No overwhelming historical proof: Why I doubt Jesus

[StopS]

Please confirm that you believe absolutely that the TF mention is TOTALLY a later insertion.

Of course it is. Anyone who has actually read the text can clearly see and understand it. Do you really require an explanation for something this obvious?
And what if this were authentic? Then what? You have one (1) text on the entire planet throughout history that mentions a Jesus and his behaviour worthy of a god. And? So what? Would a single reference to this Jesus make you happy? Written by a Jewish turncoat living in Rome who wrote roughly 100 years after the alleged birth of Jesus? Calling Christians a tribe and at this day calling Jesus another sad calamity. Come on, get real.
Another mentioning of the name has him as Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest. Then we have another 67 times, the name is mentioned, if I counted correctly. Is this what people would consider as being evidence for something? I doubt it.

 

[oldbadger]

Of course it is. Anyone who has actually read the text can clearly see and understand it. Do you really require an explanation for something this obvious?

Excellent! But before I respond I would like the member I posted to to respond.

And what if this were authentic? Then what? You have one (1) text on the entire planet throughout history that mentions a Jesus and his behaviour worthy of a god. And? So what? Would a single reference to this Jesus make you happy? Written by a Jewish turncoat living in Rome who wrote roughly 100 years after the alleged birth of Jesus? Calling Christians a tribe and at this day calling Jesus another sad calamity. Come on, get real.

So, actually, you're not really sure about your first sentences?
You're dates are wrong, but wee can handle that all together.

Another mentioning of the name has him as Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest. Then we have another 67 times, the name is mentioned, if I counted correctly. Is this what people would consider as being evidence for something? I doubt it.

Oh, Wow! You wanted caste iron EVIDENCE for a historic Jesus?
The most that we historic Jesus students can gather is tentative, giving us either a possible or probable HJ based upon the balance of possibilityy or probability.
You're shouting at the wrong folks .......... and we don't necessarily believe in a Lord Jesus Christ.
Now, why don't you go back and read all thlose posts a bit more carefully?

 

[JustWondering]

Not at all. Simply exposing the falsehood of your rejection of God. The passages I mentioned you must also reject because they come from a God you say does not exist so you must also reject all these Baha'i Writings including things like good deeds, betterment of the world, a world vision, commendable and seemly conduct mentioned in these passages from God.

You are cunningly trying to divorce these good things from belief in a God and I can't let you get away with that. God brings these things so you must also reject His Words.

You can't have it both ways so either this God and His talk about good deeds, commendable and seemly conduct and us all having a world embracing vision is truth or not. If it is truth then my God is true otherwise how can a non existent God speak truth?

We don't just believe in God for nothing. It's because He brings wonderful Teachings like these.

"That one indeed is a man who today dedicateth himself to the service of the entire human race"

Another gem. So anything wrong with a God that teaches service to humanity?

Just useless banter about God or no God in abstract only gets us nowhere. Let's look at what Baha'u'llah brings from God and try and prove to me it's all nonsense.

God's Teachings cannot be divorced from God. It is one of the main proofs He exists. People love Him because of His Words. The attraction to God is love for good, justice, mercy and love that religions all speak about and people love what is good. You don't like good things even if they come from God?

People can and are good, do good things, without a belief in an invisible, supernatural entity/entities. The god of the bible condoned slavery for instance. Do you think slavery is good? Spare me your "All good things come from and cannot have existed without my specific god concept" nonsense, because it's BS.

 

[JustWondering]

The Baha'i World Community is a proof that the Baha'i Faith will bring peace to the world.

Proof to members of the choir perhaps, not unbelievers.

Prove that the Baha'i Faith is a cause of war after war.

Trying to move the goal posts again! You just can't seem to help yourself can you? I didn't make any claims about your faith causing wars. YOU made claims that belief in your god, which happens to be the Abrahamic god, leads to peace. Your claim is laughably false.

 

[loverofhumanity]

People can and are good, do good things, without a belief in an invisible, supernatural entity/entities. The god of the bible condoned slavery for instance. Do you think slavery is good? Spare me your "All good things come from and cannot have existed without my specific god concept" nonsense, because it's BS.

Today slavery has been abolished by God.

"It is forbidden you to trade in slaves, be they men or women. It is not for him who is himself a servant to buy another of God’s servants, and this hath been prohibited in His Holy Tablet. Thus, by His mercy, hath the commandment been recorded by the Pen of justice. Let no man exalt himself above another." - Baha'u'llah

People are good but we have not been able to stop war and poverty and all our animalistic tendencies from spoiling our world.

