No overwhelming historical proof: Why I doubt Jesus

[oldbadger]

Yes I fully agree to a certain point but here people are disputing the historical facts so I have offered a Divine Source of knowledge that is all.

What I'm saying is that when we have an infallible Divine Source that says Christ did exist, then regardless of what people say we can be absolutely certain of its truth.

Aaah! Now your source of knowledge is like a language that you (and other Bahais) can understand and believe.
But to quote your sources to other folks is like speaking to them in a foreign language which they do not know. It does not help much.

To me the Gospels are sufficient.

To me the Gospels are not sufficient. The Gospels have insertions, additions, alterations which we know vary from the originals. Some of the Gospels offer utter nonsense in their desperate attempts to align with ancient prophesies. The Gospels need to be examined, and where possible outside evidence and knowledge be found to support the true story.

 

[oldbadger]

I agree with you. I see everything around me such as nature etc as a reflection of God also.

Fair enough............. it's nice when people from various background, with differing beliefs, can agree....

 

[loverofhumanity]

Aaah! Now your source of knowledge is like a language that you (and other Bahais) can understand and believe.
But to quote your sources to other folks is like speaking to them in a foreign language which they do not know. It does not help much.


To me the Gospels are not sufficient. The Gospels have insertions, additions, alterations which we know vary from the originals. Some of the Gospels offer utter nonsense in their desperate attempts to align with ancient prophesies. The Gospels need to be examined, and where possible outside evidence and knowledge be found to support the true story.

It depends what you read. The Words of Baha'u'llah are of a very high standard because they are the Word of God. His Son Abdul-Baha explained in a much more simplified way more for the western mind.

His Writings also are considered scripture and there is an abundance of things about Christ, the Bible and Christian topics which have been explained in a unique way that makes a lot of sense.

 

[oldbadger]

It depends what you read. The Words of Baha'u'llah are of a very high standard because they are the Word of God. His Son Abdul-Baha explained in a much more simplified way more for the western mind.

You continue to insist that Bahaullah's words are the words of God, but that is what you believe!
A few million people believe what you believe, but many many billions would need some proof.
Unfortunately, the Western World is leaving you behind because of the emancipation of many minorities that you would continue to exclude from various positions and functions, and your ideas about a World Government (theocracy) are rather extreme........ and the Eastern World has little intention of 'updating' to your religion, because some consider it to be dread apostasy and others feel that they have reached far beyond in many ways.

Quoting Bahauallah to prove a point to a non-Bahai is pointless.

His Writings also are considered scripture and there is an abundance of things about Christ, the Bible and Christian topics which have been explained in a unique way that makes a lot of sense.

His writings are considered scripture by Bahais! And I would love to read a sentence or two about his ideas about Jesus. Not Christ...... Jesus! This thread (in the main) seems to be separating Historical Jesus from Christ.

For instance, what did your prophet write about Jesus that Mahommed did not?

 

[loverofhumanity]

It doesn't matter that most wars weren't caused by religion - you're claiming that belief in the One God alone is enough to help humans survive, evolve and live peacefully but the fact that men professing belief in the One God have so often willing to go to war with their neighbours (who more often than not also believed in the One God) shows that to be untrue. And how many times does this need to be said? Adolf Hitler was a self-identifying Christian. Most people in Nazi Germany were Christians. Same goes for Russia when Lenin overthrew first the Tzar, then the Provisional Government. Unless of course you'd have us believe everyone magically stopped believing in God the moment these men took power.

How many lives have been lost to monotheists in the world? Some speculate in the New World alone, 100 million lost their lives from the European invaders and the diseases they carried. How about all the wars between monotheists down the millennia? How many lost their lives? How many died when Muslims conquered Persia? How many died when Muslims repeatedly invaded and tried to Islamise India? How many died when Christians were fighting each other in Europe for over a century because of sectarian differences? How many died when Jewish revolt were raised and crushed time and again because they couldn't bear to be ruled over by polytheists?

