ', this is about historical Jesus.

Why are you starting with the assumption that things need a reason to exist?

Because science gives reasons for all that exists today.
Want some examples? Do you need examples?

Nature to me is just nature, I see no need to bestow a gender or personality to the natural forces of the universe.

...but you gave it a name!!!!! You called it NATURE! Nature does not need a gender but by tradition we call her Mother, and I like that because it balances out all those masculine ideas. That's just me. Nature does have a personality......... many give Nature names to describe (her) character.
Trust me....... you're going to look Nature hard in the face one day.