We need a strong spiritual education to be able to overcome our baser instincts and establish things like world peace.

Only religion is a force powerful enough to achieve both the transformation of the individual and society. For this age Baha'u'llah has brought teachings and concepts to help us learn to put humanity first not our self interests and to establish a world civilisation.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Proof to members of the choir perhaps, not unbelievers.



Trying to move the goal posts again! You just can't seem to help yourself can you? I didn't make any claims about your faith causing wars. YOU made claims that belief in your god, which happens to be the Abrahamic god, leads to peace. Your claim is laughably false.

People are a cause of war and not religion. People have misused religion and also politics mostly to try and justify war but that is not God's fault.

God has always taught good not evil but men have not always followed His Ways.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

People are a cause of war and not religion. People have misused religion and also politics mostly to try and justify war but that is not God's fault.
God has always taught good not evil but men have not always followed His Ways.

Jesus even taught that MANY would come ' in his name ' but prove false - Matthew 7:21-23

The source of the wars and fights originate from fleshly desires that carry on a conflict from within - James 4 - Not from God.

Clergy have even misused the Bible in teaching church tradition, or church customs, as being Scripture when Not found in the Bible.
They have used the pulpit as a recruiting station so parents will sacrifice their young on the Altar of War as if it is the Altar of God.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Today slavery has been abolished by God.
"It is forbidden you to trade in slaves, be they men or women. It is not for him who is himself a servant to buy another of God’s servants, and this hath been prohibited in His Holy Tablet. Thus, by His mercy, hath the commandment been recorded by the Pen of justice. Let no man exalt himself above another." - Baha'u'llah
People are good but we have not been able to stop war and poverty and all our animalistic tendencies from spoiling our world.
We need a strong spiritual education to be able to overcome our baser instincts and establish things like world peace.
Only religion is a force powerful enough to achieve both the transformation of the individual and society. For this age Baha'u'llah has brought teachings and concepts to help us learn to put humanity first not our self interests and to establish a world civilisation.

Jesus too taught to put humanity first over self interests by his NEW commandment to have 'self-sacrificing love for others' as he did.
- John 13:34-35

 

[URAVIP2ME]

YOU made claims that belief in your god, which happens to be the Abrahamic god, leads to peace. Your claim is laughably false.

Because you mention the ' Abrahamic God ' is why I also claim that belief in the God of Abraham leads to peace.
First, God made a promise to father Abraham that ALL families, ALL nations of Earth will be blessed - Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18
To me, just because we do Not yet see Peace on Earth does Not mean peace will Not come.
The passing of time has now allowed for us to be born and to think who we would like as Sovereign over us.
There is an old adage that it is darkest before the dawn.
We are at a dark time in mankind's history when people have a selfish distorted form of love as described at 2 Timothy 3
That selfish behavior is in sharp contrast to the definition of love as defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6
Isn't it the lack of love that leads to a lack of peace ?______
If everyone on Earth lived by the Golden Rule wouldn't there be Peace on Earth ? ______
Since man can't direct his step to establish Peace on Earth, then, to me, God will have Jesus step in to usher in Peace on Earth.
We are nearing the time when ' they ' ( powers that be ) will be saying " Peace and Safety " but it is only a precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill.
- 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3

 

[loverofhumanity]

Jesus even taught that MANY would come ' in his name ' but prove false - Matthew 7:21-23

The source of the wars and fights originate from fleshly desires that carry on a conflict from within - James 4 - Not from God.

Clergy have even misused the Bible in teaching church tradition, or church customs, as being Scripture when Not found in the Bible.
They have used the pulpit as a recruiting station so parents will sacrifice their young on the Altar of War as if it is the Altar of God.

Very well put.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Oh really!
Please confirm that you believe absolutely that the TF mention is TOTALLY a later insertion.
I wait in anticipation........... this is fun....

The miracle claims and the like are certainly a later insertion. Whether it was a complete fabrication or had some genuine but mundane original material isn't really important to me; neither would be earth-shattering, since it seems from Josephus' other mention of Jesus that Josephus believed that Jesus existed but didn't believe him to be the messiah.

Wrong. Flat wrong.
Celcius' writings, those that were copied and that we have, did include mention of Jesus AND his disciples.