If you're going to count things like science, the arts, schools, hospitals etc as positives in favour of monotheism then you must also give credit to polytheist societies because such advances were gained from these cultures.

Regarding the atom bombs, it may have been men of science who devised & created them (as if they couldn't also have faith in a higher power), but it was men of God who dropped them, and men of God who ordered them to be dropped.

What Baha'is are saying is humanity has now come of age and is ready to leave behind its blood stained history and establish an era of peace the like of which mankind has never seen.

A world civilisation based upon the oneness and equality of humanity founded on the principle of unity in diversity is the goal of the Baha'i Faith

The link here describes in detail some features of this new world civilisation.


http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/WOB/wob-56.html

 

[loverofhumanity]

You continue to insist that Bahaullah's words are the words of God, but that is what you believe!
A few million people believe what you believe, but many many billions would need some proof.
Unfortunately, the Western World is leaving you behind because of the emancipation of many minorities that you would continue to exclude from various positions and functions, and your ideas about a World Government (theocracy) are rather extreme........ and the Eastern World has little intention of 'updating' to your religion, because some consider it to be dread apostasy and others feel that they have reached far beyond in many ways.

Quoting Bahauallah to prove a point to a non-Bahai is pointless.



His writings are considered scripture by Bahais! And I would love to read a sentence or two about his ideas about Jesus. Not Christ...... Jesus! This thread (in the main) seems to be separating Historical Jesus from Christ.

For instance, what did your prophet write about Jesus that Mahommed did not?

There is a tribute to Christ which might very well be the greatest ever tribute paid by anyone to Jesus Christ. Would you like to see it?

 

[oldbadger]

There is a tribute to Christ which might very well be the greatest ever tribute paid by anyone to Jesus Christ. Would you like to see it?

Oh, please post it up.

 

[Deidre]

According to Gospel

Jesus was well known in the vicinity of Jerusalem in the first decades of the CE. He had grown up in nearby Nazareth. He had preached to large crowds. He had been to parties with rich folks. He had healed desperately ill people, even after they died. Then He made a big altercation in the Temple. By the week of the Passion of Christ, many if not most of the inhabitants of Jerusalem knew about Him. Many knew Him by face. He had lots of followers, including The Twelve.

Then He did something that got Him the ire of the local Jewish authorities. Likely the big deal in the Temple, but who knows. They hired one of His own to turn Him in. They turned Him over to Pilate. Apparently the evidence was weak, Pilate tried to foist the problem off onto Herod. Herod wasn't buying it, so Pilate summarily ordered Jesus to be tortured and crucified, the way Jewish terrorists/ freedom fighters generally were at the time. He was scourged to within an inch of His life. Then dragged naked through the streets of Jerusalem on the busiest day of the year(last shopping day before Passover) , carrying His own execution device, then nailed to the Cross to die in front of God and everybody. Then a Roman stabbed Him with a spear.
There is also mention of a solar event and an earthquake strong enough to damage the Temple. But not all the gospel writers remember that.

If the story had ended there(as it did in the original version of the oldest gospel, Mark), nobody would remember. Jesus would be just another troublesome Jew executed by the Romans before they leveled the Temple, and kicked the Jews out of Judea. It happened often.

But the story goes on. Jesus reappeared a few days later. Better than new, only a few scars as proof that He actually was the one crucified last Friday. Thomas checked it out for himself.
Given the facts, the place and time, and human nature, there are a few things a rational observer would expect.
The first would be crowds. A bunch of people saw that Jesus guy dragged through the streets to His death. Then they spent the next couple of days eating and hanging out with family, as people do on holidays. So lots of people, regardless of how they viewed Jesus, knew about the events of Friday. Jesus, Alive!, would be a huge big deal. A secret like that cannot be kept. People would care, even if they didn't believe in the Trinity. And Jesus was around for almost 40 more days. Then He Ascended to Heaven. The crowds would be wild.
People would hang on His every Word. They would want to know everything possible about His prior life and lineage and teachings and Everything. The spot He was born, His girlfriends, the spot from which He ascended. .... People would have wanted to know everything. And would have done anything to please Him. Throw themselves against the Romans in His Name. Erect statues and monuments, take in His Holy Mother, follow The Apostles around insufferably, pass stories about seeing Jesus's own sandal once with my own eyes to the grandkids...

But none of that happened. Nothing. It is impossible to find a credible reference to Jesus's existence before the Jewish diaspora. The Romans didn't notice. The Jewish authorities didn't notice.
Hardly anyone remembered anything until Paul came along. By then, nobody even remembered where Jesus ascended. A few decades after that, people started writing things down. But the writings were vague, not terribly consistent, and extremely incomplete. The earliest ones were pretty barebones, later ones had lots more supernatural details. But there is nothing like accounts of Jesus and His story anything like contemporary with Jesus.
Nothing.
And here is the biggest gap of all. What did The Risen Lord teach, do, or say during the 40 Days? Did everyone just forget? Didn't they care? It is like Jesus went on vacation during the most momentous time He was on earth! He could have explained Trinitarianism. Produced a code of Christian behavior that would exclude the Crusades, EuroChristian colonialism, and slavery in the Americas.(just to name a few)
But none of that happened. Absolutely nothing of interest is recorded as happening during The Risen Christ's 40 days with us fallible humans.

The remarkable lack of historical evidence, when it should exist in piles, is why I doubt that the character in the New Testament is more than a legend created later, for the purposes of humans. Nothing to do with God.
Tom

Why do you think that Islam addresses the topic of Jesus in the Qur'an? If Jesus didn't exist, why does Islam go through the trouble of dismissing what Christians believe about Jesus? Muslims don't believe that Jesus never existed, just that He wasn't crucified, etc. This isn't a debate type of question, I'm just curious as to your thoughts from a purely historical perspective.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Oh, please post it up.

It describes the true greatness of Jesus and what He did for humankind. You are very patient.

"Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished.

He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him." - Baha'u'llah

 

[oldbadger]

It describes the true greatness of Jesus and what He did for humankind. You are very patient.

I do like a lot of it, and Unitarian Christians might respect it more than Trinitarians, imo.
But (imo) few Christians, Muslims and others might place it so high as you.
May I........

"Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping.

I love this....... Yeshua referred to himself as 'Son-of-Man' often, but later Christians pushed this to 'Son-of-God', etc. Bahauallah immediately places Jesus as Prophet and not God. But, obviously, many Christians would be offended if they clicked on this. But I love it!

By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

Begging your pardon, but this is 'spin'. I am reminded of references that military mates have written for each other, filling the page but actually saying nothing which is actually solid.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

I love it! I see that Bahauallah didn't actually believe that Jesus really cured lepers, or the blind given real sight. He is offering the reader the idea that Jesus's miracles were metaphor! I believe that Jesus really could caste 'demons', cure 'blindness', revive 'lack of life', but in my case the actions, though real, were later enlarged with hyperbole. Bahauallah was very clever here. I like it a lot.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished.

See? The interpretation! I saw kit immediately.

He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him." - Baha'u'llah

Clever. Blessed is anybody who turns to mostly any one with face beaming with light.

But............. don't expect the World to see this as the highest reference of Jesus, ever........ many couls see it as a put-down, cleverly veiled.

But me? Yes. It's good.

 

[JustWondering]

That's irrelevant as citizens were conscripted and ordered to fight these wars. Religion was never involved.

No, I already told you that I'm not going to let you move the goal posts. You made a blanket statement that believing in your monotheist god would inherently lead to peace. Yet, civilizations whose populations overwhelmingly site belief in your monotheistic god continually get into war after war. So your statement/belief is wrong. Obviously and undeniably wrong.

 

[JustWondering]

So these Words are irrational? Please explain?

"Let your vision be world embracing rather than confined to your own selves"

The betterment of the world can be accomplished through pure and goodly deeds and through commendable and seemly conduct.”

I don't see anything irrational here from these Words of Baha'u'llah.