...because Jesus and his disciples were featured in the beliefs of the Christians of his time.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Of course it is. Anyone who has actually read the text can clearly see and understand it. Do you really require an explanation for something this obvious?
And what if this were authentic? Then what? You have one (1) text on the entire planet throughout history that mentions a Jesus and his behaviour worthy of a god. And? So what? Would a single reference to this Jesus make you happy? Written by a Jewish turncoat living in Rome who wrote roughly 100 years after the alleged birth of Jesus? Calling Christians a tribe and at this day calling Jesus another sad calamity. Come on, get real.

The parts about Jesus's behaviour being "worthy of a god" are the parts that are overwhelmingly rejected as later insertions not written by Josephus. Apparently, there's some controversy about whether the miracle claims were glommed onto an authentic passage about Jesus that didn't include any claims of miracles or divinity, or whether the whole passage was fabricated from whole cloth. I think that's what oldbager is getting at with his emphasis on "totally".

It's a question that probably matters to the people who are arguing that Jesus didn't exist at all, but it's pretty much irrelevant to the people who are just arguing that Jesus the god-man is the fabrication and allow for the possibility that Jesus the mortal itinerant preacher might be real.

 

[oldbadger]

The miracle claims and the like are certainly a later insertion. .

Thanks for your reply.
Look..... you need to stop wobbling.
At first yoiu said that this was a 'Christian insertion'.
Now you suggest that it may or may not have been a complete fabrication. This could show that you are not looking at this material objectively, but rather with some biased inertia caused by your own agenda.
I'm right...... yes?

There is no way that Christians would have chosen to insert their whole fabrication into this position!
I would have reduced FJ's fine write-up of John the Baptist so as not to overshadow Jesus-Christ and then inserted it just afterwards, maybe. But there is no-way that I would have thought that is was a good idea to stuff my write-up of Jesus amongst the troublemakers of the times. No way!
Which means that the empty space did hold a write up of Jesus, probably as a troublemaker, but that Jesus di exist.

Whether it was a complete fabrication or had some genuine but mundane original material isn't really important to me; neither would be earth-shattering, since it seems from Josephus' other mention of Jesus that Josephus believed that Jesus existed but didn't believe him to be the messiah

....you do realise that at least half of this thread is about historic Jesus, yes?
So if you are dis-interested in both Historic Jesus and Lord Jesus Christ, why are you wasting time on this? Of course Josephus didn't think that Jesus was a Meshiah, or God...... the position of the reference puts Jesus as 'trouble' in FJ's opinion, methinks, but it shows that Jesus existed.

...because Jesus and his disciples were featured in the beliefs of the Christians of his time.

Wobbling again.
You wrote that Celcius NEVER mentioned Jesus. One post (to me) later you are back peddling on that.
And anyway, you're wrong! Celcius mentioned stuff never mentioned anywhere else about Jesus and his disciples.
Celcius mentioned that Jesus was a 'peasant'. Correct! A peasant of the 2nd order, handworker, and trouble. Well I never!........ a bit like FJ's probable account! All made up, eh?
Celcius mentioned that not one, but two of the disciples were taxation officials. That's not just interesting, it's probably right, and mentioned nowhere in the NT Now where did he get that? Not from any Christian!
Clearly Celcius had an accurate and deadly critique of Christianity or Origam (spelling?) would never have bothered to copy his work to counter in contention.

I don't think that you're really interested in any of this, so there's no point in expanding on the import of Celcius's points.

 

[oldbadger]

Today slavery has been abolished by God.

You can select all the good things in history and say, 'God did that!', whilst selecting all the bad things in history and saying, 'God didn't do that!'.
Try this one. God is now tearing down the bigotry and hatred directed at the LGBTQIA minorities.
I can show this because the Church of England Synod (guided by God) has voted to ordain female priests and bishops.
And Homosexuals are now supported in same-sex marriages and legal-unions, and the priesthood has the confidence to declare its sexuality.

The Bahai Faith therefore needs to follow! God's will!.
Females should be allowed to sit on the Universal House of Justice and Gays should be recognised and allowed to sit on local and national assemblies.

But you won't. Your idea about what God does is rather like the children's game 'Simon Says!'.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You can select all the good things in history and say, 'God did that!', whilst selecting all the bad things in history and saying, 'God didn't do that!'.
Try this one. God is now tearing down the bigotry and hatred directed at the LGBTQIA minorities.
I can show this because the Church of England Synod (guided by God) has voted to ordain female priests and bishops.
And Homosexuals are now supported in same-sex marriages and legal-unions, and the priesthood has the confidence to declare its sexuality.

The Bahai Faith therefore needs to follow! God's will!.
Females should be allowed to sit on the Universal House of Justice and Gays should be recognised and allowed to sit on local and national assemblies.

But you won't. Your idea about what God does is rather like the children's game 'Simon Says!'.

Hi Badger.

We believe God is All Good and All Just.

In the Baha'i Faith our laws state that only marriage between a man and a woman is permitted.

Why women cannot serve on the Universal House of Justice will be known in the future but we don't know now.

Homosexuality is against Baha'i law so we can't accommodate it or same sex marriage.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Thanks for your reply.
Look..... you need to stop wobbling.
At first yoiu said that this was a 'Christian insertion'.

No, I didn't.

Wobbling again.
You wrote that Celcius NEVER mentioned Jesus.

No, I didn't.

It seems that the only wobbly thing around here is your memory.

 

[sunray]

Quote: from URAVIP2ME

Because you mention the ' Abrahamic God ' is why I also claim that belief in the God of Abraham leads to peace.
First, God made a promise to father Abraham that ALL families, ALL nations of Earth will be blessed - Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18
To me, just because we do Not yet see Peace on Earth does Not mean peace will Not come.
The passing of time has now allowed for us to be born and to think who we would like as Sovereign over us.
There is an old adage that it is darkest before the dawn.
We are at a dark time in mankind's history when people have a selfish distorted form of love as described at 2 Timothy 3
That selfish behavior is in sharp contrast to the definition of love as defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6
Isn't it the lack of love that leads to a lack of peace ?______
If everyone on Earth lived by the Golden Rule wouldn't there be Peace on Earth ? ______
Since man can't direct his step to establish Peace on Earth, then, to me, God will have Jesus step in to usher in Peace on Earth.
We are nearing the time when ' they ' ( powers that be ) will be saying " Peace and Safety " but it is only a precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill.
- 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3

(Since man can't direct his step to establish Peace on Earth, then, to me, God will have Jesus step in to usher in Peace on Earth.)
Well I've read the Bible too and it says that it's God that assures man's step; in other words He/She guides us all to a certain destiny (through the holy spirit and miracles), so the journey may be rough, dangerous, unpredictable and full of lessons, but the heavenly end is in sight for us all, a spiritual person can see this!

sunray

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Today slavery has been abolished by God.

Even happens in the US, which fought a war over it awhile back, so God apparently doesn't care all that much, does He?

We need a strong spiritual education to be able to overcome our baser instincts and establish things like world peace.

We need more input from the Teacher, then. For many people, God comes off as that professor that comes in the first day, tells you to read the syllabus, and then just comes again at the end for the final exam.

Because you mention the ' Abrahamic God ' is why I also claim that belief in the God of Abraham leads to peace.

Abraham's descendants used genocide to spread their culture. That's hardly peaceful. Even Jacob didn't do much when his sons killed an entire town because they claimed a sister was raped (whether she was or not is unclear, especially since the bible doesn't seem to care about her attitude about it anyway).

If everyone on Earth lived by the Golden Rule wouldn't there be Peace on Earth ?

Only works if people don't like having bad things done to them. You wouldn't want the Golden Rule to be followed by a masochist, would you?

Why women cannot serve on the Universal House of Justice will be known in the future but we don't know now.

I have a guess: the male founder didn't want it. Am I close?

 

[oldbadger]

Hi Badger.

We believe God is All Good and All Just.

In the Baha'i Faith our laws state that only marriage between a man and a woman is permitted.

Why women cannot serve on the Universal House of Justice will be known in the future but we don't know now.

Homosexuality is against Baha'i law so we can't accommodate it or same sex marriage.

..... which is why your faith will probably be left far behind, because full emancipation of Gender, Sexual Equality and Consensual Sexual Freedom.will hopefully sweep away the dinosaur religions that cannot review their 'stuck-in-the-mud' laws.

I have witnessed some dreadful results of Bahai Gender, Sexuality and Marriage rules. Not good.
And I have been told that Bahai law and punishment rules have some fairly terrible imports.
............ and you will be able to say, 'All Just!'.

 

[oldbadger]

No, I didn't.

Did so!

9-10th Penguin:
Post 258. The Testimonium Flavianum is fake - it's a later insertion.

Wobble!

No, I didn't.

Did so......!

9-10th Penguin]:
Post 258. And Celsus' writings (to the extent that we have them at this point) don't speak to the existence of Jesus;

Wobble Wobble!

It seems that the only wobbly thing around here is your memory.

Wobble wobble wobble.....