You're trying to move the goal posts again. Your teachings include belief in supernatural entities that have not been proven to exist and are highly unlikely to exist. That is irrational. Your belief in your god is no more rational than the beliefs held by ancient worshippers of Zeus or Ra.

 

[JustWondering]

Nor does mine! How do your three descrioptions disprove Yeshua BarYosef, Handworker in the second order of peasants, who met John the Baptist and initiated a movement for the peasant classes uin Galilee?
This is not about Paul's 'Lord esus Christ', this is about historical Jesus.

When did I ever say that it was impossible for someone named Jesus to teach what he is claimed to have taught in the bible? However, I do not believe in a mythical version of Jesus that was born of a virgin, walked on water, and performed miracles.

Because science gives reasons for all that exists today.
Want some examples? Do you need examples?

Science can explain the how and why of things. Science can explain how stars formed. Using the word "reason" implies intent to me. People have reasons for doing things, nature on the other hand does not deliberate on what to do, it just acts according to seemingly set rules.

...but you gave it a name!!!!! You called it NATURE! Nature does not need a gender but by tradition we call her Mother, and I like that because it balances out all those masculine ideas. That's just me. Nature does have a personality......... many give Nature names to describe (her) character.
Trust me....... you're going to look Nature hard in the face one day.

You're free to believe whatever you want. I'm free to disagree.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You're trying to move the goal posts again. Your teachings include belief in supernatural entities that have not been proven to exist and are highly unlikely to exist. That is irrational. Your belief in your god is no more rational than the beliefs held by ancient worshippers of Zeus or Ra.

Not at all. Simply exposing the falsehood of your rejection of God. The passages I mentioned you must also reject because they come from a God you say does not exist so you must also reject all these Baha'i Writings including things like good deeds, betterment of the world, a world vision, commendable and seemly conduct mentioned in these passages from God.

You are cunningly trying to divorce these good things from belief in a God and I can't let you get away with that. God brings these things so you must also reject His Words.

You can't have it both ways so either this God and His talk about good deeds, commendable and seemly conduct and us all having a world embracing vision is truth or not. If it is truth then my God is true otherwise how can a non existent God speak truth?

We don't just believe in God for nothing. It's because He brings wonderful Teachings like these.

"That one indeed is a man who today dedicateth himself to the service of the entire human race"

Another gem. So anything wrong with a God that teaches service to humanity?

Just useless banter about God or no God in abstract only gets us nowhere. Let's look at what Baha'u'llah brings from God and try and prove to me it's all nonsense.

God's Teachings cannot be divorced from God. It is one of the main proofs He exists. People love Him because of His Words. The attraction to God is love for good, justice, mercy and love that religions all speak about and people love what is good. You don't like good things even if they come from God?

 

[loverofhumanity]

No, I already told you that I'm not going to let you move the goal posts. You made a blanket statement that believing in your monotheist god would inherently lead to peace. Yet, civilizations whose populations overwhelmingly site belief in your monotheistic god continually get into war after war. So your statement/belief is wrong. Obviously and undeniably wrong.

The Baha'i World Community is a proof that the Baha'i Faith will bring peace to the world.

Prove that the Baha'i Faith is a cause of war after war.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I do like a lot of it, and Unitarian Christians might respect it more than Trinitarians, imo.
But (imo) few Christians, Muslims and others might place it so high as you.
May I........


I love this....... Yeshua referred to himself as 'Son-of-Man' often, but later Christians pushed this to 'Son-of-God', etc. Bahauallah immediately places Jesus as Prophet and not God. But, obviously, many Christians would be offended if they clicked on this. But I love it!

Begging your pardon, but this is 'spin'. I am reminded of references that military mates have written for each other, filling the page but actually saying nothing which is actually solid.


I love it! I see that Bahauallah didn't actually believe that Jesus really cured lepers, or the blind given real sight. He is offering the reader the idea that Jesus's miracles were metaphor! I believe that Jesus really could caste 'demons', cure 'blindness', revive 'lack of life', but in my case the actions, though real, were later enlarged with hyperbole. Bahauallah was very clever here. I like it a lot.


See? The interpretation! I saw kit immediately.


Clever. Blessed is anybody who turns to mostly any one with face beaming with light.

But............. don't expect the World to see this as the highest reference of Jesus, ever........ many couls see it as a put-down, cleverly veiled.

But me? Yes. It's good.

Old Badger that's an awesome assessment. Your assessments are fair and always very much appreciated. Many thanks.

Baha'u'llah also wrote His Own Beatitudes as part of a Tablet to the Christians. It is perhaps or will be the greatest challenge Christians and Christianity will ever have to face in their entire history.

Christianity, as we know it, could be brought down by something like this if people start to believe it in masses.

In it He challenges the sincerity of belief of every Christian, priest, monk and bishop. That He dared write such a Tablet is today very worrying for Christian leadership as it gains acceptance.

Baha'u'llah also wrote to the Pope, religious leaders and Kings and Rulers of the world as a Prisoner from His Prison.

 

[oldbadger]

When did I ever say that it was impossible for someone named Jesus to teach what he is claimed to have taught in the bible? However, I do not believe in a mythical version of Jesus that was born of a virgin, walked on water, and performed miracles..

There are a number of claims and possibilities concerning the conception of Jesus, but you have just combined claims of his birth to his walking-on-water and performing miracles. Jesus didn't walk-on water........ he absolutely flew!

The water-walk and many of his miracles did happen, but hyperbole and metaphor exagerated them.
I'll give you a simple example. You may not be interested in, say, rugby football, but pretend that you are reading a journalist's description of a star-player in action. OK?I

'.......... Jonah Lomu caught the ball cleanly, bulldozed his way through the English forward pack, and thundered down the right wing. The English full-back flew at him, but the massive inertia of Jonah steam-rollered Harry Wenlock to the ground and then all he had to do was let his momentum take him to his fifth try in the game.'

In a couple of thousand years, after a few newspaper scraps are found and juggled together, folks like you might be scorning such writings, there was no Jonah, they never used bull-dozers in any known games, nor steam-rollers, and mythical Jonah-Lomu certainly couldn't fly, nor could he summon up thunder.

Easy......

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Josephus and Celcius for two..... neither were supporters of Christianity.

The Testimonium Flavianum is fake - it's a later insertion. Josephus's only apparent mention of Jesus was one passage where he refers to them as "the so-called Christ" in an offhand comment.

And Celsus' writings (to the extent that we have them at this point) don't speak to the existence of Jesus; they speak to the existence of Christians. He confirms that Christians nearly 200 years after the presumed crucifixion believed in Jesus. The existence of early Christians isn't controversial.

 

[oldbadger]

The Testimonium Flavianum is fake - it's a later insertion. Josephus's only apparent mention of Jesus was one passage where he refers to them as "the so-called Christ" in an offhand comment.

Oh really!
Please confirm that you believe absolutely that the TF mention is TOTALLY a later insertion.
I wait in anticipation........... this is fun....

And Celsus' writings (to the extent that we have them at this point) don't speak to the existence of Jesus; they speak to the existence of Christians. He confirms that Christians nearly 200 years after the presumed crucifixion believed in Jesus. The existence of early Christians isn't controversial.

Wrong. Flat wrong.
Celcius' writings, those that were copied and that we have, did include mention of Jesus AND his disciples.
If you are unaware of this, and need to been shown it, please just ask.,

 

[StopS]

Oh boy, the same topic comes up every few years, the alleged evidence is shown to be irrelevant and everything repeats itself.

Then we get the die-hards who fight claws and nails about every little detail and word, as though this would provide the compelling evidence that these people really existed. As though this were important.
Neither Moses, nor Jesus, nor Muhammad have any evidence for their physical existence.

All we get are stories, written about someone who lived centuries earlier and was special in some way or other. Human figure-heads for their respective gods.
There is no evidence for their gods, so why would anyone expect more for their favourite humans? People believe the messages anyway, so why argue about physical existence?